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Running Two Stepper Motors (3rd try) — Parallax Forums

Running Two Stepper Motors (3rd try)

ArchiverArchiver Posts: 46,084
edited 2003-01-16 14:40 in General Discussion
Hi Ian,

(seems re-joining the group did the trick for me)

I tried posting this last night, but for some reason it didn't get
posted. I had a typo. (had to do with serial current and
parallel `current' not parallel `voltage')

A bit about steppers ; The industry puts a nameplate voltage on the
motors for calculations only. [noparse][[/noparse]except for Pacific Scientific] you
can verify your BASE DATA with ohms law and the resistance and
voltage or current. PacSci will be way off as they rate at
recommended voltage not lab calculation voltage. Has to do with
charging the motor.

Run them at a MINIMUM of 5 times nameplate voltage. At about 25
times nameplate voltage, the coils become saturated and there is no
additional benefit.

more voltage = more speed. 5 to 20 times nameplate is the range
where they actually perform well. Check the manufactures site, they
will use either 24 volts or 48 volts typically when showing
performance of their 5 volt motors.

Current is limited to nameplate for unipolar, but the power drain on
unipolar power supplies makes large motors expensive to run in
unipolar mode. Unipolar is fine for hobby work or applications where
power is not important. you will find dozens of very low power
unipolar drives and few for higher power units. Inversely, you will
mostly find chopper drives for high power units. Chopper perform so
much better it is not worth the effort to try to design a new uni-
polar drive.

Unipolar has an advantage when it comes to reversing speed. That is
from the nature of the V/L (voltage/inductance) relationship.
Unipolar drives charge one coil to spin one way, and another coil to
spin opposite. Bi-polar need to drain the coil first before they can
charge it to spin in the opposite direction. Typically reversing
speed is not critical.

If you use a chopper drive and wire the coils in series, you cut the
current in half. Wire them in parallel and you use nameplate
current. You can think of the motor nameplate as it's parallel rated
current. If you wire in series, you double the resistance, but
increase inductance by 4. Let me know if you want more data on this,
this post is long already and I don't want to add math to it.

Wiring the coils in series reduces top speed, but the motors run
cooler. At peak performance your hand would feel very uncomfortable
on a running stepper in parallel. they run HOT.

Most chopper drives in a reasonable price (less than $125.00) peak
out at about 70 volts so your 3 volt motors are perfect for a 25x
rating. This voltage is the highly sought voltage for the CNC-
machine tool crowd. Many steppers you see on e-bay are 5 volts or
over and are poor candidates. Higher voltage means very poor
performance.

If you have access to the unit you are looking into, check the power
supply voltage, and remember that on power supplies of this sort,
multiply the rectified DC by 1.414 to get the full DC voltage they
are using. Huge caps on the power supply are needed and they yield
near peak AC voltage, not RMS that you may be expecting or used to.
Math on request.

Choppers will also bring your coils up to full amps quickly and will
not use the full rated amps of the motor from the power supply. If
you have a 3 amp motor run from a chopper driver, expect to size the
power supply to 2 amps. Steppers are NOT like standard motors.
Again, math if you want it.

Another thing to be concerned about is back emf from the collapsing
coil, if you try to size your driver at peak voltage, the back emf
can increase the voltage over the power supply voltage by 5-10%. if
your driver chips are rated for 35 volts, design for 30 volts to be
on the safe side.

sounds like the unit you are looking into is engineered as a decent
piece of equipment, do you have a link to what you are trying to
duplicate ?

Dave




--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "Ian Phillips" <iphillips@s...>
wrote:
> I have looked at these but the amperage is to low. The stepper in
the
> demo unit is rated at 3.1 amp, 2.9vdc. I'm also not sure what kind
of a
> signal you would send to the driver.
>
>
Original Message
> From: Dennis P. O'Leary [noparse][[/noparse]mailto:doleary@e...]
> Sent: January 15, 2003 3:34 PM
> To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Running Two Stepper Motors
>
> Ian -
>
> Check out the motor controller and driver chips from SGS-Thomson,
> particularly the L297 and L298 combination.
>
> Dennis
>
>
Original Message
> From: iphillipsca <iphillips@s...>
> [noparse][[/noparse]mailto:iphillips@s...]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 6:32 AM
> To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Running Two Stepper Motors
>
>
> I am building a large (4'x 7') scroller similar to those display
> signs you see around. I have a demo unit that is using two large
> steppers and being controlled by a PIC to motor driver and then
> MOSFETs. They want $3000 for this unit and needless to say I think
> that I could build it much cheaper. Questions- to run two steppers
> and look for switches( initiate, limits, and possibly speed
control)
> could the 2sx do this quickly enough? To drive the higher load of
the
> larger than average steppers, I was planning to use a PAK 5(AWC are
> you out there?) to a MOSFET. Is this the best device for this? Any
> opinions, ideas appreciated. Ian
>
>
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>
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Comments

  • ArchiverArchiver Posts: 46,084
    edited 2003-01-16 13:53
    Thanks Dave for all the info. If you would like to know the make I'd
    rather tell you off group(copyrights and all that, don't want to get in
    trouble). The motors are from Tamagawa code TS3134N9. I couldn't find
    the exact match but found some close matches. The demo unit does have
    very large caps and at least 10 MOSFETS and 4 transistors in what must
    be the final output stage. I got a large amount of motor info from
    Thomson/Aipax. Too much almost. It'll take me a while to get through it
    all. I still have to find a similar motor. Digikey has a couple of large
    Thomson units that might do it but they are 5 and 12 volt at 7.5 degree
    with only 48 steps. If you know of a good source for large steppers I
    would appreciate it. Ian
    Original Message
    From: david_mucha <david_mucha@y...> [noparse]/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=Ku0TP-XKbtvNtcNvTl3Rg83cLomnesZtEjT25_lqHWuieMQH_9eE46BoiaSAjxJ2xcY5j4Se1OOTaHQ074HaLw]david_mucha@y...[/url

    Sent: January 16, 2003 8:12 AM
    To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Running Two Stepper Motors (3rd try)

    Hi Ian,

    (seems re-joining the group did the trick for me)

    I tried posting this last night, but for some reason it didn't get
    posted. I had a typo. (had to do with serial current and
    parallel `current' not parallel `voltage')

    A bit about steppers ; The industry puts a nameplate voltage on the
    motors for calculations only. [noparse][[/noparse]except for Pacific Scientific] you
    can verify your BASE DATA with ohms law and the resistance and
    voltage or current. PacSci will be way off as they rate at
    recommended voltage not lab calculation voltage. Has to do with
    charging the motor.

    Run them at a MINIMUM of 5 times nameplate voltage. At about 25
    times nameplate voltage, the coils become saturated and there is no
    additional benefit.

    more voltage = more speed. 5 to 20 times nameplate is the range
    where they actually perform well. Check the manufactures site, they
    will use either 24 volts or 48 volts typically when showing
    performance of their 5 volt motors.

    Current is limited to nameplate for unipolar, but the power drain on
    unipolar power supplies makes large motors expensive to run in
    unipolar mode. Unipolar is fine for hobby work or applications where
    power is not important. you will find dozens of very low power
    unipolar drives and few for higher power units. Inversely, you will
    mostly find chopper drives for high power units. Chopper perform so
    much better it is not worth the effort to try to design a new uni-
    polar drive.

    Unipolar has an advantage when it comes to reversing speed. That is
    from the nature of the V/L (voltage/inductance) relationship.
    Unipolar drives charge one coil to spin one way, and another coil to
    spin opposite. Bi-polar need to drain the coil first before they can
    charge it to spin in the opposite direction. Typically reversing
    speed is not critical.

    If you use a chopper drive and wire the coils in series, you cut the
    current in half. Wire them in parallel and you use nameplate
    current. You can think of the motor nameplate as it's parallel rated
    current. If you wire in series, you double the resistance, but
    increase inductance by 4. Let me know if you want more data on this,
    this post is long already and I don't want to add math to it.

    Wiring the coils in series reduces top speed, but the motors run
    cooler. At peak performance your hand would feel very uncomfortable
    on a running stepper in parallel. they run HOT.

    Most chopper drives in a reasonable price (less than $125.00) peak
    out at about 70 volts so your 3 volt motors are perfect for a 25x
    rating. This voltage is the highly sought voltage for the CNC-
    machine tool crowd. Many steppers you see on e-bay are 5 volts or
    over and are poor candidates. Higher voltage means very poor
    performance.

    If you have access to the unit you are looking into, check the power
    supply voltage, and remember that on power supplies of this sort,
    multiply the rectified DC by 1.414 to get the full DC voltage they
    are using. Huge caps on the power supply are needed and they yield
    near peak AC voltage, not RMS that you may be expecting or used to.
    Math on request.

    Choppers will also bring your coils up to full amps quickly and will
    not use the full rated amps of the motor from the power supply. If
    you have a 3 amp motor run from a chopper driver, expect to size the
    power supply to 2 amps. Steppers are NOT like standard motors.
    Again, math if you want it.

    Another thing to be concerned about is back emf from the collapsing
    coil, if you try to size your driver at peak voltage, the back emf
    can increase the voltage over the power supply voltage by 5-10%. if
    your driver chips are rated for 35 volts, design for 30 volts to be
    on the safe side.

    sounds like the unit you are looking into is engineered as a decent
    piece of equipment, do you have a link to what you are trying to
    duplicate ?

    Dave
  • ArchiverArchiver Posts: 46,084
    edited 2003-01-16 14:14
    A source for heavy duty industrial type steppers is Eastern Air Devices in
    Dover, NH. You might want to look at
    Part Number LB42BLK-5 or something similar. Be aware that they are
    expensive.

    Jim

    Original Message
    From: Ian Phillips [noparse]/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=JJzUvyEctgV64V6H8k_u6tif6f16WL21nUUcqJ7Bg6F_Caw8HBL0Yi0DV5rc4eimsvqr5I3nuIGdJXzxFtE]iphillips@s...[/url
    Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2003 8:53 AM
    To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: RE: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Running Two Stepper Motors (3rd try)




    Thanks Dave for all the info. If you would like to know the make I'd
    rather tell you off group(copyrights and all that, don't want to get in
    trouble). The motors are from Tamagawa code TS3134N9. I couldn't find
    the exact match but found some close matches. The demo unit does have
    very large caps and at least 10 MOSFETS and 4 transistors in what must
    be the final output stage. I got a large amount of motor info from
    Thomson/Aipax. Too much almost. It'll take me a while to get through it
    all. I still have to find a similar motor. Digikey has a couple of large
    Thomson units that might do it but they are 5 and 12 volt at 7.5 degree
    with only 48 steps. If you know of a good source for large steppers I
    would appreciate it. Ian
    Original Message
    From: david_mucha <david_mucha@y...> [noparse]/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=KfDK3AKpPo6NQ3-dNfIHOe0kzCClHSoX9RevNGTGxyw91VEKev3RqLu1FTnz-W03toFd77iAGaUuMrHQ]david_mucha@y...[/url

    Sent: January 16, 2003 8:12 AM
    To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Running Two Stepper Motors (3rd try)

    Hi Ian,

    (seems re-joining the group did the trick for me)

    I tried posting this last night, but for some reason it didn't get
    posted. I had a typo. (had to do with serial current and
    parallel `current' not parallel `voltage')

    A bit about steppers ; The industry puts a nameplate voltage on the
    motors for calculations only. [noparse][[/noparse]except for Pacific Scientific] you
    can verify your BASE DATA with ohms law and the resistance and
    voltage or current. PacSci will be way off as they rate at
    recommended voltage not lab calculation voltage. Has to do with
    charging the motor.

    Run them at a MINIMUM of 5 times nameplate voltage. At about 25
    times nameplate voltage, the coils become saturated and there is no
    additional benefit.

    more voltage = more speed. 5 to 20 times nameplate is the range
    where they actually perform well. Check the manufactures site, they
    will use either 24 volts or 48 volts typically when showing
    performance of their 5 volt motors.

    Current is limited to nameplate for unipolar, but the power drain on
    unipolar power supplies makes large motors expensive to run in
    unipolar mode. Unipolar is fine for hobby work or applications where
    power is not important. you will find dozens of very low power
    unipolar drives and few for higher power units. Inversely, you will
    mostly find chopper drives for high power units. Chopper perform so
    much better it is not worth the effort to try to design a new uni-
    polar drive.

    Unipolar has an advantage when it comes to reversing speed. That is
    from the nature of the V/L (voltage/inductance) relationship.
    Unipolar drives charge one coil to spin one way, and another coil to
    spin opposite. Bi-polar need to drain the coil first before they can
    charge it to spin in the opposite direction. Typically reversing
    speed is not critical.

    If you use a chopper drive and wire the coils in series, you cut the
    current in half. Wire them in parallel and you use nameplate
    current. You can think of the motor nameplate as it's parallel rated
    current. If you wire in series, you double the resistance, but
    increase inductance by 4. Let me know if you want more data on this,
    this post is long already and I don't want to add math to it.

    Wiring the coils in series reduces top speed, but the motors run
    cooler. At peak performance your hand would feel very uncomfortable
    on a running stepper in parallel. they run HOT.

    Most chopper drives in a reasonable price (less than $125.00) peak
    out at about 70 volts so your 3 volt motors are perfect for a 25x
    rating. This voltage is the highly sought voltage for the CNC-
    machine tool crowd. Many steppers you see on e-bay are 5 volts or
    over and are poor candidates. Higher voltage means very poor
    performance.

    If you have access to the unit you are looking into, check the power
    supply voltage, and remember that on power supplies of this sort,
    multiply the rectified DC by 1.414 to get the full DC voltage they
    are using. Huge caps on the power supply are needed and they yield
    near peak AC voltage, not RMS that you may be expecting or used to.
    Math on request.

    Choppers will also bring your coils up to full amps quickly and will
    not use the full rated amps of the motor from the power supply. If
    you have a 3 amp motor run from a chopper driver, expect to size the
    power supply to 2 amps. Steppers are NOT like standard motors.
    Again, math if you want it.

    Another thing to be concerned about is back emf from the collapsing
    coil, if you try to size your driver at peak voltage, the back emf
    can increase the voltage over the power supply voltage by 5-10%. if
    your driver chips are rated for 35 volts, design for 30 volts to be
    on the safe side.

    sounds like the unit you are looking into is engineered as a decent
    piece of equipment, do you have a link to what you are trying to
    duplicate ?

    Dave





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    [noparse][[/noparse]Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  • ArchiverArchiver Posts: 46,084
    edited 2003-01-16 14:40
    Hi Ian,

    I'm not sure what side of the pond you are on. if you are in the
    states, then Jameco has a wide (can cheap) selection of small
    steppers for hobby use.

    Once you move out of the hobby range, you enter the world of
    standards. NEMA lists motors as 17, 23, 34, 42 and so on. There is
    a limit to the size of a stepper so you will never see a NEMA86 or
    some such. each increase n size brings a limit to speed, so it is
    rare to find more than a NEMA34. has to do with time constants and
    coil charging.

    The unit you have is a model TS31 in a NEMA34 size (3.4 inches in
    diameter or 3.4" x3.4" if square. the rating from their site shows a
    powerful motor, at over 550 oz/in (4 newton meter)

    Sanyo Denki in the States makes nice motor, but new, these are pricey.

    To get a similar motor, look for NEMA34 and between 550oz/in to
    700oz/in or 4 to 4.5 newton meter torque.

    http://www.mendonet.com/steppers/nema34.htm

    regardng caps, yes, large caps. figure cap size is related to
    voltage and current.

    equation of (C= (80,000 * I) / V))
    C is the value in microfarads,
    I is the current and V is the voltage.
    assuming a low voltage power supply of 30 volts, and 3 amps, you
    would use 8,000uF for each motor, and get caps rated for at least 25%
    greater than your peak voltage.

    I have some lines on lower power units, NEMA34, 1.7 volt, 4.7 amps,
    at $50.00 they are much less than new units, and I think one third
    the power. yours are triple stack, or really 3 sets of coils for a
    long motor.

    and please e-mail me a link to the pic.

    Dave



    --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "Ian Phillips" <iphillips@s...>
    wrote:
    >
    >
    > Thanks Dave for all the info. If you would like to know the make I'd
    > rather tell you off group(copyrights and all that, don't want to
    get in
    > trouble). The motors are from Tamagawa code TS3134N9. I couldn't
    find
    > the exact match but found some close matches. The demo unit does
    have
    > very large caps and at least 10 MOSFETS and 4 transistors in what
    must
    > be the final output stage. I got a large amount of motor info from
    > Thomson/Aipax. Too much almost. It'll take me a while to get
    through it
    > all. I still have to find a similar motor. Digikey has a couple of
    large
    > Thomson units that might do it but they are 5 and 12 volt at 7.5
    degree
    > with only 48 steps. If you know of a good source for large steppers
    I
    > would appreciate it. Ian
    >
    Original Message
    > From: david_mucha <david_mucha@y...> [noparse][[/noparse]mailto:david_mucha@y...]
    >
    > Sent: January 16, 2003 8:12 AM
    > To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
    > Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Running Two Stepper Motors (3rd try)
    >
    > Hi Ian,
    >
    > (seems re-joining the group did the trick for me)
    >
    > I tried posting this last night, but for some reason it didn't get
    > posted. I had a typo. (had to do with serial current and
    > parallel `current' not parallel `voltage')
    >
    > A bit about steppers ; The industry puts a nameplate voltage on the
    > motors for calculations only. [noparse][[/noparse]except for Pacific Scientific] you
    > can verify your BASE DATA with ohms law and the resistance and
    > voltage or current. PacSci will be way off as they rate at
    > recommended voltage not lab calculation voltage. Has to do with
    > charging the motor.
    >
    > Run them at a MINIMUM of 5 times nameplate voltage. At about 25
    > times nameplate voltage, the coils become saturated and there is no
    > additional benefit.
    >
    > more voltage = more speed. 5 to 20 times nameplate is the range
    > where they actually perform well. Check the manufactures site,
    they
    > will use either 24 volts or 48 volts typically when showing
    > performance of their 5 volt motors.
    >
    > Current is limited to nameplate for unipolar, but the power drain
    on
    > unipolar power supplies makes large motors expensive to run in
    > unipolar mode. Unipolar is fine for hobby work or applications
    where
    > power is not important. you will find dozens of very low power
    > unipolar drives and few for higher power units. Inversely, you
    will
    > mostly find chopper drives for high power units. Chopper perform
    so
    > much better it is not worth the effort to try to design a new uni-
    > polar drive.
    >
    > Unipolar has an advantage when it comes to reversing speed. That is
    > from the nature of the V/L (voltage/inductance) relationship.
    > Unipolar drives charge one coil to spin one way, and another coil
    to
    > spin opposite. Bi-polar need to drain the coil first before they
    can
    > charge it to spin in the opposite direction. Typically reversing
    > speed is not critical.
    >
    > If you use a chopper drive and wire the coils in series, you cut
    the
    > current in half. Wire them in parallel and you use nameplate
    > current. You can think of the motor nameplate as it's parallel
    rated
    > current. If you wire in series, you double the resistance, but
    > increase inductance by 4. Let me know if you want more data on
    this,
    > this post is long already and I don't want to add math to it.
    >
    > Wiring the coils in series reduces top speed, but the motors run
    > cooler. At peak performance your hand would feel very
    uncomfortable
    > on a running stepper in parallel. they run HOT.
    >
    > Most chopper drives in a reasonable price (less than $125.00) peak
    > out at about 70 volts so your 3 volt motors are perfect for a 25x
    > rating. This voltage is the highly sought voltage for the CNC-
    > machine tool crowd. Many steppers you see on e-bay are 5 volts or
    > over and are poor candidates. Higher voltage means very poor
    > performance.
    >
    > If you have access to the unit you are looking into, check the
    power
    > supply voltage, and remember that on power supplies of this sort,
    > multiply the rectified DC by 1.414 to get the full DC voltage they
    > are using. Huge caps on the power supply are needed and they yield
    > near peak AC voltage, not RMS that you may be expecting or used
    to.
    > Math on request.
    >
    > Choppers will also bring your coils up to full amps quickly and
    will
    > not use the full rated amps of the motor from the power supply. If
    > you have a 3 amp motor run from a chopper driver, expect to size
    the
    > power supply to 2 amps. Steppers are NOT like standard motors.
    > Again, math if you want it.
    >
    > Another thing to be concerned about is back emf from the collapsing
    > coil, if you try to size your driver at peak voltage, the back emf
    > can increase the voltage over the power supply voltage by 5-10%.
    if
    > your driver chips are rated for 35 volts, design for 30 volts to be
    > on the safe side.
    >
    > sounds like the unit you are looking into is engineered as a decent
    > piece of equipment, do you have a link to what you are trying to
    > duplicate ?
    >
    > Dave
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