OT: PC Board Etching
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Posts: 46,084
I'm looking to proto a board at minimum cost. Any input on the
following would be appreciated:
a) anyone know where I can "walk in off the street" and buy ferric
chloride or amonium persulfate? I am in Cleveland, Detroit, Chicago,
and Cincinnati often . . .
b) anyone have success/failures with the hydrochloric acid / hydrogen
peroxide / water etchant strategy? Or any other readily avialable
off the shelf chemicals to make a prototype board?
Thanks . . . sorry for the OT but this board has the right folks
IMO.
following would be appreciated:
a) anyone know where I can "walk in off the street" and buy ferric
chloride or amonium persulfate? I am in Cleveland, Detroit, Chicago,
and Cincinnati often . . .
b) anyone have success/failures with the hydrochloric acid / hydrogen
peroxide / water etchant strategy? Or any other readily avialable
off the shelf chemicals to make a prototype board?
Thanks . . . sorry for the OT but this board has the right folks
IMO.
Comments
as a stocked item. Don't know if that's still the case, since they seem to
be rapidly cutting back on components and hobbyist stuff.
Our local "real" electronics store has a good selection of boards,
chemicals, and equipment. You shouldn't have any trouble finding supplies
in the cities you mentioned.
Randy
www.glitchbuster.com
> I'm looking to proto a board at minimum cost. Any input on the
> following would be appreciated:
>
> a) anyone know where I can "walk in off the street" and buy ferric
> chloride or amonium persulfate? I am in Cleveland, Detroit, Chicago,
> and Cincinnati often . . .
>
> b) anyone have success/failures with the hydrochloric acid / hydrogen
> peroxide / water etchant strategy? Or any other readily avialable
> off the shelf chemicals to make a prototype board?
>
> Thanks . . . sorry for the OT but this board has the right folks
> IMO.
fly these chemicals!
Be sure to check out http://www.wd5gnr.com/pcb.htm
Also, I don't know how big a secret this is, but my next book is:
http://tinyurl.com/hisc
Not out yet. It contains a copy of Eagle, and details on using Eagle,
building your own (laser and photolithography), and sending out boards
to a service bureau, among other things.
It should be out any day now!
Al Williams
AWC
* Control 8 servos at once
http://www.al-williams.com/awce/pak8.htm
>
Original Message
> From: jrem123 [noparse]/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=P9kJe3deDhDUHVUSQEsjfxzfMO3TAuRoNEsJdHYECp5hnAlCooWb7OmHDslOEtDQ3Frtz4THkMv4AA]jrem123@y...[/url
> Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2003 8:59 PM
> To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] OT: PC Board Etching
>
>
> I'm looking to proto a board at minimum cost. Any input on the
> following would be appreciated:
>
> a) anyone know where I can "walk in off the street" and buy ferric
> chloride or amonium persulfate? I am in Cleveland, Detroit, Chicago,
> and Cincinnati often . . .
>
> b) anyone have success/failures with the hydrochloric acid / hydrogen
> peroxide / water etchant strategy? Or any other readily avialable
> off the shelf chemicals to make a prototype board?
>
> Thanks . . . sorry for the OT but this board has the right folks
> IMO.
>
>
>
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the
> Subject and Body of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
a 2.5 x 3 board, ferrice chloirde, resist pen and in a plastic case
that doubled as a container to etch in.
The pen was dried out, but a sharpie did just fine.
If you're new to board design, Eagle has a decent package free
limited pin count. WinQcad seems to be similar, and seems to be
simplier, but the first registered version, 500 pin is only 100 bux.
Dave
--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "jrem123" <jrem123@y...> wrote:
> I'm looking to proto a board at minimum cost. Any input on the
> following would be appreciated:
>
> a) anyone know where I can "walk in off the street" and buy ferric
> chloride or amonium persulfate? I am in Cleveland, Detroit,
Chicago,
> and Cincinnati often . . .
>
> b) anyone have success/failures with the hydrochloric acid /
hydrogen
> peroxide / water etchant strategy? Or any other readily avialable
> off the shelf chemicals to make a prototype board?
>
> Thanks . . . sorry for the OT but this board has the right folks
> IMO.
jrem123@y... writes:
a) anyone know where I can "walk in off the street" and buy ferric
chloride or amonium persulfate? I am in Cleveland, Detroit, Chicago,
and Cincinnati often . . .
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Considering your time involved making a board, drilling STRAIGHT holes etc,
you may want to consider www.expresspcb.com
Free layout software that is easy to use. For $62 you get three double sided
2.5 X 3.8 inch boards in 3 working days.
[noparse][[/noparse]Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
artwork is accurate prior to ordering any pro boards, hence the
prototype. I recall buying ferric chloride from Rat Shack in the 70's,
but alas as Al or Dave mentioned, they don't sell much for the hobby
minded anymore.
And, yes, I realize I can't fly with that stuff . . . my whole point
is to try to beat the hazardous material shipping fee, it's like $50
for $5 worth of product. I've just had a hard time trying to nail down
a biz that will sell retail off-the-street.
Regards, John.
<snip>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> Considering your time involved making a board, drilling STRAIGHT
> holes etc,
>
> you may want to consider www.expresspcb.com
>
> Free layout software that is easy to use. For $62 you get three
> double sided
> 2.5 X 3.8 inch boards in 3 working days.
>
>
> [noparse][[/noparse]Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject
> and Body of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com
> following would be appreciated:
>
> a) anyone know where I can "walk in off the street" and buy ferric
> chloride or amonium persulfate? I am in Cleveland, Detroit, Chicago,
> and Cincinnati often . . .
>
> b) anyone have success/failures with the hydrochloric acid / hydrogen
> peroxide / water etchant strategy? Or any other readily avialable
> off the shelf chemicals to make a prototype board?
I bought Sodium Persulfate from Kepro (now owned by D&L). It's cleaner and less
noxious than Ferric Chloride.
Paul
wrote:
> thanks to all for the replies . . . I really want to make sure my
> artwork is accurate prior to ordering any pro boards, hence the
> prototype. I recall buying ferric chloride from Rat Shack in the
70's,
> but alas as Al or Dave mentioned, they don't sell much for the hobby
> minded anymore.
>
> And, yes, I realize I can't fly with that stuff . . . my whole
point
> is to try to beat the hazardous material shipping fee, it's like $50
> for $5 worth of product. I've just had a hard time trying to nail
down
> a biz that will sell retail off-the-street.
>
> Regards, John.
The radio shack stuff is current and should be in the stores. they
are required to carry a core group of products and I'm pretty sure
this is one of them.
http://www.radioshack.com/
PC Board Kit $14.99 Brand: Catalog Number: 276-1576
PCB Etchant - Extra Etching Solution
$3.99 Brand Catalog Number: 276-1535
If you are in any large city, there should be a couple stores you can
check.
but, if you are just checking the circuit, get a proto board, verify
the circuit works, then use ExpressPCB.
Dave
Also, you can fly the dry form of Ferric Chloride - check out
http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=ER-3. I think this
ships normally. Just be sure to add it to water and not vice versa. Also be
outside or in a ventilated area.
Al Williams
AWC
*New kits: http://www.al-williams.com/kits.htm
>
Original Message
> From: John Remington [noparse]/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=MMQmTTjvoL826y54XE-_Z72CBrvlS8Rf1-98fdFGcUyBHTAP9Fy1xGpWP89oWtheYyMH5fSPBRAl0ns]jrem123@y...[/url
> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 7:39 AM
> To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] OT: PC Board Etching
>
>
> thanks to all for the replies . . . I really want to make sure my
> artwork is accurate prior to ordering any pro boards, hence
> the prototype. I recall buying ferric chloride from Rat
> Shack in the 70's, but alas as Al or Dave mentioned, they
> don't sell much for the hobby minded anymore.
>
> And, yes, I realize I can't fly with that stuff . . . my whole point
> is to try to beat the hazardous material shipping fee, it's
> like $50 for $5 worth of product. I've just had a hard time
> trying to nail down a biz that will sell retail off-the-street.
>
> Regards, John.
>
>
> <snip>
> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >
> > Considering your time involved making a board, drilling
> STRAIGHT holes
> > etc,
> >
> > you may want to consider www.expresspcb.com
> >
> > Free layout software that is easy to use. For $62 you get
> three double
> > sided 2.5 X 3.8 inch boards in 3 working days.
> >
> >
> > [noparse][[/noparse]Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in
> the Subject
> > and Body of the message will be ignored.
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________
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> The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
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>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
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> Subject and Body of the message will be ignored.
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>
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> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
archive to search and lots of helpful folks.
>
Original Message
> From: jrem123 [noparse]/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=mWLiXvPGk18M4M1QQiC4vG4E3xGOrxObzkM1o6OMx7dFZeC215zOq66qg-zmVnqRwIT7NN_LGKpS]jrem123@y...[/url
> Sent: September 28, 2003 6:59 PM
> To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] OT: PC Board Etching
>
>
> I'm looking to proto a board at minimum cost. Any input on the
> following would be appreciated:
>
> a) anyone know where I can "walk in off the street" and buy ferric
> chloride or amonium persulfate? I am in Cleveland, Detroit, Chicago,
> and Cincinnati often . . .
>
> b) anyone have success/failures with the hydrochloric acid / hydrogen
> peroxide / water etchant strategy? Or any other readily avialable
> off the shelf chemicals to make a prototype board?
>
> Thanks . . . sorry for the OT but this board has the right folks
> IMO.
>
>
>
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the
> Subject and Body of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
jrem123@y... writes:
thanks to all for the replies . . . I really want to make sure my
artwork is accurate prior to ordering any pro boards, hence the
prototype. I recall buying ferric chloride from Rat Shack in the 70's,
but alas as Al or Dave mentioned, they don't sell much for the hobby
minded anymore.
And, yes, I realize I can't fly with that stuff . . . my whole point
is to try to beat the hazardous material shipping fee, it's like $50
for $5 worth of product. I've just had a hard time trying to nail down
a biz that will sell retail off-the-street.
Regards, John.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
In California Radio Shaft still sells ferric chloride in small bottles, as
part of the kit yuo previously mentioned.
[noparse][[/noparse]Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
they don't have it but another one nearby has three of the 16 ounce FE
bottles in stock.
Thanks ! ! !
--- Dave Mucha <davemucha@j...> wrote:
> --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, John Remington <jrem123@y...>
> wrote:
> > thanks to all for the replies . . . I really want to make sure
> my
> > artwork is accurate prior to ordering any pro boards, hence the
> > prototype. I recall buying ferric chloride from Rat Shack in the
> 70's,
> > but alas as Al or Dave mentioned, they don't sell much for the
> hobby
> > minded anymore.
> >
> > And, yes, I realize I can't fly with that stuff . . . my whole
> point
> > is to try to beat the hazardous material shipping fee, it's like
> $50
> > for $5 worth of product. I've just had a hard time trying to nail
> down
> > a biz that will sell retail off-the-street.
> >
> > Regards, John.
>
>
> The radio shack stuff is current and should be in the stores. they
> are required to carry a core group of products and I'm pretty sure
> this is one of them.
>
> http://www.radioshack.com/
>
> PC Board Kit $14.99 Brand: Catalog Number: 276-1576
>
> PCB Etchant - Extra Etching Solution
> $3.99 Brand Catalog Number: 276-1535
>
> If you are in any large city, there should be a couple stores you can
>
> check.
>
> but, if you are just checking the circuit, get a proto board, verify
> the circuit works, then use ExpressPCB.
>
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject
> and Body of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com
Etchant can be rejuvenated by recovering the copper from it.
The scheme is to plate it out on a copper or stainless steel
cathode.
The guy who told me about this uses a copper cathode and plain
steel anode. A graphite or lead anode would also work.
10 cm electrodes at 6 cm separation in a glass jar on a 1 Amp
constant-current source seems to work OK - Just at the point
where tiny bubbles form on the electrode is where you want the
current. More is'nt better, outgassing is undesirable, fumes are
toxic...
About ten minutes seems to suffice. If you're curious and have a
balance you can track the process by weighing boards and cathode
before and after.
YMMV. Any electroplating scheme is potentially hazardous and best
done outdoors.
regards, Jack
John Remington wrote:
>
> thanks to all for the replies . . . I really want to make sure my
> artwork is accurate prior to ordering any pro boards, hence the
> prototype. I recall buying ferric chloride from Rat Shack in the 70's,
> but alas as Al or Dave mentioned, they don't sell much for the hobby
> minded anymore.
etch, my lesson:
Outsource, outsource, outsource. It's cheap, it will save your sanity.
Sean T. Lamont, Chief Mad Scientist |-- lamont@a...
Zen Chemical Productions |-- http://www.zenchemical.com
Fabricators of Unnecessary Amazement
lamont@a... writes:
After spending some time (several months) with a board I was trying to
etch, my lesson:
Outsource, outsource, outsource. It's cheap, it will save your sanity.
Agree!!!!!!!!!!!!
[noparse][[/noparse]Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<lamont@a...> wrote:
>
>
> After spending some time (several months) with a board I was trying
to
> etch, my lesson:
>
> Outsource, outsource, outsource. It's cheap, it will save your
sanity.
May I add that if you are still protptyping, use ExpressPCB, and use
the whole board, and put in extra holes and traces so you can add
caps and resistors if/when needed. 2 holes connected by a trace
here and there to allow a resistor in and another device out.
espically around op-amps.
Dave
>
> Sean T. Lamont, Chief Mad Scientist |-- lamont@a...
> Zen Chemical Productions |--
http://www.zenchemical.com
> Fabricators of Unnecessary Amazement
toner transfer paper have been fairly easy.
Here is a few pictures of what I have been able to do with the toner
transfer paper:
http://my.vbe.com/~jbirnsch/MyPhotos
Click the basic stamp album
Jason
> lamont@a... writes:
> After spending some time (several months) with a board I was trying
to
> etch, my lesson:
>
> Outsource, outsource, outsource. It's cheap, it will save your
sanity.
> Agree!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>
> [noparse][[/noparse]Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jbirnsch@v... writes:
I have had good luck etching my own boards. Even 2 sided boards with
toner transfer paper have been fairly easy.
Here is a few pictures of what I have been able to do with the toner
transfer paper:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Looks pretty damn good. All surface mount stuff.....Two sided with holes is a
pain, agree?
[noparse][[/noparse]Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
enough to try the SOIC 1.27 stuff). I use photoresist method instead
of transfer paper. Lining up the holes on both sides is actually
pretty easy.
A tip from the homebrew PCB board: Poke some holes in your
transparancies - choose Three pads, one in each bottom corner and
one in a top corner. The top corner is a visual aid so you don't
accidently get the PCB flipped side to side during exposure.
Take a long thin piece of scrap PCB and scotch tape one edge of the
transparency to it. Slip your PCB underneath and mark the three hole
positions. Remove the PCB and drill the holes. Note: This is with
the protective plastic still in place! You don't want to expose the
photoresist!
Flip your scrap PCB&Transparency over so the transparancy is on the
bottom, the poke some resistor leads up through the two bottom
corner holes. Lay your good PCB over it (taking note of the third
hole position so you get the proper side) and slip the resistor
leads through the PCB holes. I usually hang the holes just over a
table edge with a piece of paper underneath to keep the resistors in
place.
Take the second transparency and lay it on top. Slip the resistor
leads through the matching holes so the two sheets are (almost)
perfectly aligned.
Now carefully wiggle the top tranparency around until the leads
stand straight - tape the top sheet to the scrap PCB. Now you have
something that looks sort of like a book, the covers being
transparencies and the single page being the PCB. When you want to
expose, slip the PCB between the sheets and poke resistor leads
through to the PCB. When the leads are vertical, you have everything
lined up. Remove the leads, lay your glass over it, and expose away.
Repeat for the opposite side.
The only problem I've run into doing this is transparencies that
slip a bit during printing so they don't line up even when held flat
against one another. IBM laser transparacies slip in my el-cheapo
Samsung ML-1210 laser. 3M Laser transparancies seem to do ok.
--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, smartdim@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 9/29/2003 2:43:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> jbirnsch@v... writes:
> I have had good luck etching my own boards. Even 2 sided boards
with
> toner transfer paper have been fairly easy.
>
> Here is a few pictures of what I have been able to do with the
toner
> transfer paper:
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> Looks pretty damn good. All surface mount stuff.....Two sided with
holes is a
> pain, agree?
>
>
> [noparse][[/noparse]Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ghidera2000@y... writes:
I've been doing both double sided and surface mount (only brave
enough to try the SOIC 1.27 stuff). I use photoresist method instead
of transfer paper. Lining up the holes on both sides is actually
pretty easy.
A tip from the homebrew PCB board: Poke some holes in your
transparancies - choose Three pads, one in each bottom corner and
one in a top corner. The top corner is a visual aid so you don't
accidently get the PCB flipped side to side during exposure.
Take a long thin piece of scrap PCB and scotch tape one edge of the
transparency to it. Slip your PCB underneath and mark the three hole
positions. Remove the PCB and drill the holes. Note: This is with
the protective plastic still in place! You don't want to expose the
photoresist!
Flip your scrap PCB&Transparency over so the transparancy is on the
bottom, the poke some resistor leads up through the two bottom
corner holes. Lay your good PCB over it (taking note of the third
hole position so you get the proper side) and slip the resistor
leads through the PCB holes. I usually hang the holes just over a
table edge with a piece of paper underneath to keep the resistors in
place.
Take the second transparency and lay it on top. Slip the resistor
leads through the matching holes so the two sheets are (almost)
perfectly aligned.
Now carefully wiggle the top tranparency around until the leads
stand straight - tape the top sheet to the scrap PCB. Now you have
something that looks sort of like a book, the covers being
transparencies and the single page being the PCB. When you want to
expose, slip the PCB between the sheets and poke resistor leads
through to the PCB. When the leads are vertical, you have everything
lined up. Remove the leads, lay your glass over it, and expose away.
Repeat for the opposite side.
The only problem I've run into doing this is transparencies that
slip a bit during printing so they don't line up even when held flat
against one another. IBM laser transparacies slip in my el-cheapo
Samsung ML-1210 laser. 3M Laser transparancies seem to do ok.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Ahhhhhh,
So that is how it's done. I have made several single sided boards. Recently
however, I have found to save time (at much greater expense) is to go the
www.expresspcb.com route and have been very pleased with the results.
Must be damn sure that your artwork is correct though.
I just might try the double sided method you just mentioned.
[noparse][[/noparse]Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, goflo@p... wrote:
> Won't help you find the stuff, but may be useful:
>
> Etchant can be rejuvenated by recovering the copper from it.
>
> The scheme is to plate it out on a copper or stainless steel
> cathode.
>
> The guy who told me about this uses a copper cathode and plain
> steel anode. A graphite or lead anode would also work.
>
> 10 cm electrodes at 6 cm separation in a glass jar on a 1 Amp
> constant-current source seems to work OK - Just at the point
> where tiny bubbles form on the electrode is where you want the
> current. More is'nt better, outgassing is undesirable, fumes are
> toxic...
>
> About ten minutes seems to suffice. If you're curious and have a
> balance you can track the process by weighing boards and cathode
> before and after.
>
> YMMV. Any electroplating scheme is potentially hazardous and best
> done outdoors.
>
> regards, Jack
>
> John Remington wrote:
> >
> > thanks to all for the replies . . . I really want to make sure
my
> > artwork is accurate prior to ordering any pro boards, hence the
> > prototype. I recall buying ferric chloride from Rat Shack in the
70's,
> > but alas as Al or Dave mentioned, they don't sell much for the
hobby
> > minded anymore.
There's
a satisfaction I get when I think of a circuit Friday after work and have a
working
project by Sunday afternoon. The materials and process you use are probably the
greatest factor in whether making a PCB is a fun hobby or a frustrating chore.
Paul
> I have had good luck etching my own boards. Even 2 sided boards with
> toner transfer paper have been fairly easy.
>
> Here is a few pictures of what I have been able to do with the toner
> transfer paper:
>
> http://my.vbe.com/~jbirnsch/MyPhotos
>
> Click the basic stamp album
>
> Jason
>
> > lamont@a... writes:
> > After spending some time (several months) with a board I was trying
> to
> > etch, my lesson:
> >
> > Outsource, outsource, outsource. It's cheap, it will save your
> sanity.
> > Agree!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> >
> > [noparse][[/noparse]Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and Body
of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
more
care than you do with a single sided, but it's not too difficult.
Paul
> In a message dated 9/29/2003 2:43:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> jbirnsch@v... writes:
> I have had good luck etching my own boards. Even 2 sided boards with
> toner transfer paper have been fairly easy.
>
> Here is a few pictures of what I have been able to do with the toner
> transfer paper:
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> Looks pretty damn good. All surface mount stuff.....Two sided with holes is a
> pain, agree?
>
>
> [noparse][[/noparse]Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and Body
of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>