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Using Power from Phone Line to Power BS2 — Parallax Forums

Using Power from Phone Line to Power BS2

ArchiverArchiver Posts: 46,084
edited 2004-02-02 18:43 in General Discussion
I am working on a project with the Basic Stamp 2 and the modem, and I
want to provide power to the BS2 and Modem from the power in the
phone line. Can this be done and if so does anyone know how the
circuit would be constructed. Any comments would be welcome.

Comments

  • ArchiverArchiver Posts: 46,084
    edited 2004-02-01 18:32
    Keep in mind that the telecom companies are very sensative about what
    gets connected to their lines, and if you use something other than an
    approved DAA you may suffer their rath....

    -- Jon Williams
    -- Applications Engineer, Parallax
    -- Dallas Office


    Original Message
    From: tracenet2000 [noparse]/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=cO55nDxbW4hMgU9NMxJ0R7m5iNY6RsEYaYIXOSTSfuxaL6yfu_jjQGQlFvnT4jQVU8vRNoJY5qlUAFuTqe8]jbooraem@b...[/url
    Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 11:28 AM
    To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Using Power from Phone Line to Power BS2


    I am working on a project with the Basic Stamp 2 and the modem, and I
    want to provide power to the BS2 and Modem from the power in the
    phone line. Can this be done and if so does anyone know how the
    circuit would be constructed. Any comments would be welcome.
  • ArchiverArchiver Posts: 46,084
    edited 2004-02-01 21:16
    I think the phone company would take a dim
    view of your using their lines to power
    your equipment. That's what we have
    power companies for.

    Note the phone line can be quite challenging.
    The 'ring' signal is 48 volts AC.

    --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "tracenet2000" <jbooraem@b...>
    wrote:
    > I am working on a project with the Basic Stamp 2 and the modem, and
    I
    > want to provide power to the BS2 and Modem from the power in the
    > phone line. Can this be done and if so does anyone know how the
    > circuit would be constructed. Any comments would be welcome.
  • ArchiverArchiver Posts: 46,084
    edited 2004-02-01 22:28
    Something else to keep in mind about telephone stuff. It needs to be able to
    handle 700 volts, as sometimes the telco will put this across the lines to
    heat them up when they get covered in ice. I was told this by a NYNEX (Now
    Verizon) service tech a few years ago.
    Good Luck,
    Alan Bradford
    Plasma Technologies

    In a message dated 2/1/2004 1:34:06 PM Eastern Standard Time,
    jwilliams@p... writes:
    Keep in mind that the telecom companies are very sensative about what
    gets connected to their lines, and if you use something other than an
    approved DAA you may suffer their rath....

    -- Jon Williams
    -- Applications Engineer, Parallax
    -- Dallas Office


    Original Message
    From: tracenet2000 [noparse]/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=EPvz-TYB-H2JgImMO43LPym2J8nMQg8AOtud7wTdbHhMGu9XWthXVsEnO0n11SYgn_VVYef6h9n60hB1SQ]jbooraem@b...[/url
    Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 11:28 AM
    To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Using Power from Phone Line to Power BS2


    I am working on a project with the Basic Stamp 2 and the modem, and I
    want to provide power to the BS2 and Modem from the power in the
    phone line. Can this be done and if so does anyone know how the
    circuit would be constructed. Any comments would be welcome.


    [noparse][[/noparse]Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  • ArchiverArchiver Posts: 46,084
    edited 2004-02-01 23:03
    Ring signal is 96V AC, while on-hook voltage is 48V DC.
    If your ckt is not hungry, you can charge a supercap and get power later
    from it.




    Original Message
    From: "Allan Lane" <allan.lane@h...>
    To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
    Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 6:16 PM
    Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Using Power from Phone Line to Power BS2


    > I think the phone company would take a dim
    > view of your using their lines to power
    > your equipment. That's what we have
    > power companies for.
    >
    > Note the phone line can be quite challenging.
    > The 'ring' signal is 48 volts AC.
    >
    > --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "tracenet2000" <jbooraem@b...>
    > wrote:
    > > I am working on a project with the Basic Stamp 2 and the modem, and
    > I
    > > want to provide power to the BS2 and Modem from the power in the
    > > phone line. Can this be done and if so does anyone know how the
    > > circuit would be constructed. Any comments would be welcome.
    >
    >
    > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
    > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
    > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
    Body of the message will be ignored.
    >
    >
    > Yahoo! Groups Links
    >
    > To visit your group on the web, go to:
    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/basicstamps/
    >
    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
    >
    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
    > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
    >
    >
    >
    >
  • ArchiverArchiver Posts: 46,084
    edited 2004-02-02 01:50
    Phones that DO draw power from the telco have a rating in R.E.'s
    (Ringer Equivalents). Anybody know what amperage one RE represents?



    At 8:03 PM -0300 2/1/04, Pedro Drummond wrote:
    >Ring signal is 96V AC, while on-hook voltage is 48V DC.
    >If your ckt is not hungry, you can charge a supercap and get power later
    >from it.
    >

    --
    Chuck Britton Education is what is left when
    britton@n... you have forgotten everything
    North Carolina School of Science & Math you learned in school.
    (919) 416-2762 Albert Einstein, 1936
  • ArchiverArchiver Posts: 46,084
    edited 2004-02-02 02:54
    I think this or other group should discourage this type of help.
    It is not our business to steal power or ideas from legit sources.
  • ArchiverArchiver Posts: 46,084
    edited 2004-02-02 10:08
    From: "Allan Lane" <allan.lane@h...>

    > I think the phone company would take a dim
    > view of your using their lines to power
    > your equipment. That's what we have
    > power companies for.
    >
    > Note the phone line can be quite challenging.
    > The 'ring' signal is 48 volts AC.
    >
    Actually, it's acceptable -- just a pain in the...

    Back when PC's were big clunky things we had a client that wanted a PC built
    into a telephone. This bank wanted to woo customers with the option of
    online banking before the days of the Internet made alternative approaches
    more practical and convenient.

    The trick is the "ringer equivalence" rating for the device. Details escape
    me at this distance in time, but I seem to remember that the regulatory
    rules specify how many "ringer equivalent loads" can be placed on a
    residential line, a business line, and so forth. Something like that. In any
    case, it's a straightforward technical problem, just a paperwork hassle
    getting the approvals for the final design. It's amazing how much current is
    considered "nominal" when you're dealing with rules written around very old
    analog equipment.

    Again, it's been too long, but we were going to power a PC clone motherboard
    off the line without expecting anything but routine bureaucratic problems
    getting approval. And this was not a recent low-power clone we're talking
    about either...

    All that technical ease aside, I also remember that the fines for doing all
    this without regulatory approval were daunting. So I'd just grab a wall wart
    like most designers do.

    Gary
  • ArchiverArchiver Posts: 46,084
    edited 2004-02-02 14:00
    Many telephone related appliances are line powered, when they use little
    enough power to do so. The greatest problems likely to be encountered is
    that there is only really power there when the phone rings, and you do not
    want to interfere with voice.

    Original Message
    From: "Allan Lane" <allan.lane@h...>
    To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
    Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 4:16 PM
    Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Using Power from Phone Line to Power BS2


    > I think the phone company would take a dim
    > view of your using their lines to power
    > your equipment. That's what we have
    > power companies for.
    >
    > Note the phone line can be quite challenging.
    > The 'ring' signal is 48 volts AC.
    >
    > --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "tracenet2000" <jbooraem@b...>
    > wrote:
    > > I am working on a project with the Basic Stamp 2 and the modem, and
    > I
    > > want to provide power to the BS2 and Modem from the power in the
    > > phone line. Can this be done and if so does anyone know how the
    > > circuit would be constructed. Any comments would be welcome.
    >
    >
    > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
    > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
    > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
    Body of the message will be ignored.
    >
    >
    > Yahoo! Groups Links
    >
    > To visit your group on the web, go to:
    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/basicstamps/
    >
    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
    >
    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
    > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
    >
    >
    >
  • ArchiverArchiver Posts: 46,084
    edited 2004-02-02 15:13
    --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "tracenet2000" <jbooraem@b...>
    wrote:
    > I am working on a project with the Basic Stamp 2 and the modem, and
    I
    > want to provide power to the BS2 and Modem from the power in the
    > phone line. Can this be done and if so does anyone know how the
    > circuit would be constructed. Any comments would be welcome.

    Thank you for the input and I think I will supply my own voltage to
    the project. I just wanted to look at all possible ways to power the
    BS2. Again thanks for your help.
  • ArchiverArchiver Posts: 46,084
    edited 2004-02-02 15:31
    The biggest problem in using this technique is the average stamp project draws
    10 to 20 ma or more and this would load the line to
    an "off-hook" condition.
    Telephone lines are typically 48vdc 20ma. current loops, the signal that a
    device is in the "off-hook" state is when the current
    draw causes the voltage to drop to 32vdc or less which occurs at less than 10ma.
    KF4HAZ - Lonnie

    Original Message
    From: "Joshua Simmons - CK" <simmonsj2000@h...>
    To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
    Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 8:00 AM
    Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Using Power from Phone Line to Power BS2


    > Many telephone related appliances are line powered, when they use little
    > enough power to do so. The greatest problems likely to be encountered is
    > that there is only really power there when the phone rings, and you do not
    > want to interfere with voice.
    >
    >
    Original Message
    > From: "Allan Lane" <allan.lane@h...>
    > To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
    > Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 4:16 PM
    > Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Using Power from Phone Line to Power BS2
    >
    >
    > > I think the phone company would take a dim
    > > view of your using their lines to power
    > > your equipment. That's what we have
    > > power companies for.
    > >
    > > Note the phone line can be quite challenging.
    > > The 'ring' signal is 48 volts AC.
    > >
    > > --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "tracenet2000" <jbooraem@b...>
    > > wrote:
    > > > I am working on a project with the Basic Stamp 2 and the modem, and
    > > I
    > > > want to provide power to the BS2 and Modem from the power in the
    > > > phone line. Can this be done and if so does anyone know how the
    > > > circuit would be constructed. Any comments would be welcome.
  • ArchiverArchiver Posts: 46,084
    edited 2004-02-02 17:07
    The Art of Electronics, Horowitz and Hill, discusses
    parasitizing phone lines. It's fun to fool around with,
    but for real world apps uaually more trouble than it's
    worth.

    regards, Jack

    > I am working on a project with the Basic Stamp 2 and the modem, and I
    > want to provide power to the BS2 and Modem from the power in the
    > phone line. Can this be done and if so does anyone know how the
    > circuit would be constructed. Any comments would be welcome.
  • ArchiverArchiver Posts: 46,084
    edited 2004-02-02 17:36
    Hello from Gregg C Levine
    I agree. Besides in this country, the voltages on the phone line are,
    48V dc for the on hook circuitry, and the ringer voltages are 96-110
    AC. And the 48V dc is also used as a Talk circuitry voltage as well.
    Acceptable DAAs are typically made by Clare, and several others.
    Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon@w...
    "The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
    "Use the Force, Luke."· Obi-Wan Kenobi
    (This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi )
    (This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )



    >
    Original Message
    > From: Pedro Drummond [noparse]/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=sU3mJJ5LEo00_55-1b5ImlJL3Jd1p0iPPwxFemKJxTJivqjwDc_C8AUY1C_bFxIHW2vhkWkcxoCqHAE]prd@d...[/url
    > Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 1:12 PM
    > To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
    > Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Using Power from Phone Line to Power
    BS2
    >
    > No one is stealing power or ideas from no one. Phone lines are a
    path to the
    > world right on the wall, near each one of us. Too important to be
    neglected
    > when talking about electronics.
    >
    > If you respect phone line limits, which are imposed by telephone
    companies
    > (and supported by law), you are designing seriously and will get
    approval.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    Original Message
    > From: "Albert Catano" <acatano2002@y...>
    > To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
    > Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 11:54 PM
    > Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Using Power from Phone Line to Power
    BS2
    >
    >
    > > I think this or other group should discourage this type of help.
    > > It is not our business to steal power or ideas from legit sources.
    > >
    > >
  • ArchiverArchiver Posts: 46,084
    edited 2004-02-02 18:12
    No one is stealing power or ideas from no one. Phone lines are a path to the
    world right on the wall, near each one of us. Too important to be neglected
    when talking about electronics.

    If you respect phone line limits, which are imposed by telephone companies
    (and supported by law), you are designing seriously and will get approval.



    Original Message
    From: "Albert Catano" <acatano2002@y...>
    To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
    Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 11:54 PM
    Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Using Power from Phone Line to Power BS2


    > I think this or other group should discourage this type of help.
    > It is not our business to steal power or ideas from legit sources.
    >
    >
    > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
    > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
    > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
    Body of the message will be ignored.
    >
    >
    > Yahoo! Groups Links
    >
    > To visit your group on the web, go to:
    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/basicstamps/
    >
    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
    >
    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
    > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
    >
    >
    >
    >
  • ArchiverArchiver Posts: 46,084
    edited 2004-02-02 18:43
    yes while the onhook voltage is around 48v the off
    hook drops to around 9v yes with a diode to rectify
    and block the ac ring voltage it will all depend on
    how many devices are connected to the line ma bell
    only lets you have so much current before you kill
    the line plus if the resistence goes to hi there
    it goes good luck [noparse]:)[/noparse]
    --- Gregg C Levine <hansolofalcon@w...>
    wrote:
    > Hello from Gregg C Levine
    > I agree. Besides in this country, the voltages on
    > the phone line are,
    > 48V dc for the on hook circuitry, and the ringer
    > voltages are 96-110
    > AC. And the 48V dc is also used as a Talk circuitry
    > voltage as well.
    > Acceptable DAAs are typically made by Clare, and
    > several others.
    >
    > Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon@w...
    >
    > "The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan
    > Kenobi
    > "Use the Force, Luke."· Obi-Wan Kenobi
    > (This company dedicates this E-Mail to General
    > Obi-Wan Kenobi )
    > (This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )
    >
    >
    >
    > >
    Original Message
    > > From: Pedro Drummond [noparse]/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=q2qXvsWfPsYkX8huZKjlm0wYHJTYw5eqKHgZEJ3TLQE44_PpGgFip_qZH-GZOXBQgx_lAiIRq_CU]prd@d...[/url
    > > Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 1:12 PM
    > > To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
    > > Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Using Power from
    > Phone Line to Power
    > BS2
    > >
    > > No one is stealing power or ideas from no one.
    > Phone lines are a
    > path to the
    > > world right on the wall, near each one of us. Too
    > important to be
    > neglected
    > > when talking about electronics.
    > >
    > > If you respect phone line limits, which are
    > imposed by telephone



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