Lead Acid Battery Desulfators
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Posts: 46,084
If there are any folks that had wondered about the effectiveness of lead
acid battery desulfators, the following link should dispel any remaining
doubt.
http://www.exideworld.com/News/pressrelease/technology/20021105_exide_introduces\
_charging_unit.html
It seems that some battery manufacturers are beginning to see the light
and are starting to use desulfators at the retail level. I suspect that
the unit mentioned is one of the pulse charging variants of desulfators.
Pulse charging is one of many methods of desulfating a battery of lead
sulfates that are immune to removal by standard battery charging voltage
levels even at the so called equalizing levels (15V to 16V) for a 12V
battery.
As I suspect that desulfators will not be sold to the consumer through
battery outlets, those interested in DIY are invited to participate in
cobbling their own to restore your batteries.
DIY plans and early discussion of homemade desulfators can be found at,
http://shaka.com/~kalepa/desulf.htm
Current discussion of desulfation techniques and planet wide help can be
found at the BBS,
http://pub36.ezboard.com/bleadacidbatterydesulfation
The circuits shown at the links above are easily adaptable to being
controlled by a Stamp in lieu of the 555 IC used. You merely connect a
NTC thermistor to the FET and sense temperature using the RCTIME or POT
commands. A sample PRF program has been uploaded to the "Files" section
of this board.
The BASIC Stamp BS2sx has demonstrated it is a superior controller due
to it's 0.8uSec PULSOUT command. This allows for an extremely fine
grained tuning of an inductor set. When using a PWM program to keep the
inductors at or near saturation results in the most powerful and fast
running desulfator on the planet.
Any Stamp can be used. Even the BS1 works well running a program that
alters PRF in order to control heat gain.
As I get the time I'll upload some chicken scratch schematics and
programs for those interested.
acid battery desulfators, the following link should dispel any remaining
doubt.
http://www.exideworld.com/News/pressrelease/technology/20021105_exide_introduces\
_charging_unit.html
It seems that some battery manufacturers are beginning to see the light
and are starting to use desulfators at the retail level. I suspect that
the unit mentioned is one of the pulse charging variants of desulfators.
Pulse charging is one of many methods of desulfating a battery of lead
sulfates that are immune to removal by standard battery charging voltage
levels even at the so called equalizing levels (15V to 16V) for a 12V
battery.
As I suspect that desulfators will not be sold to the consumer through
battery outlets, those interested in DIY are invited to participate in
cobbling their own to restore your batteries.
DIY plans and early discussion of homemade desulfators can be found at,
http://shaka.com/~kalepa/desulf.htm
Current discussion of desulfation techniques and planet wide help can be
found at the BBS,
http://pub36.ezboard.com/bleadacidbatterydesulfation
The circuits shown at the links above are easily adaptable to being
controlled by a Stamp in lieu of the 555 IC used. You merely connect a
NTC thermistor to the FET and sense temperature using the RCTIME or POT
commands. A sample PRF program has been uploaded to the "Files" section
of this board.
The BASIC Stamp BS2sx has demonstrated it is a superior controller due
to it's 0.8uSec PULSOUT command. This allows for an extremely fine
grained tuning of an inductor set. When using a PWM program to keep the
inductors at or near saturation results in the most powerful and fast
running desulfator on the planet.
Any Stamp can be used. Even the BS1 works well running a program that
alters PRF in order to control heat gain.
As I get the time I'll upload some chicken scratch schematics and
programs for those interested.
Comments
www.exideworld.com/News/pressrelease/technology/20021105_exide_introduces_chargi\
ng_unit.html
you keep the battery fully charged. This looks like a fancy (more costly)
way to sell a multi-bank (10) trickle charger. Probably useful for stores
that have up to ten batteries and a very low turnover rate, but hard to see
how this would be useful to an end-user.
Lee Mairs
Original Message
From: "Don Denhardt" <dondenhardt@y...>
To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 7:10 AM
Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Lead Acid Battery Desulfators
> If there are any folks that had wondered about the effectiveness of lead
> acid battery desulfators, the following link should dispel any remaining
> doubt.
>
>
http://www.exideworld.com/News/pressrelease/technology/20021105_exide_introd
uces_charging_unit.html
>
There are already pleanty of those on the market. Of course they ar
not using the term desufate as that would turn up the DIY lists on an
internet search.
http://www.vdcelectronics.com/press_room.htm
Any smart shop who moved a lot of batteries would use this stuff.
farm/tractor supply, large truck centers, rental places, the list
goes on. There are dozens if not hundreds of places that would
benefit from such a unit.
I see pleanty of markets for such a unit. how about your marina that
will store your boat battery over the winter ? By spring your
battery would be better than it was at the end of the season and the
fee would make everybody happy.
This technology will change the way we think about car batteries.
Not that lead acid will be around all that much longer. Fuel cells
will make lead acid look like buggy whips in 50 years. heck, my cell
phone uses a NiMH battery. That's nickel metal hydride, the hydride
being the hydrogene part that is part of the fuel cell technology.
http://popularmechanics.mondosearch.com/cgi-bin/MsmGo.exe?
grab_id=67647455&EXTRA_ARG=&CFGNAME=MssFind%
2Ecfg&host_id=1&page_id=5932&query=fuel+cell&hiword=FUEL+CELL+CELLS+FU
ELING+FUELS+FUELED+CELLING+FUELER+FUELERS+FUELIN+FUELIE+CELLO+FUELA+CE
LLES+
sorry for the long url.
Dave
--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "Lee Mairs \(SAG\)" <lmairs@s...>
wrote:
> Since when was battery charging called de-sulfating? Sulfate won't
form if
> you keep the battery fully charged. This looks like a fancy (more
costly)
> way to sell a multi-bank (10) trickle charger. Probably useful for
stores
> that have up to ten batteries and a very low turnover rate, but
hard to see
> how this would be useful to an end-user.
>
> Lee Mairs
>
>
Original Message
> From: "Don Denhardt" <dondenhardt@y...>
> To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 7:10 AM
> Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Lead Acid Battery Desulfators
>
>
> > If there are any folks that had wondered about the effectiveness
of lead
> > acid battery desulfators, the following link should dispel any
remaining
> > doubt.
> >
> >
>
http://www.exideworld.com/News/pressrelease/technology/20021105_exide_
introd
> uces_charging_unit.html
> >
It is a pulse charger. If the rise time of the pulse is fast enough and
the voltage spike double the battery voltage, it will desulfate a
battery. There are some types of sulfate formations in a battery that
will not clean up when recharging.
Sulfates do form even if you attempt to keep a battery fully charged,
unless you have it connected to a small charger to keep them at float
voltages 24/7. New batteries at the wholesale and retail level will
sulfate as they sit on the shelf and self discharge. The new battery
you typically purchase takes from 2 to 5 days of pulse conditioning to
bring it up to full power.
There had been some previous discussion about desulfators and some found
it difficult to believe that you could keep a starter battery functional
for 20 to 70 years.
There are many end users that could benefit from desulfating their
batteries as some folks have many (car, boat, garden tractor,
motorcycle, etc...). Recovery rates are about 1 day per pound of
starter battery for batteries that have failed due to sulfation.
Other end users that live off grid and depend upon large expensive deep
discharge battery banks to store their wind or photovoltaic generated
power have chronically undercharged banks which will sulfate up fairly
rapidly. They may have anywhere from $500 to $5,000 invested in their
bank which in some cases have been known to fail in as little as 1 to 2
years.
I got into pulsing batteries when I got sick and tired of replacing
garden tractor and motorcycle batteries on a yearly basis. I discovered
DIY designs at,
http://shaka.com/~kalepa/desulf.htm
The adaptation of the output stages to a BASIC Stamp to control was
fairly easy and made for one of the most powerful desulfators on the
planet.
"Lee Mairs (SAG)" wrote:
>
> Since when was battery charging called de-sulfating? Sulfate won't form if
> you keep the battery fully charged. This looks like a fancy (more costly)
> way to sell a multi-bank (10) trickle charger. Probably useful for stores
> that have up to ten batteries and a very low turnover rate, but hard to see
> how this would be useful to an end-user.
>
> Lee Mairs
>
>
Original Message
> From: "Don Denhardt" <dondenhardt@y...>
> To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 7:10 AM
> Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Lead Acid Battery Desulfators
>
> > If there are any folks that had wondered about the effectiveness of lead
> > acid battery desulfators, the following link should dispel any remaining
> > doubt.
> >
> >
> http://www.exideworld.com/News/pressrelease/technology/20021105_exide_introd
> uces_charging_unit.html
> >
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and Body
of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
I have a solar powered beach house on an island off the grid near NYC. I
just finished my 5th season on the original Trojan T105 batteries w/o
problems. If batteries are re-charged as soon as they get down to 50%
capacity the sulfate remains in a powdery form and is easily converted by
the chemical action. Its folks that leave the batteries alone for months at
a time that have the problem. Lawn tractors, boats and my Austin Healey
fall into this category.
I need to read up on these pulse charging schedules, but from what you said
it sounds like a modified equalization charge using the leading edge of the
pulse.
Thanks for the info.
Lee
Original Message
From: "Don Denhardt" <dondenhardt@y...>
To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 2:03 AM
Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Lead Acid Battery Desulfators
> Hi Lee,
>
>
> It is a pulse charger. If the rise time of the pulse is fast enough and
> the voltage spike double the battery voltage, it will desulfate a
> battery. There are some types of sulfate formations in a battery that
> will not clean up when recharging.
>
> Sulfates do form even if you attempt to keep a battery fully charged,
> unless you have it connected to a small charger to keep them at float
> voltages 24/7. New batteries at the wholesale and retail level will
> sulfate as they sit on the shelf and self discharge. The new battery
> you typically purchase takes from 2 to 5 days of pulse conditioning to
> bring it up to full power.
>
> There had been some previous discussion about desulfators and some found
> it difficult to believe that you could keep a starter battery functional
> for 20 to 70 years.
>
> There are many end users that could benefit from desulfating their
> batteries as some folks have many (car, boat, garden tractor,
> motorcycle, etc...). Recovery rates are about 1 day per pound of
> starter battery for batteries that have failed due to sulfation.
>
> Other end users that live off grid and depend upon large expensive deep
> discharge battery banks to store their wind or photovoltaic generated
> power have chronically undercharged banks which will sulfate up fairly
> rapidly. They may have anywhere from $500 to $5,000 invested in their
> bank which in some cases have been known to fail in as little as 1 to 2
> years.
>
> I got into pulsing batteries when I got sick and tired of replacing
> garden tractor and motorcycle batteries on a yearly basis. I discovered
> DIY designs at,
> http://shaka.com/~kalepa/desulf.htm
>
> The adaptation of the output stages to a BASIC Stamp to control was
> fairly easy and made for one of the most powerful desulfators on the
> planet.
>
>
>
>
> "Lee Mairs (SAG)" wrote:
> >
> > Since when was battery charging called de-sulfating? Sulfate won't form
if
> > you keep the battery fully charged. This looks like a fancy (more
costly)
> > way to sell a multi-bank (10) trickle charger. Probably useful for
stores
> > that have up to ten batteries and a very low turnover rate, but hard to
see
> > how this would be useful to an end-user.
> >
> > Lee Mairs
> >
> >
Original Message
> > From: "Don Denhardt" <dondenhardt@y...>
> > To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 7:10 AM
> > Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Lead Acid Battery Desulfators
> >
> > > If there are any folks that had wondered about the effectiveness of
lead
> > > acid battery desulfators, the following link should dispel any
remaining
> > > doubt.
> > >
> > >
> >
http://www.exideworld.com/News/pressrelease/technology/20021105_exide_introd
> > uces_charging_unit.html
> > >
> >
> > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject
and Body of the message will be ignored.
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
Body of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
make a piezoelectric load cell?
Original Message
From: <davemucha@j...>
To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 6:20 PM
Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Lead Acid Battery Desulfators
> From the article, it is not an end user product.
> There are already pleanty of those on the market. Of course they ar
> not using the term desufate as that would turn up the DIY lists on an
> internet search.
> http://www.vdcelectronics.com/press_room.htm
>
> Any smart shop who moved a lot of batteries would use this stuff.
> farm/tractor supply, large truck centers, rental places, the list
> goes on. There are dozens if not hundreds of places that would
> benefit from such a unit.
>
> I see pleanty of markets for such a unit. how about your marina that
> will store your boat battery over the winter ? By spring your
> battery would be better than it was at the end of the season and the
> fee would make everybody happy.
>
> This technology will change the way we think about car batteries.
> Not that lead acid will be around all that much longer. Fuel cells
> will make lead acid look like buggy whips in 50 years. heck, my cell
> phone uses a NiMH battery. That's nickel metal hydride, the hydride
> being the hydrogene part that is part of the fuel cell technology.
>
> http://popularmechanics.mondosearch.com/cgi-bin/MsmGo.exe?
> grab_id=67647455&EXTRA_ARG=&CFGNAME=MssFind%
> 2Ecfg&host_id=1&page_id=5932&query=fuel+cell&hiword=FUEL+CELL+CELLS+FU
> ELING+FUELS+FUELED+CELLING+FUELER+FUELERS+FUELIN+FUELIE+CELLO+FUELA+CE
> LLES+
>
> sorry for the long url.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "Lee Mairs \(SAG\)" <lmairs@s...>
> wrote:
> > Since when was battery charging called de-sulfating? Sulfate won't
> form if
> > you keep the battery fully charged. This looks like a fancy (more
> costly)
> > way to sell a multi-bank (10) trickle charger. Probably useful for
> stores
> > that have up to ten batteries and a very low turnover rate, but
> hard to see
> > how this would be useful to an end-user.
> >
> > Lee Mairs
> >
> >
Original Message
> > From: "Don Denhardt" <dondenhardt@y...>
> > To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 7:10 AM
> > Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Lead Acid Battery Desulfators
> >
> >
> > > If there are any folks that had wondered about the effectiveness
> of lead
> > > acid battery desulfators, the following link should dispel any
> remaining
> > > doubt.
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.exideworld.com/News/pressrelease/technology/20021105_exide_
> introd
> > uces_charging_unit.html
> > >
>
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
Body of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
You are fortunate. If NYC represents New York City, your location is
helping. Self discharging and sulfation formation rates increase in a
non-linear fashion in response to temperature increases. Folks that
live in warmer climates do not fare as well. I hear from many in warmer
climes that only 1 to 2 years max from their bank.
But even your bank will fall prey to sulfation buildup eventually.
Yours will simply take a tad longer than others. Especially if you are
only taking them down to a 50% state of charge. Check the SG of the
cells for variance to insure your bank is healthy.
If you have any lost capacity on your bank (cell SG variation), I
believe Morning Star PWM charge controllers will assist in bringing them
back.
Batteries that are left alone generally fall victim to electrolyte
stratification (acid settles to the bottom of the case) and sulfation.
Batteries require periodic gassing in order to stir up the electrolyte
and keep it well mixed.
But if the day ever comes that your bank begins to fail, a Stamp pulser
will revive it quickly.
Another simple desulfation technique is to use the Stamp as a pulse
charging controller. Merely take an FET and connect in series with a
battery that is connected to a voltage source that is at least double to
triple the battery voltage. Pulse the battery (turn on the FET) with
10uSec pulses. OR using thermistors to monitor FET temps allow the
pulse width to increase until the FET is 20DegF warmer than ambient.
You should not overcharge the battery with small pulse duration pulses.
"Lee Mairs (SAG)" wrote:
>
> Don -
> I have a solar powered beach house on an island off the grid near NYC. I
> just finished my 5th season on the original Trojan T105 batteries w/o
> problems. If batteries are re-charged as soon as they get down to 50%
> capacity the sulfate remains in a powdery form and is easily converted by
> the chemical action. Its folks that leave the batteries alone for months at
> a time that have the problem. Lawn tractors, boats and my Austin Healey
> fall into this category.
>
> I need to read up on these pulse charging schedules, but from what you said
> it sounds like a modified equalization charge using the leading edge of the
> pulse.
>
> Thanks for the info.
> Lee
>
>
Original Message
> From: "Don Denhardt" <dondenhardt@y...>
> To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 2:03 AM
> Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Lead Acid Battery Desulfators
>
> > Hi Lee,
> >
> >
> > It is a pulse charger. If the rise time of the pulse is fast enough and
> > the voltage spike double the battery voltage, it will desulfate a
> > battery. There are some types of sulfate formations in a battery that
> > will not clean up when recharging.
> >
> > Sulfates do form even if you attempt to keep a battery fully charged,
> > unless you have it connected to a small charger to keep them at float
> > voltages 24/7. New batteries at the wholesale and retail level will
> > sulfate as they sit on the shelf and self discharge. The new battery
> > you typically purchase takes from 2 to 5 days of pulse conditioning to
> > bring it up to full power.
> >
> > There had been some previous discussion about desulfators and some found
> > it difficult to believe that you could keep a starter battery functional
> > for 20 to 70 years.
> >
> > There are many end users that could benefit from desulfating their
> > batteries as some folks have many (car, boat, garden tractor,
> > motorcycle, etc...). Recovery rates are about 1 day per pound of
> > starter battery for batteries that have failed due to sulfation.
> >
> > Other end users that live off grid and depend upon large expensive deep
> > discharge battery banks to store their wind or photovoltaic generated
> > power have chronically undercharged banks which will sulfate up fairly
> > rapidly. They may have anywhere from $500 to $5,000 invested in their
> > bank which in some cases have been known to fail in as little as 1 to 2
> > years.
> >
> > I got into pulsing batteries when I got sick and tired of replacing
> > garden tractor and motorcycle batteries on a yearly basis. I discovered
> > DIY designs at,
> > http://shaka.com/~kalepa/desulf.htm
> >
> > The adaptation of the output stages to a BASIC Stamp to control was
> > fairly easy and made for one of the most powerful desulfators on the
> > planet.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Lee Mairs (SAG)" wrote:
> > >
> > > Since when was battery charging called de-sulfating? Sulfate won't form
> if
> > > you keep the battery fully charged. This looks like a fancy (more
> costly)
> > > way to sell a multi-bank (10) trickle charger. Probably useful for
> stores
> > > that have up to ten batteries and a very low turnover rate, but hard to
> see
> > > how this would be useful to an end-user.
> > >
> > > Lee Mairs
> > >
> > >
Original Message
> > > From: "Don Denhardt" <dondenhardt@y...>
> > > To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 7:10 AM
> > > Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Lead Acid Battery Desulfators
> > >
> > > > If there are any folks that had wondered about the effectiveness of
> lead
> > > > acid battery desulfators, the following link should dispel any
> remaining
> > > > doubt.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> http://www.exideworld.com/News/pressrelease/technology/20021105_exide_introd
> > > uces_charging_unit.html
> > > >
> > >
> > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject
> and Body of the message will be ignored.
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
> Body of the message will be ignored.
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and Body
of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
I would have to disagree with you about service life on batteries that
are lightly loaded and recharged.
If you have ever replaced a car battery that has given less than 20
years service, you have just invalidated any theory regarding the
success of a charging system alone keeping a battery sulfate free.
"Lee Mairs (SAG)" wrote:
>
> Don -
> I have a solar powered beach house on an island off the grid near NYC. I
> just finished my 5th season on the original Trojan T105 batteries w/o
> problems. If batteries are re-charged as soon as they get down to 50%
> capacity the sulfate remains in a powdery form and is easily converted by
> the chemical action. Its folks that leave the batteries alone for months at
> a time that have the problem. Lawn tractors, boats and my Austin Healey
> fall into this category.
>
> I need to read up on these pulse charging schedules, but from what you said
> it sounds like a modified equalization charge using the leading edge of the
> pulse.
>
> Thanks for the info.
> Lee
>
>
Original Message
> From: "Don Denhardt" <dondenhardt@y...>
> To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 2:03 AM
> Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Lead Acid Battery Desulfators
>
> > Hi Lee,
> >
> >
> > It is a pulse charger. If the rise time of the pulse is fast enough and
> > the voltage spike double the battery voltage, it will desulfate a
> > battery. There are some types of sulfate formations in a battery that
> > will not clean up when recharging.
> >
> > Sulfates do form even if you attempt to keep a battery fully charged,
> > unless you have it connected to a small charger to keep them at float
> > voltages 24/7. New batteries at the wholesale and retail level will
> > sulfate as they sit on the shelf and self discharge. The new battery
> > you typically purchase takes from 2 to 5 days of pulse conditioning to
> > bring it up to full power.
> >
> > There had been some previous discussion about desulfators and some found
> > it difficult to believe that you could keep a starter battery functional
> > for 20 to 70 years.
> >
> > There are many end users that could benefit from desulfating their
> > batteries as some folks have many (car, boat, garden tractor,
> > motorcycle, etc...). Recovery rates are about 1 day per pound of
> > starter battery for batteries that have failed due to sulfation.
> >
> > Other end users that live off grid and depend upon large expensive deep
> > discharge battery banks to store their wind or photovoltaic generated
> > power have chronically undercharged banks which will sulfate up fairly
> > rapidly. They may have anywhere from $500 to $5,000 invested in their
> > bank which in some cases have been known to fail in as little as 1 to 2
> > years.
> >
> > I got into pulsing batteries when I got sick and tired of replacing
> > garden tractor and motorcycle batteries on a yearly basis. I discovered
> > DIY designs at,
> > http://shaka.com/~kalepa/desulf.htm
> >
> > The adaptation of the output stages to a BASIC Stamp to control was
> > fairly easy and made for one of the most powerful desulfators on the
> > planet.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Lee Mairs (SAG)" wrote:
> > >
> > > Since when was battery charging called de-sulfating? Sulfate won't form
> if
> > > you keep the battery fully charged. This looks like a fancy (more
> costly)
> > > way to sell a multi-bank (10) trickle charger. Probably useful for
> stores
> > > that have up to ten batteries and a very low turnover rate, but hard to
> see
> > > how this would be useful to an end-user.
> > >
> > > Lee Mairs
> > >
> > >
Original Message
> > > From: "Don Denhardt" <dondenhardt@y...>
> > > To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 7:10 AM
> > > Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Lead Acid Battery Desulfators
> > >
> > > > If there are any folks that had wondered about the effectiveness of
> lead
> > > > acid battery desulfators, the following link should dispel any
> remaining
> > > > doubt.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> http://www.exideworld.com/News/pressrelease/technology/20021105_exide_introd
> > > uces_charging_unit.html
> > > >
> > >
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full charge. As such
I keep a small solar panel on my boat for the deep cycle battery, but
nothing on the starting battery.
This leaves me wondering if a symbiosis between the two batteries (a common
marine arrangement) could
be derived - if one battery could be used to pulse the other at night and
re-charge itself during the
daylight hours...
Perhaps I've introduced some confusion along the way.
There are two methods of pulsing a battery with a fast rising pulse to
desulfate them.
The original method is pulse charging. This is where the batt is
subjected to voltages much higher than may be found in automotive
chargers. The voltages used and the duration of the pulse vary between
manufacturers and the charge regimen involved. This kind of rules out
using one battery to pulse another with. Unless you want to go through
the unneeded complexity of building up a pulse transformer.
The second method is to use inductive flyback. These devices are simply
known as dedicated desulfators or pulsers. This is the concept being
exploited by many pulser manufacturers and by us at the DIY website.
Although not shown, Stamps make excellent controllers for the process
and allow you to ride the racers edge of inductor saturation and really
thunder out some pulses (IF you are monitoring component temps with
thermistors [noparse]:)[/noparse]
http://shaka.com/~kalepa/desulf.htm
The inductive flyback created from an inductor pair that when the
current through the inductors is shutoff, an inductive spike is created
that is at least double the battery voltage. This method simply uses
power from the battery being conditioned to operate. Normally the
current draw is in the 0.050A range, more if you are using a Stamp to
control FET conduction time and monitor component temperatures. For
batteries in daily cyclic use (alternative energy systems, automotive,
etc...), there is no need to bother with making up the power consumed as
the current draw is light and the charging systems will make up the
loss.
Batteries being conditioned "Offline" require the use of a very small
trickle charger to make up the power lost using a pulser and to recharge
the newly exposed plate area as the battery is being cleaned up.
You could hang pulsers on both of your batteries provided that coming
from the solar panel both batteries are isolated by diodes.
As starter batteries clean up quickly, another option for you is to
simply hang a pulser on the starter battery one month out of the year
and leave it connected to the deep discharge types for the remainder.
You may want to include the disposition of your batteries in your Will.
[noparse]:)[/noparse]
This assumes that the boat is being used at least once a month in order
that the charging system can gas the batteries to keep the electrolyte
mixed. Failure to do this leaves you with stratified electrolyte batts
and the beginnings of many problems that are difficult to treat.
"Chris Loiacono (E-mail)" wrote:
>
> I have read that deep cycle batteries will benefit most from being kept at
> full charge. As such
> I keep a small solar panel on my boat for the deep cycle battery, but
> nothing on the starting battery.
> This leaves me wondering if a symbiosis between the two batteries (a common
> marine arrangement) could
> be derived - if one battery could be used to pulse the other at night and
> re-charge itself during the
> daylight hours...
>
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of the message will be ignored.
>
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batteries have the same requirements.
Both types benefit from being held (floated) at a full charge. Floating
a batt is where only enough energy is given to a battery to overcome
self-discharging losses. Float voltages depend on ambient air or
battery temperatures, battery type, sulfuric acid blend and plate
chemistry.
Both need to be periodically gassed to prevent electrolyte
stratification.
"Chris Loiacono (E-mail)" wrote:
>
> I have read that deep cycle batteries will benefit most from being kept at
> full charge. As such
> I keep a small solar panel on my boat for the deep cycle battery, but
> nothing on the starting battery.
> This leaves me wondering if a symbiosis between the two batteries (a common
> marine arrangement) could
> be derived - if one battery could be used to pulse the other at night and
> re-charge itself during the
> daylight hours...
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and Body
of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
I have a circuit that takes in your lower voltage and doubles it then
pulses.
all analog, quad op amp one P-MOSFET, couple status LED's. not hard
to convert to a Stamp for monitoring or control.
it's in ExpressPCB currently. let me know if you might want to look
at it or maybe go in to get one of the boards.
I just completed it, and am not fixed on the design. improvements
are welcome in case you want.
Dave
--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Loiacono \(E-mail\)"
<chris01@t...> wrote:
> I have read that deep cycle batteries will benefit most from being
kept at
> full charge. As such
> I keep a small solar panel on my boat for the deep cycle battery,
but
> nothing on the starting battery.
> This leaves me wondering if a symbiosis between the two batteries
(a common
> marine arrangement) could
> be derived - if one battery could be used to pulse the other at
night and
> re-charge itself during the
> daylight hours...
The pulsers we use, I believe, has it's origins in DC to DC conversion.
Buck and Boost????? Common circuit I am given to understand.
As a pulser we simply try to get close to inductor saturation without
damage to get max pulse out.
The battery voltages can vary whether conditioning offline or online as
they are cycled or as battery voltage rises in response to conditioning.
With the varying voltages FET conduction time has to be closely
controlled to avoid clouds of black smoke and and the odor of smoldering
or burning polyolefin [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Would love to see what you came up with though. Might induce new
directions.
Although right now I am up to my A-- in alligators as I got swamped with
orders. I hope to have my backlog cleared out today so I can actually
do some new work with a pulse charging circuit I have in mind.
"Dave Mucha " wrote:
>
> Interesting,
>
> I have a circuit that takes in your lower voltage and doubles it then
> pulses.
>
> all analog, quad op amp one P-MOSFET, couple status LED's. not hard
> to convert to a Stamp for monitoring or control.
>
> it's in ExpressPCB currently. let me know if you might want to look
> at it or maybe go in to get one of the boards.
>
> I just completed it, and am not fixed on the design. improvements
> are welcome in case you want.
>
> Dave
>
> --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Loiacono \(E-mail\)"
> <chris01@t...> wrote:
> > I have read that deep cycle batteries will benefit most from being
> kept at
> > full charge. As such
> > I keep a small solar panel on my boat for the deep cycle battery,
> but
> > nothing on the starting battery.
> > This leaves me wondering if a symbiosis between the two batteries
> (a common
> > marine arrangement) could
> > be derived - if one battery could be used to pulse the other at
> night and
> > re-charge itself during the
> > daylight hours...
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
area. See if it looks familiar.
"Dave Mucha " wrote:
>
> Interesting,
>
> I have a circuit that takes in your lower voltage and doubles it then
> pulses.
>
> all analog, quad op amp one P-MOSFET, couple status LED's. not hard
> to convert to a Stamp for monitoring or control.
>
> it's in ExpressPCB currently. let me know if you might want to look
> at it or maybe go in to get one of the boards.
>
> I just completed it, and am not fixed on the design. improvements
> are welcome in case you want.
>
> Dave
>
> --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Loiacono \(E-mail\)"
> <chris01@t...> wrote:
> > I have read that deep cycle batteries will benefit most from being
> kept at
> > full charge. As such
> > I keep a small solar panel on my boat for the deep cycle battery,
> but
> > nothing on the starting battery.
> > This leaves me wondering if a symbiosis between the two batteries
> (a common
> > marine arrangement) could
> > be derived - if one battery could be used to pulse the other at
> night and
> > re-charge itself during the
> > daylight hours...
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and Body
of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
heavy lines are the pulse path. I beef them up on the circuit board
with desolder braid to lower the inductive loss on the board.
Don Denhardt wrote:
>
> I've uploaded one of my chicken scratching schematics in the "Photos"
> area. See if it looks familiar.
>
> "Dave Mucha " wrote:
> >
> > Interesting,
> >
> > I have a circuit that takes in your lower voltage and doubles it then
> > pulses.
> >
> > all analog, quad op amp one P-MOSFET, couple status LED's. not hard
> > to convert to a Stamp for monitoring or control.
> >
> > it's in ExpressPCB currently. let me know if you might want to look
> > at it or maybe go in to get one of the boards.
> >
> > I just completed it, and am not fixed on the design. improvements
> > are welcome in case you want.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Loiacono \(E-mail\)"
> > <chris01@t...> wrote:
> > > I have read that deep cycle batteries will benefit most from being
> > kept at
> > > full charge. As such
> > > I keep a small solar panel on my boat for the deep cycle battery,
> > but
> > > nothing on the starting battery.
> > > This leaves me wondering if a symbiosis between the two batteries
> > (a common
> > > marine arrangement) could
> > > be derived - if one battery could be used to pulse the other at
> > night and
> > > re-charge itself during the
> > > daylight hours...
> >
> > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
Body of the message will be ignored.
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
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>
>
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