Fuel use, was Re: Automotive/Marine application s
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Posts: 46,084
The multiple different views expressed by the contributors show that this
set of problems does not have a particularly easy solution, although many of
them are clearly within the capability of the Stamp.
In the aviation community, two instruments that get a lot of attention are
the fuel quantity, and the fuel flow. Using those two, and your
airspeed/groundspeed you have a reasonable chance of getting to a
destination with sufficient fuel to complete a safe landing. However, there
are two different "optimum" speeds that are used in different circumstances.
One is the speed for best range (i.e., going the furthest distance), the
other is the speed for best endurance (i.e., staying airborne for the
longest time). They are not the same speeds and to the best of my
recollection, both vary with altitude and aircraft weight (which varies with
the amount of fuel remaining...).
In the marine environment, there are similar but different issues. Where
there are currents of any magnitude, the current very quickly becomes a
factor. (image heading up river in a 5 knot boat with the current at 5
knots down the river, getting nowhere fast...)
Add to this the maritime problem of strange drag curves with planing and
displacement hulls and you quickly see that the solution you select really
depends on what you want to know.
In my view for any useful marine application involving fuel, at a minimum,
you need to be able to accurately determine the amount of fuel that you are
using at any given point in time and you need something to measure two
velocities. An in-line flow meter that can provide relative flow rates,
even if not accurate in an absolute sense should work for all applications
with the exception of certain recirculating fuel injection systems (Bosch as
an example). I think that any other measurable signal like vacuum or rpm
has too much non-linearity to be useful. You also need actual ground speed
and boat speed through the water. Of course, the other solution is to turn
the motor off and raise the sail... (nautical miles per gallon goes almost
to infinity)
Chris
Original Message
From: Sadler Porter [noparse]/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=gYeZDupXvKnynjAw2s4OalwChP8NecPjk8OYSWRwVELGRjz5RcOGDexiD8wPAW2lUrQIE-0qqBnEA-QMeLxBN0M]porter.sadler@s...[/url
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 10:58 AM
To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Automotive/Marine applications
All the fuel consumption gauges I've seen are based on relative values.
There is no way to accurately track distance vs. fuel consumption over time
because of the number of variables involved (slope, drag, engine efficiency,
yadda yadda. I really see two parts on most systems.
Part one is the snap shot -"how much fuel am I using right this instant".
Part two is the prediction portion which averages total consumption vs.
total distance. The further you go the better the average. So the GPS vs.
fuel consumption. Not an exact science since future conditions may change
(good or bad). Just a relative indicator based on past performance of what
you might expect. If someone is trying use this information to squeeze the
last gallon out before landing, docking or finding a gas station, I don't
want to ride with them.
As with all design based project "What is it your really trying to solve or
find out"
Original Message
From: Jonathan Peakall [noparse]/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=fF6TFjeEBk3CZue1hZRdtPTrO9B3sfAJ8TNiYiGQkb_sL_g49a-o1FhneATC0kQi_BAErKF8P-S-Ovnhb6dF]jpeakall@m...[/url
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 4:51 PM
To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Automotive/Marine applications
Well, you could use the GPS to do the fuel economy indicator, but you are
right that it adds a large degree of complexity. It would be cool though,
and as most boats have a GPS these days, if you went through the hassle of
figuring it all out (a project I have on the back burner, I have a Motorola
Oncore unit that I plan to mess with one of these days) it could be useful
for a lot of stuff.
Any way you do it, the operator is always going to be required to make the
"final" calculation.
Jonathan
Original Message
From: "Don Denhardt" <dondenhardt@y...>
To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Automotive/Marine applications
> You could. It was just that my initial suggestion was for a device to
> enable the operator to set his controls for best fuel economy.
>
> This would be best done measuring fuel consumption vs. relative motion.
>
> If you measure fuel consumption vs. true distance the most economical
> control settings will be giving different readings all the time
> depending on currents.
>
> Also interfacing with a GPS would seem to add a lot more complexity to
> an otherwise simple project.
>
> Jonathan Peakall wrote:
> >
> > What about GPS interface? Then at least you could get actual over the
> > bottom distance measurements, and figure out your *current* mileage, and
use
> > it to predict fuel consumptions as long as conditions remained the same.
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> >
Original Message
> > From: "Don Denhardt" <dondenhardt@y...>
> > To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 7:41 PM
> > Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Automotive/Marine applications
> >
> > > Actually I believe you do not need distance traveled for the purposes
of
> > > calculating fuel efficiencies.
> > >
> > > Speed over the bottom or actual distance traveled is inconsequential.
> > > It would give you flaky readings when you were fighting a current as
> > > opposed to traveling with the current.
> > >
> > > Actual or precise fuel quantity measurements may not be needed either.
> > > You would simply need some simple sensor that could accurately measure
> > > flow rates. If the output was such that if the flow rate doubled and
it
> > > resulted in a doubling of the sensors reading, it should be enough to
do
> > > the job.
> > >
> > > Stable and repeatable fuel efficiency readouts can only be had when
> > > comparing fuel consumption with relative speed or movement. How far
you
> > > go is not as important as the fuel consumption rates used in getting
> > > there. Hope this makes some sense.
> > >
> > > The readout would not need to reflect actual KPG but could simply be a
> > > figure of merit used to assist the operator in setting throttle and
trim
> > > settings for best economy. For example if I had such an imaginary
> > > system and I knew my craft would be capable of a figure of merit of
> > > 49.5, I would simply try to get in that neighborhood with control
> > > adjustments.
> > >
> > > I suspect that head or tailwind on a powerboat up on plane would have
> > > little overall impact. The vast amount of horsepower is expended in
> > > overcoming the drag through the water. Unless of course you are
fighting
> > > gale force winds head on. Under those circumstances I would think
> > > there's a tad more to be concerned about than fuel efficiencies. Fuel
> > > consumption goes to zero if you've dropped the hook and are riding it
> > > out. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
> > >
> > > The only challenge I see in this project would be to insure proper
> > > calibration of a vacuum sensor. If it used, that whatever readings
are
> > > given by the sensor, that a doubling in speed results in a doubling of
> > > vacuum sensor result.
> > >
> > > Quite possibly in the end this figure of merit may be dividable by a
> > > fudge factor to get you fairly close to KPG.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "anode505 " wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Thats a lot to muster up. If its feul injected it *could* be
> > > > easier. Measure the injection time, inlet feul pressure and return
> > > > pressure. Then to interface to the GPS to get the distance
traveled.
> > > > (can't use the knot meter since it *will* factor in the current (be
> > > > it tide or river). Now if carb'ed, thatsa differnet story. You'd
> > > > need an good flow meter. The actual flow will be rather slow and
> > > > intermitent; since the float valve will open/close. Different
> > > > loading on the boat would change the feul consumption, trim,
current,
> > > > wind, etc.
> > > >
> > > > eitherway its a lot of number crunching and pricey sensors. I
forgot
> > > > if the stamp does floating point (been on the Pic Basic Pro program
> > > > now) If not. Stop here. It won't be of much use. Esier to just
> > > > use a vac sensor (to measure engine load), RPM, and typical gal per
> > > > hour and crunch for something 'near'
> > > >
> > > > Have fun
> > > >
> > > > --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Don Denhardt <dondenhardt@y...>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > Hi Mike,
> > > > >
> > > > > Yet another application that I am sure many power boat enthusiasts
> > > > would
> > > > > clamor for would be a nautical miles per gallon indicator.
> > > > >
> > > > > A Stamp accepting input from a fuel flow sensor(s) and converted
> > > > iron
> > > > > log (or a simple vacuum sensor connected to a transom mounted
> > > > pickup)
> > > > > could easily calculate miles per gallon for a helm LED display.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you are not in a hurry you could play with throttle and trim
> > > > settings
> > > > > to boost the reading and save some dollars at the next fuel dock
> > > > stop.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ii_awesum wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi everyone, I just joined.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have a BS2 Stamp that I mucked around with some time ago and
it
> > > > was
> > > > > > loads of fun. I managed to make a home alarm with outgoing
text-
> > > > > > paging alerts, an inbound telephone/dtmf interface, and also
> > > > > > manipulate some X-10 appliances.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Have any of you made any useful Auto/Marine applications?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For my boat I can think of things like manifold heat sensors,
> > > > > > automate the (crappy) fridge thermostat, tank level sensors etc.
> > > > with
> > > > > > graphical output on the 4-line LCD display, and audio alarms as
> > > > > > required.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Any creative input is most welcome!
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > > > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the
> > > > Subject and Body of the message will be ignored.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the
Subject
> > and Body of the message will be ignored.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject
and
> > Body of the message will be ignored.
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject
and Body of the message will be ignored.
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
Body of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
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If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify
the sender and delete this e-mail message from your computer.
[noparse][[/noparse]Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
set of problems does not have a particularly easy solution, although many of
them are clearly within the capability of the Stamp.
In the aviation community, two instruments that get a lot of attention are
the fuel quantity, and the fuel flow. Using those two, and your
airspeed/groundspeed you have a reasonable chance of getting to a
destination with sufficient fuel to complete a safe landing. However, there
are two different "optimum" speeds that are used in different circumstances.
One is the speed for best range (i.e., going the furthest distance), the
other is the speed for best endurance (i.e., staying airborne for the
longest time). They are not the same speeds and to the best of my
recollection, both vary with altitude and aircraft weight (which varies with
the amount of fuel remaining...).
In the marine environment, there are similar but different issues. Where
there are currents of any magnitude, the current very quickly becomes a
factor. (image heading up river in a 5 knot boat with the current at 5
knots down the river, getting nowhere fast...)
Add to this the maritime problem of strange drag curves with planing and
displacement hulls and you quickly see that the solution you select really
depends on what you want to know.
In my view for any useful marine application involving fuel, at a minimum,
you need to be able to accurately determine the amount of fuel that you are
using at any given point in time and you need something to measure two
velocities. An in-line flow meter that can provide relative flow rates,
even if not accurate in an absolute sense should work for all applications
with the exception of certain recirculating fuel injection systems (Bosch as
an example). I think that any other measurable signal like vacuum or rpm
has too much non-linearity to be useful. You also need actual ground speed
and boat speed through the water. Of course, the other solution is to turn
the motor off and raise the sail... (nautical miles per gallon goes almost
to infinity)
Chris
Original Message
From: Sadler Porter [noparse]/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=gYeZDupXvKnynjAw2s4OalwChP8NecPjk8OYSWRwVELGRjz5RcOGDexiD8wPAW2lUrQIE-0qqBnEA-QMeLxBN0M]porter.sadler@s...[/url
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 10:58 AM
To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Automotive/Marine applications
All the fuel consumption gauges I've seen are based on relative values.
There is no way to accurately track distance vs. fuel consumption over time
because of the number of variables involved (slope, drag, engine efficiency,
yadda yadda. I really see two parts on most systems.
Part one is the snap shot -"how much fuel am I using right this instant".
Part two is the prediction portion which averages total consumption vs.
total distance. The further you go the better the average. So the GPS vs.
fuel consumption. Not an exact science since future conditions may change
(good or bad). Just a relative indicator based on past performance of what
you might expect. If someone is trying use this information to squeeze the
last gallon out before landing, docking or finding a gas station, I don't
want to ride with them.
As with all design based project "What is it your really trying to solve or
find out"
Original Message
From: Jonathan Peakall [noparse]/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=fF6TFjeEBk3CZue1hZRdtPTrO9B3sfAJ8TNiYiGQkb_sL_g49a-o1FhneATC0kQi_BAErKF8P-S-Ovnhb6dF]jpeakall@m...[/url
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 4:51 PM
To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Automotive/Marine applications
Well, you could use the GPS to do the fuel economy indicator, but you are
right that it adds a large degree of complexity. It would be cool though,
and as most boats have a GPS these days, if you went through the hassle of
figuring it all out (a project I have on the back burner, I have a Motorola
Oncore unit that I plan to mess with one of these days) it could be useful
for a lot of stuff.
Any way you do it, the operator is always going to be required to make the
"final" calculation.
Jonathan
Original Message
From: "Don Denhardt" <dondenhardt@y...>
To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Automotive/Marine applications
> You could. It was just that my initial suggestion was for a device to
> enable the operator to set his controls for best fuel economy.
>
> This would be best done measuring fuel consumption vs. relative motion.
>
> If you measure fuel consumption vs. true distance the most economical
> control settings will be giving different readings all the time
> depending on currents.
>
> Also interfacing with a GPS would seem to add a lot more complexity to
> an otherwise simple project.
>
> Jonathan Peakall wrote:
> >
> > What about GPS interface? Then at least you could get actual over the
> > bottom distance measurements, and figure out your *current* mileage, and
use
> > it to predict fuel consumptions as long as conditions remained the same.
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> >
Original Message
> > From: "Don Denhardt" <dondenhardt@y...>
> > To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 7:41 PM
> > Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Automotive/Marine applications
> >
> > > Actually I believe you do not need distance traveled for the purposes
of
> > > calculating fuel efficiencies.
> > >
> > > Speed over the bottom or actual distance traveled is inconsequential.
> > > It would give you flaky readings when you were fighting a current as
> > > opposed to traveling with the current.
> > >
> > > Actual or precise fuel quantity measurements may not be needed either.
> > > You would simply need some simple sensor that could accurately measure
> > > flow rates. If the output was such that if the flow rate doubled and
it
> > > resulted in a doubling of the sensors reading, it should be enough to
do
> > > the job.
> > >
> > > Stable and repeatable fuel efficiency readouts can only be had when
> > > comparing fuel consumption with relative speed or movement. How far
you
> > > go is not as important as the fuel consumption rates used in getting
> > > there. Hope this makes some sense.
> > >
> > > The readout would not need to reflect actual KPG but could simply be a
> > > figure of merit used to assist the operator in setting throttle and
trim
> > > settings for best economy. For example if I had such an imaginary
> > > system and I knew my craft would be capable of a figure of merit of
> > > 49.5, I would simply try to get in that neighborhood with control
> > > adjustments.
> > >
> > > I suspect that head or tailwind on a powerboat up on plane would have
> > > little overall impact. The vast amount of horsepower is expended in
> > > overcoming the drag through the water. Unless of course you are
fighting
> > > gale force winds head on. Under those circumstances I would think
> > > there's a tad more to be concerned about than fuel efficiencies. Fuel
> > > consumption goes to zero if you've dropped the hook and are riding it
> > > out. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
> > >
> > > The only challenge I see in this project would be to insure proper
> > > calibration of a vacuum sensor. If it used, that whatever readings
are
> > > given by the sensor, that a doubling in speed results in a doubling of
> > > vacuum sensor result.
> > >
> > > Quite possibly in the end this figure of merit may be dividable by a
> > > fudge factor to get you fairly close to KPG.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "anode505 " wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Thats a lot to muster up. If its feul injected it *could* be
> > > > easier. Measure the injection time, inlet feul pressure and return
> > > > pressure. Then to interface to the GPS to get the distance
traveled.
> > > > (can't use the knot meter since it *will* factor in the current (be
> > > > it tide or river). Now if carb'ed, thatsa differnet story. You'd
> > > > need an good flow meter. The actual flow will be rather slow and
> > > > intermitent; since the float valve will open/close. Different
> > > > loading on the boat would change the feul consumption, trim,
current,
> > > > wind, etc.
> > > >
> > > > eitherway its a lot of number crunching and pricey sensors. I
forgot
> > > > if the stamp does floating point (been on the Pic Basic Pro program
> > > > now) If not. Stop here. It won't be of much use. Esier to just
> > > > use a vac sensor (to measure engine load), RPM, and typical gal per
> > > > hour and crunch for something 'near'
> > > >
> > > > Have fun
> > > >
> > > > --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Don Denhardt <dondenhardt@y...>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > Hi Mike,
> > > > >
> > > > > Yet another application that I am sure many power boat enthusiasts
> > > > would
> > > > > clamor for would be a nautical miles per gallon indicator.
> > > > >
> > > > > A Stamp accepting input from a fuel flow sensor(s) and converted
> > > > iron
> > > > > log (or a simple vacuum sensor connected to a transom mounted
> > > > pickup)
> > > > > could easily calculate miles per gallon for a helm LED display.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you are not in a hurry you could play with throttle and trim
> > > > settings
> > > > > to boost the reading and save some dollars at the next fuel dock
> > > > stop.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ii_awesum wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi everyone, I just joined.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have a BS2 Stamp that I mucked around with some time ago and
it
> > > > was
> > > > > > loads of fun. I managed to make a home alarm with outgoing
text-
> > > > > > paging alerts, an inbound telephone/dtmf interface, and also
> > > > > > manipulate some X-10 appliances.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Have any of you made any useful Auto/Marine applications?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For my boat I can think of things like manifold heat sensors,
> > > > > > automate the (crappy) fridge thermostat, tank level sensors etc.
> > > > with
> > > > > > graphical output on the 4-line LCD display, and audio alarms as
> > > > > > required.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Any creative input is most welcome!
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > > > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the
> > > > Subject and Body of the message will be ignored.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the
Subject
> > and Body of the message will be ignored.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject
and
> > Body of the message will be ignored.
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject
and Body of the message will be ignored.
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
Body of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
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from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
Body of the message will be ignored.
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[noparse][[/noparse]Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
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from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
Body of the message will be ignored.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
This e-mail message may contain legally privileged and/or confidential
information. If you are not the intended recipient(s), or the employee
or agent responsible for delivery of this message to the intended
recipient(s), you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
distribution or copying of this e-mail message is strictly prohibited.
If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify
the sender and delete this e-mail message from your computer.
[noparse][[/noparse]Non-text portions of this message have been removed]