Water pipe pin hole problem
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Posts: 46,084
Let me start off this message by saying that I usually like to stay on topic and
only ask or discuss stamp related issues and for those of you setting there like
a CORBA ready to strike that delete key, just go ahead and hit it. Of the ones
of you left, if you could tell me why the water pipe coming into my house
constantly develops pin holes, I would appreciate it. Frankly I don't know who
else to ask, and I thought maybe some kind hearted soul might just give me a
hint in the right direction. Thanks so much for a great list and a great bunch
of people to communicate, mostly, stamp ideas.
Leroy
only ask or discuss stamp related issues and for those of you setting there like
a CORBA ready to strike that delete key, just go ahead and hit it. Of the ones
of you left, if you could tell me why the water pipe coming into my house
constantly develops pin holes, I would appreciate it. Frankly I don't know who
else to ask, and I thought maybe some kind hearted soul might just give me a
hint in the right direction. Thanks so much for a great list and a great bunch
of people to communicate, mostly, stamp ideas.
Leroy
Comments
writes:
> Let me start off this message by saying that I usually like to stay on topic
> and
> only ask or discuss stamp related issues and for those of you setting there
> like
> a CORBA ready to strike that delete key, just go ahead and hit it. Of the
> ones
> of you left, if you could tell me why the water pipe coming into my house
> constantly develops pin holes, I would appreciate it. Frankly I don't know
> who
> else to ask, and I thought maybe some kind hearted soul might just give me
> a
> hint in the right direction. Thanks so much for a great list and a great
> bunch
> of people to communicate, mostly, stamp ideas.
>
>
> Leroy
>
Copper or galvanized steel piping.
[noparse][[/noparse]Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My 'lectronic Newb site http://members.shaw.ca/pmeloy/
Original Message
From: "Leroy Hall" <leroy@f...>
To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 3:16 PM
Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Water pipe pin hole problem
> Let me start off this message by saying that I usually like to stay on
topic and
> only ask or discuss stamp related issues and for those of you setting
there like
> a CORBA ready to strike that delete key, just go ahead and hit it. Of the
ones
> of you left, if you could tell me why the water pipe coming into my house
> constantly develops pin holes, I would appreciate it. Frankly I don't
know who
> else to ask, and I thought maybe some kind hearted soul might just give me
a
> hint in the right direction. Thanks so much for a great list and a great
bunch
> of people to communicate, mostly, stamp ideas.
>
>
> Leroy
>
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
Body of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
bouncing around your house and they just don't seem to like your pipes
holding all that water. Maybe the water is yelling and asking to be set
free so the free radicals or quarks are setting it free.
On Wed, 26 Feb 2003 18:49:43 EST, <smartdim@a...> wrote:
> In a message dated 2/26/2003 3:26:20 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> leroy@f... writes:
>
> if you could tell me why the water pipe coming into my
>> house
>> constantly develops pin holes, I would appreciate it. Frankly I don't
>> know who
>> else to ask, and I thought maybe some kind hearted soul might just give
>> me a
>> hint in the right direction.
Could be witches, they're sneaky too. Has anyone
given you the evil eye lately?
That's another possiblity too.
Original Message
From: "Larry Williams" <wizzzard@b...>
To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 6:12 PM
Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Water pipe pin hole problem
> Looks to me like you have some free radicals or quarks one or the other
> bouncing around your house and they just don't seem to like your pipes
> holding all that water. Maybe the water is yelling and asking to be set
> free so the free radicals or quarks are setting it free.
>
> On Wed, 26 Feb 2003 18:49:43 EST, <smartdim@a...> wrote:
>
> > In a message dated 2/26/2003 3:26:20 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> > leroy@f... writes:
> >
> > if you could tell me why the water pipe coming into my
> >> house
> >> constantly develops pin holes, I would appreciate it. Frankly I don't
> >> know who
> >> else to ask, and I thought maybe some kind hearted soul might just give
> >> me a
> >> hint in the right direction.
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
Body of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
where your power comes into the house? Also, does the phone line use this
ground or is it tied to a water pipe?
Original Message
> Let me start off this message by saying that I usually like to stay on
topic and
> only ask or discuss stamp related issues and for those of you setting
there like
> a CORBA ready to strike that delete key, just go ahead and hit it. Of the
ones
> of you left, if you could tell me why the water pipe coming into my house
> constantly develops pin holes, I would appreciate it. Frankly I don't
know who
> else to ask, and I thought maybe some kind hearted soul might just give me
a
> hint in the right direction. Thanks so much for a great list and a great
bunch
> of people to communicate, mostly, stamp ideas.
>I'll reply off list - this is what I do for my day job [noparse]:D[/noparse]
Please don't - we all might learn something.
dwayne
--
Dwayne Reid <dwayner@p...>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice (780) 487-6397 fax
Celebrating 19 years of Engineering Innovation (1984 - 2003)
.-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-
`-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-'
Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to this email address.
This message neither grants consent to receive unsolicited
commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial email.
CO2 in the water, Galvanic corrosion etc...
I'd probable start with a pH test.
Contact me off-list if you'd like further assistance
Greg
Original Message
From: "Leroy Hall" <leroy@f...>
To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 4:16 PM
Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Water pipe pin hole problem
> Let me start off this message by saying that I usually like to stay on
topic and
> only ask or discuss stamp related issues and for those of you setting
there like
> a CORBA ready to strike that delete key, just go ahead and hit it. Of the
ones
> of you left, if you could tell me why the water pipe coming into my house
> constantly develops pin holes, I would appreciate it. Frankly I don't
know who
> else to ask, and I thought maybe some kind hearted soul might just give me
a
> hint in the right direction. Thanks so much for a great list and a great
bunch
> of people to communicate, mostly, stamp ideas.
>
>
> Leroy
>
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
Body of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
areas water is rather acidic - 6.2 in my area. Acid and copper don't get
along - though you can have acidic water and no corrosion because...
Hard and soft water affect corrosion. The softer the water, the more
corrosive it is - even if its pH is basic. Covalent bonding versus the ionic
bonding of acid based corrosion. If your area has both acidic and soft (and
the two usually do go together) you're pipes aren't going to last long
compared to an area where the water is base and hard.
Then of course you have water pipes being used as grounds for equipment in
the house, which doesn't help.
For the total story on what your local water may be doing to your pipes, go
to your local swimming pool supply store and pick up calcium hardness and
total alkalinity testing chemicals and some 40ml vials, along with some pH
strips. Buy a thermometer and some plasticene. Use the putty to stick the
thermometer onto your water pipe to find out its temperature.
When you have all that, consult this chart
http://www.rhtubs.com/langlier.htm
Water in my area has an index of -5.0 (anything with an index of -0.5 or
higher is corrosive). Copper water pipes generally last 25-40 years here,
depending on how often water flows through them etc, the more flow you have,
the greater the corrosion.
Pinholes are an indication that your pipes have had the biscuit. The pipe
walls have corroded away and you basically have an uneven copper foil
instead of nice thick pipes. Its time to replace the entire section. Usually
the in-ground pipe starts doing this first then about 10 years later is
starts doing it on the pipe in the basement. Rest of the house follows in
the next 5-10 year depending on use.
And yes, all metallic corrosion is electrical in nature [noparse]:D[/noparse]
P.S. To be truly accurate you'd have to test for magnesium as well as
calcium in the water, but thats not as readily available AFAIK.
One other possibility, though I haven't seen it in homes much, is when they
use a dissimilar metal strapping material to hold the copper pipe up. If
they used steel straps on copper pipe you'll see both are corroded (basic
galvanic action) and pinholes will be localized to within a few inches of
the strap. For this you only have to replace that small section and use a
copper or plastic strap. Even then, I usually put a couple wraps of
electricians tape on to seperate the strap from the pipe - then I know no
current can flow.
My 'lectronic Newb site http://members.shaw.ca/pmeloy/
Original Message
From: "Dwayne Reid" <dwayner@p...>
To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 4:49 PM
Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Water pipe pin hole problem
> At 03:55 PM 2/26/03 -0800, Pat M wrote:
> >I'll reply off list - this is what I do for my day job [noparse]:D[/noparse]
>
> Please don't - we all might learn something.
>
> dwayne
>
> --
> Dwayne Reid <dwayner@p...>
> Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd Edmonton, AB, CANADA
> (780) 489-3199 voice (780) 487-6397 fax
>
> Celebrating 19 years of Engineering Innovation (1984 - 2003)
> .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-
> `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-'
> Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to this email address.
> This message neither grants consent to receive unsolicited
> commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial email.
>
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
Body of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
marine engineering trades training. A quicky OT post isn't going to come
close to describing the whole topic. For that, you should visit some
chemistry and metallurgy sites.
I installed black plastic water line from my water meter to my house. Within a
year, the galvanized fitting at
the water meter failed. The guys at the local lumber yard said that certain
soil conditions "eat up galvanized
metal". I replaced the fitting with a nylon one and it has held for 6-7 years.
Fred
Leroy Hall wrote:
> Let me start off this message by saying that I usually like to stay on topic
and
> only ask or discuss stamp related issues and for those of you setting there
like
> a CORBA ready to strike that delete key, just go ahead and hit it. Of the
ones
> of you left, if you could tell me why the water pipe coming into my house
> constantly develops pin holes, I would appreciate it. Frankly I don't know
who
> else to ask, and I thought maybe some kind hearted soul might just give me a
> hint in the right direction. Thanks so much for a great list and a great
bunch
> of people to communicate, mostly, stamp ideas.
>
> Leroy
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and Body
of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Original Message
From: "Eric Adams" <eric.adams10@v...>
To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 12:49 PM
Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Water pipe pin hole problem
> Hi Fred:
>
> Just noticed your fix of replacing your metal fitting with a nylon one.
It
> reminded me of a real life story. I worked for over 30 years for a major
> communications company One of my many responsibilities was managing the
> power in the central offices. One day we lost suddenly lost all
> communications in and out of very large military base. Since I coudn't
call
> anyone there or they coudn't call me I drove the 55 miles to the base.
Upon
> arrival every alarm that was able to ring was sounding. It was really nuts
> and all the brass was jumping up & down. After hours of the outage
> suddenly everything was working again just like it had for years past.
> During my checking I coudn't find anything wrong but nothing was working.
>
> Of course the brass wanted an investigation and wanted to hang someone.
> The investigation found out that on that date and time their water meter
> man had shut off the water to the building in the basement and removed the
> meter. In it's place he put in a plastic bypass and took the meter to the
> calibration shop. Several hours later he returned and replaced the meter.
> It was found that there was no other electrical earth ground on the
> equipment except through the water line and it was connected to the
building
> side of the meter not the street side. Consequently when the meter was
> rempved all ground reference was open and all the electronics woudn't work
> with the outside earth ground reference removed. You should have a very
> good understanding of how your electrical system is grounded and make sure
> you have several ground sources before replacing metal with plastic pipe.
> The electrical code has been changed to reflect this and now requires the
> water meter to be strapped from it's input to the output.
>
> Have a greaat day
>
>
>
Original Message
> From: "Fred Payne" <fpayne@c...>
> To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 9:58 AM
> Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Water pipe pin hole problem
>
>
> > Leroy
> > I installed black plastic water line from my water meter to my house.
> Within a year, the galvanized fitting at
> > the water meter failed. The guys at the local lumber yard said that
> certain soil conditions "eat up galvanized
> > metal". I replaced the fitting with a nylon one and it has held for 6-7
> years.
> > Fred
> >
> > Leroy Hall wrote:
> >
> > > Let me start off this message by saying that I usually like to stay on
> topic and
> > > only ask or discuss stamp related issues and for those of you setting
> there like
> > > a CORBA ready to strike that delete key, just go ahead and hit it. Of
> the ones
> > > of you left, if you could tell me why the water pipe coming into my
> house
> > > constantly develops pin holes, I would appreciate it. Frankly I don't
> know who
> > > else to ask, and I thought maybe some kind hearted soul might just
give
> me a
> > > hint in the right direction. Thanks so much for a great list and a
> great bunch
> > > of people to communicate, mostly, stamp ideas.
> > >
> > > Leroy
> > >
> > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject
> and Body of the message will be ignored.
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject
and
> Body of the message will be ignored.
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
Bob Pease in Electronics Design magazine (I think it was he, there)
had an article about the process of troubleshooting as exemplified by
a water leak he had to track down in the roof of his house.
Troubleshooting is one of those things that crosses topical
boundaries.
Bob's article archive:
http://www.elecdesign.com/Index.cfm?Action=Pease
I don't know which article it was, but Bob's articles are always a
good read for electronics and beyond.
-- Tracy
>Let me start off this message by saying that I usually like to stay
>on topic and
>only ask or discuss stamp related issues and for those of you
>setting there like
>a CORBA ready to strike that delete key, just go ahead and hit it.
>Of the ones
>of you left, if you could tell me why the water pipe coming into my house
>constantly develops pin holes, I would appreciate it. Frankly I
>don't know who
>else to ask, and I thought maybe some kind hearted soul might just give me a
>hint in the right direction. Thanks so much for a great list and a
>great bunch
>of people to communicate, mostly, stamp ideas.
>
>Leroy
>Hi Leroy,
>
>Bob Pease in Electronics Design magazine (I think it was he, there)
>had an article about the process of troubleshooting as exemplified by
>a water leak he had to track down in the roof of his house.
>Troubleshooting is one of those things that crosses topical
>boundaries.
>
>Bob's article archive:
> http://www.elecdesign.com/Index.cfm?Action=Pease
>
>I don't know which article it was, but Bob's articles are always a
>good read for electronics and beyond.
This one, I think.
<http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/Index.cfm?ArticleID=5910>
dwayne
--
Dwayne Reid <dwayner@p...>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice (780) 487-6397 fax
Celebrating 19 years of Engineering Innovation (1984 - 2003)
.-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-
`-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-'
Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to this email address.
This message neither grants consent to receive unsolicited
commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial email.
was working graveyards and it was my responsibility to balance the pools and
adjust the controllers for proper pH and chlorine levels. I'd do everything
I was taught, do careful testing and standardize the pH and ORP just before
I went home at 5AM. Everything would be honky dory until the pools got
busy - then all of a sudden the chlorine levels would shoot waaaaaaaay past
the setpoints (5ppm instead of 1.5 for the cool pools and 15 or so intead of
5 in the hot-tubs). The pH remained rock steady so it made no sense at all.
To top it all off, despite the ozone our combined chlorine readings were
always waaaaaaay higher than they should be (used up chlorine) yet we didn't
experience the problems that should have gone along with it.
We bought new sensors a couple times ($675 each - 5 pools at two sensors
per). We replaced a couple of signal transmitters and even replaced an
entire Honeywell SAC-110 controller - all to no avail. Most of this was done
before I got there but its not like I would have known any better at the
time. I talked to pool operators all over the city and none had experienced
anything like this.
The one thing different about our facility is that we also have ozone water
treatment . Management had already talked to the experts and ruled out the
ozone as a contributor. Being dumb and uneducated, I didn't believe them and
started looking into it. Ozone (O3 btw) supposedly can't last more than a
few seconds in water before it breaks down. There is (or at least was) no
way to test for ozone in the water since it all dissipates before you can
plop reagents into a test tube. Electronic sensors cannot test for ozone
specifically, only for oxidation-reduction potential - which is what led my
dumb and uneducated brain to suspect ozone in the first place. Chlorine and
ozone are both oxidizers and an ORP probe can't tell the difference.
With no way to directly test, I decided to shut the ozone feed off for one
of the pools for a week and see what happened (a gamble since I was under
direct orders NOT to do such a thing - silly me, I talked to a manager about
it first). Sure enough, that pool worked flawlessly the entire time and the
combined levels dropped drastically. I grabbed an engineer as a
witness/control and for the next two days we recorded all chemical levels,
ozone feed rates, you name it.
I then told management by dumb and educated theory. Overnight, when the pool
water is calm and undisturbed, we were building up entrained ozone in the
pool water. The ozone would raise the ORP value of the water, resulting in
much higher ORP readings than the chlorine residual alone would create (Its
too long a story to explain ORP standardizing and calibration, just go with
it 8). I'd standardize the readings just before opening, when the water had
been calm as long as possible and had built up its highest concentrations of
ozone. This meant that a large portion of our ORP reading was ozone, not
chlorine. When the waves started and everyone was thrashing about, all the
entrained ozone was released and the ORP values would plummet. The
controller had no choice but to feed massive amounts of chlorine to make up
that missing oxidizing power
The engineer and I presented our findings to management *several times*.
They finally, grudgingly, gave in and let us rip out most of the electrodes
to bring us down to about 1/4 of the ozone capacity. Immediate and
substantial improvement. We're now down to 1/8th the original capacity and
things have been humming along great for four years. We also had the
(mostly) unexpected benefit of not having legions of water leaks in the PVC
piping - turned out the entrained ozone was destroying them!
Which brings us back to electronics trouble-shooting and an old trueism -
when you've elimated the obvious and improbable, only the impossible
remains.
See, even the dumb and uneducated can be pretty smart at times! (Just not
very often).
My 'lectronic Newb site http://members.shaw.ca/pmeloy/
Original Message
From: "Dwayne Reid" <dwayner@p...>
To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 1:43 PM
Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Water pipe pin hole problem
> At 01:12 PM 2/27/03 -0800, Tracy Allen wrote:
> >Hi Leroy,
> >
> >Bob Pease in Electronics Design magazine (I think it was he, there)
> >had an article about the process of troubleshooting as exemplified by
> >a water leak he had to track down in the roof of his house.
> >Troubleshooting is one of those things that crosses topical
> >boundaries.
> >
> >Bob's article archive:
> > http://www.elecdesign.com/Index.cfm?Action=Pease
> >
> >I don't know which article it was, but Bob's articles are always a
> >good read for electronics and beyond.
>
> This one, I think.
>
> <http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/Index.cfm?ArticleID=5910>
>
> dwayne
>
> --
> Dwayne Reid <dwayner@p...>
> Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd Edmonton, AB, CANADA
> (780) 489-3199 voice (780) 487-6397 fax
>
> Celebrating 19 years of Engineering Innovation (1984 - 2003)
> .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-
> `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-' `-'
> Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to this email address.
> This message neither grants consent to receive unsolicited
> commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial email.
>
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
Body of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>