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Measureing liquid levels — Parallax Forums

Measureing liquid levels

ArchiverArchiver Posts: 46,084
edited 2003-06-20 17:46 in General Discussion
Greetings! Im trying to come up with a way to measure the level of a
liquid in a container and use the basic stamp. Has anybody seen a
good way to do this?
Thanks in advance.

Jeff

Comments

  • ArchiverArchiver Posts: 46,084
    edited 2003-06-19 20:15
    Buy a "pressure transducer" that is water proof. Put it at the bottom
    of the liquid and as the liquid above it rises or falls, the pressure
    on it at the bottom will also rise/fall. I'm still looking for a good
    water proof one myself to use on a submersible. The ones I've found
    are >$300 so far.

    --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "jemarcks" <jemarcks@y...> wrote:
    > Greetings! Im trying to come up with a way to measure the level of
    a
    > liquid in a container and use the basic stamp. Has anybody seen a
    > good way to do this?
    > Thanks in advance.
    >
    > Jeff
  • ArchiverArchiver Posts: 46,084
    edited 2003-06-19 20:49
    I've been attempting to use a thermistor to measure temperature, and I've
    read that a thermistor is good to sense liquid level (at least water) (I'v
    figured out the thermistor [noparse][[/noparse]well, the damn data sheet], but I'm figuring out
    op-amps now). From what I've learned, you put enough current through the
    thermistor to raise its tempurature above the ambient air tempurature, and
    since a liquid (like water) will dissipate heat better than free air, the
    resistance will either rise or fall depending on whether you use a PTC or
    NTC thermistor. When the liquid level reached the thermistor, the risistance
    should change by an amount, indicating that the liquid has either reached or
    fallen below the level that you set. You should also check the trigger level
    in the worst case scenario, with the free air temp at its lowest and the
    liquid temperature at its highest.

    For details, though, you'll need to go elsewhere. I don't know the math well
    enough to determine error.

    Steve

    Original Message
    From: "jemarcks" <jemarcks@y...>
    To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
    Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 2:21 AM
    Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Measureing liquid levels


    > Greetings! Im trying to come up with a way to measure the level of a
    > liquid in a container and use the basic stamp. Has anybody seen a
    > good way to do this?
    > Thanks in advance.
    >
    > Jeff
    >
    >
    >
    > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
    > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
    > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
    Body of the message will be ignored.
    >
    >
    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
    >
  • ArchiverArchiver Posts: 46,084
    edited 2003-06-19 20:52
    Jeff,
    I've used cheap transducers, such as a Data Instruments XCX01DNC designed
    for air- $15. I've also used really expensive, sensitive transducers
    designed for water - 0 -5 in /h20 full scale - $900. The difference is in
    longetivity. Although they say it is compatible with air, not water, if you
    use desiccant the XCX will do pretty well, in excess of a year. You could
    replace it quite a few times before you'd spend what you would for one
    designed for water.

    What I would do (and am about to do for the water tank in my van) is run a
    length of 1/4" tubing up from the bottom of the container, into a canister
    containing desiccant, and then another length from the desiccant container
    to the transducer. The output from the transducer (0-5V) goes into the stamp
    via an ADC. This is the setup they use in a bubble gage, a $4000 instrument
    designed to measure water level in wells, only they have a small compressor
    which continually pushes air through the tube to keep it dry.

    Another option would be to use a float attached to a potentiometer and an
    ADC. I guess it depends on the desired range and resolution.

    cheers,
    Jeff

    Original Message
    From: "jemarcks" <jemarcks@y...>



    > Greetings! Im trying to come up with a way to measure the level of a
    > liquid in a container and use the basic stamp. Has anybody seen a
    > good way to do this?
    > Thanks in advance.
    >
    > Jeff
  • ArchiverArchiver Posts: 46,084
    edited 2003-06-19 21:05
    The preferred method is to form a capacitor with the container of liquid,
    using the liquid as the dielectric. This can be accomplished with two
    strips of adhesive foil tape on the outside of the container. This
    "Capacitor" can be used in an RC oscillator, where the Stamp can
    determine the fluid level by count the frequency returned. An additional
    capacitor plate located on the bottom of the container might be required.
    This plate should be connected to ground.

    >I've been attempting to use a thermistor to measure temperature, and I've
    >read that a thermistor is good to sense liquid level (at least water) (I'v
    >figured out the thermistor [noparse][[/noparse]well, the damn data sheet], but I'm figuring out
    >op-amps now). From what I've learned, you put enough current through the
    >thermistor to raise its tempurature above the ambient air tempurature, and
    >since a liquid (like water) will dissipate heat better than free air, the
    >resistance will either rise or fall depending on whether you use a PTC or
    >NTC thermistor. When the liquid level reached the thermistor, the risistance
    >should change by an amount, indicating that the liquid has either reached or
    >fallen below the level that you set. You should also check the trigger level
    >in the worst case scenario, with the free air temp at its lowest and the
    >liquid temperature at its highest.
    >
    >For details, though, you'll need to go elsewhere. I don't know the math well
    >enough to determine error.
    >
    >Steve
    >
    >
    Original Message
    >From: "jemarcks" <jemarcks@y...>
    >To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
    >Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 2:21 AM
    >Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Measureing liquid levels
    >
    >
    > > Greetings! Im trying to come up with a way to measure the level of a
    > > liquid in a container and use the basic stamp. Has anybody seen a
    > > good way to do this?
    > > Thanks in advance.
    > >
    > > Jeff
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
    > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
    > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
    >Body of the message will be ignored.
    > >
    > >
    > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
    > >
    >
    >
    >To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
    > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
    >from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
    >Body of the message will be ignored.
    >
    >
    >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
  • ArchiverArchiver Posts: 46,084
    edited 2003-06-19 21:09
    In a message dated 6/19/2003 12:57:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
    zman97211@y... writes:

    >
    >
    > I've been attempting to use a thermistor to measure temperature, and I've
    > read that a thermistor is good to sense liquid level (at least water) (I'v
    > figured out the thermistor [noparse][[/noparse]well, the damn data sheet], but I'm figuring out
    > op-amps now). From what I've learned, you put enough current through the
    > thermistor to raise its tempurature above the ambient air tempurature, and
    > since a liquid (like water) will dissipate heat better than free air, the
    > resistance will either rise or fall depending on whether you use a PTC or
    > NTC thermistor. When the liquid level reached the thermistor, the risistance
    > should change by an amount, indicating that the liquid has either reached or
    > fallen below the level that you set.

    This approach is likely the easiest, cheapest and very reliable. In MOST
    automobiles today, the LOW FUEL WARNING LIGHT works as described above for the
    water......When the fixed position thermister is immersed in fuel, the
    temperature of the thermister goes down, resistance goes up and it keep the low
    fuel
    warning lamp OFF (thermister provided direct ground for the warning lamp).

    Once the fuel level inside the fuel tank is below the thermister that is now
    in free air, the thermister heats up, resistance goes down and the thermister
    then provides ground for the low fuel warning lamp which now illuminates.....

    Did you ever notice how when you are just getting low on fuel the light will
    glow dimly, then go out (back and forth).....this is when the fuel level is
    "just at" the same level as the thermister, fuel sloshing causes the thermister
    to be covered with fuel, and not covered with fuel which corresponds the the
    low fuel warning light off and on.......


    [noparse][[/noparse]Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  • ArchiverArchiver Posts: 46,084
    edited 2003-06-19 22:23
    here is an excellent reference using the capacitance
    method from scott edwards and as mentioned to by
    others.

    snip...The dielectric constant (an important factor in
    determining the capacitance of
    two conductors separated by an insulator) of water is
    very different from that of
    air. Measure the capacitance across the tank to
    determine the proportion of water
    to air and therefore the level of the water...snip


    http://www.parallax.com/Downloads/Documentation/nv/v1/col/NV27-Measuring_Water_L\
    evel.pdf


    hope this helps,
    ross

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  • ArchiverArchiver Posts: 46,084
    edited 2003-06-19 23:31
    Hi,
    I don't know a lot about the Capacitive sensing method, and Im away from the
    office, but I seem to remember that National made a chip that does this type
    of measurement. It used two rods in the tank.

    The other thing to remember is that this type of sensing is not for flammable
    liquids, Gasoline, Kerosene, and fuel type liquids.

    Alan Bradford
    Plasma Technologies


    > here is an excellent reference using the capacitance
    > method from scott edwards and as mentioned to by
    > others.
    >
    > snip...The dielectric constant (an important factor in
    > determining the capacitance of
    > two conductors separated by an insulator) of water is
    > very different from that of
    > air. Measure the capacitance across the tank to
    > determine the proportion of water
    > to air and therefore the level of the water...snip
    >
    >
    > http://www.parallax.com/Downloads/Documentation/nv/v1/col/NV27-Measuring_Wate
    > r_Level.pdf
    >
    > hope this helps,
    > ross
    >



    [noparse][[/noparse]Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  • ArchiverArchiver Posts: 46,084
    edited 2003-06-20 12:54
    I currently use a capacitance sensor in my fuel tank in my experimental
    aircraft. It is an off the shelf unit that is used in numerous aircraft.
    About $90. Small aluminum tube inside of a larger tube. Simple and quite
    accurate.



    Hi,
    I don't know a lot about the Capacitive sensing method, and Im away from
    the
    office, but I seem to remember that National made a chip that does this
    type
    of measurement. It used two rods in the tank.

    The other thing to remember is that this type of sensing is not for
    flammable
    liquids, Gasoline, Kerosene, and fuel type liquids.

    Alan Bradford
    Plasma Technologies


    > here is an excellent reference using the capacitance
    > method from scott edwards and as mentioned to by
    > others.
    >
    > snip...The dielectric constant (an important factor in
    > determining the capacitance of
    > two conductors separated by an insulator) of water is
    > very different from that of
    > air. Measure the capacitance across the tank to
    > determine the proportion of water
    > to air and therefore the level of the water...snip
    >
    >
    >
    http://www.parallax.com/Downloads/Documentation/nv/v1/col/NV27-Measuring_Wate

    > r_Level.pdf
    >
    > hope this helps,
    > ross
    >



    [noparse][[/noparse]Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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  • ArchiverArchiver Posts: 46,084
    edited 2003-06-20 14:44
    Just an observation.... I would think that the "hot wire" method would be the
    one to stay away from when dealing with flammable liquids.

    -Beau Schwabe



    >Hi,
    >I don't know a lot about the Capacitive sensing method, and Im away from the
    >office, but I seem to remember that National made a chip that does this type
    >of measurement. It used two rods in the tank.
    >
    >The other thing to remember is that this type of sensing is not for flammable
    >liquids, Gasoline, Kerosene, and fuel type liquids.
    >
    >Alan Bradford
    >Plasma Technologies
    >
    >
    > > here is an excellent reference using the capacitance
    > > method from scott edwards and as mentioned to by
    > > others.
    > >
    > > snip...The dielectric constant (an important factor in
    > > determining the capacitance of
    > > two conductors separated by an insulator) of water is
    > > very different from that of
    > > air. Measure the capacitance across the tank to
    > > determine the proportion of water
    > > to air and therefore the level of the water...snip
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > http://www.parallax.com/Downloads/Documentation/nv/v1/col/NV27-Measuring_Wate
    > > r_Level.pdf
    > >
    > > hope this helps,
    > > ross
    > >
    >
    >
    >
    >[noparse][[/noparse]Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    >
    >
    >To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
    > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
    >from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
    >Body of the message will be ignored.
    >
    >
    >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
  • ArchiverArchiver Posts: 46,084
    edited 2003-06-20 17:29
    Hi Jeff:

    There are a lot of ways to measure liquid levels, in order to start to
    say which to use much more information needs to be known like what's the
    liquid, water, gasoline, sewage? What's the range of levels possible?
    Do you need an analog output or just switch closures? If analog how
    precise?

    The compressor is there not to keep the tube dry, but to maintain the
    pressure in the tube the same as the pressure at the bottom of the tank.
    I had a 1929 car that used this method for a gas gauge. You needed to
    work a small pump on the dash and then read the gas level as a column of
    red liquid. This way the sensor can be up out of the liquid. The pump
    would only need to be run just prior to making a reading and the
    pressure will hold for wuite some time. If the sensor has a problem
    with the liquid you can use a "U" tube with oil or some other liquid
    between the sensor and the fluid it does not like.

    Have Fun,

    Brooke Clarke, N6GCE
    http://www.PRC68.com

    >Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 12:52:45 -0700
    > From: "Jeff K" <kennedy@t...>
    >Subject: Re: Measureing liquid levels
    >
    >Jeff,
    > I've used cheap transducers, such as a Data Instruments XCX01DNC designed
    >for air- $15. I've also used really expensive, sensitive transducers
    >designed for water - 0 -5 in /h20 full scale - $900. The difference is in
    >longetivity. Although they say it is compatible with air, not water, if you
    >use desiccant the XCX will do pretty well, in excess of a year. You could
    >replace it quite a few times before you'd spend what you would for one
    >designed for water.
    >
    >What I would do (and am about to do for the water tank in my van) is run a
    >length of 1/4" tubing up from the bottom of the container, into a canister
    >containing desiccant, and then another length from the desiccant container
    >to the transducer. The output from the transducer (0-5V) goes into the stamp
    >via an ADC. This is the setup they use in a bubble gage, a $4000 instrument
    >designed to measure water level in wells, only they have a small compressor
    >which continually pushes air through the tube to keep it dry.
    >
    >Another option would be to use a float attached to a potentiometer and an
    >ADC. I guess it depends on the desired range and resolution.
    >
    >cheers,
    > Jeff
    >
    >
    Original Message
    >From: "jemarcks" <jemarcks@y...>
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >>Greetings! Im trying to come up with a way to measure the level of a
    >>liquid in a container and use the basic stamp. Has anybody seen a
    >>good way to do this?
    >>Thanks in advance.
    >>
    >>Jeff
    >>
  • ArchiverArchiver Posts: 46,084
    edited 2003-06-20 17:46
    Thanks to everybody who replied. I have received many great ideas.
    Now i need to go try some out.
    Thanks again everybody!
    Jeff



    --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "jemarcks" <jemarcks@y...> wrote:
    > Greetings! Im trying to come up with a way to measure the level of
    a
    > liquid in a container and use the basic stamp. Has anybody seen a
    > good way to do this?
    > Thanks in advance.
    >
    > Jeff
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