Stamp to PIC migration
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Posts: 46,084
I'm considering moving to the PIC, using the MPLAB software and the
WARP 13 as a programmer. What are the yeas and nays about this?
Anybody with horror storys with either the software or the
programmer? Many of you decided to split the ATOM because of problems.
WARP 13 as a programmer. What are the yeas and nays about this?
Anybody with horror storys with either the software or the
programmer? Many of you decided to split the ATOM because of problems.
Comments
as BS2's and BS2SX's) as well as www.melabs.com Pic Basic Pro (PBP) compiler
with PIC's. My choice of one or the other has to do with the application.
When I built a machine that basically did nothing but sequence i/o and count
parts, I used a BS2. My original version of that machine used stepper
motors, and even the BS2SX was too slow to step the motors fast enough.
Anyway, I used the BS's when speed is not an issue (they run slow), cost is
not an issue (like for a single application, where I won't be needing
numerous chips) but quicker development is appreciated because I don't need
to design a board--there are plenty of development and interface boards.
For systems where data control, speed, power, flexibility and low cost (such
as for a product where multiple units will be produced) are needed, then I
use a PIC with PBP. The speed difference is VERY noticeable. The command
library of PBP is stronger, supports more PICs (such as the versions with
a/d, h/w pwm, etc), and the ability to insert asm code directly into the
program is invaluable. (For faster code in time sensitive applications, as
well as for direct h/w access and bit twiddling.)
If I had the option to use a Flash programmed Basic Stamp compatible board
with my PBP compiler, then I'd probably do that more often. The MicroCode
Studio interface for PBP is far superior to the interfaces that Parallax
uses, and the Stamps would have NO advantage over that system, other than
the cost of entry. You'd have all of the advantages of Basic, the power of
assembly if needed, the running speed of a compiled program, the convenience
of a module with plenty of plug-in boards, plus the ability to directly port
your code to a final design with no modifications. Basically, I guess it'd
be everything that the ATOM wishes it could be, but you'd get the stability
and reliablity of PBP.
As far as support goes...Parallax was decent when I needed them. Often I
found that I had to go through a tech or two before I truly found the help I
needed, though, because I usually didn't need help on the most basic of the
FAQ's. There were several instances where the Parallax tech support couldn't
even give me the most basic specs on a couple of their products. In the end,
I didn't call them unless I was really stumped. MELabs, on the other hand,
has fewer tech support guys, but they are more capable. (I think they have
two--Charles and Jeff, the PBP author.) In addition, I purchased my setup
through Reynolds Electronics at www.rentron.com so I have his excellent
tech support available to me as well. When I got Bruce Reynolds on the phone
while I was trying to select a compiler setup, he was so helpful and gave me
such a complete descriptions of my options that I didn't even bother to shop
around--I knew he'd already earned my business.
Cliff
Original Message
From: "singlewire" <singlewire@y...>
To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2001 1:08 PM
Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Stamp to PIC migration
I'm considering moving to the PIC, using the MPLAB software and the
WARP 13 as a programmer. What are the yeas and nays about this?
Anybody with horror storys with either the software or the
programmer? Many of you decided to split the ATOM because of problems.
To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
Body of the message will be ignored.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
in the developer's tool kit. If I need to put something together quickly,
there is nothing I have found that gets me more consistent, quick results
than a Stamp. I also like the fact that Basic programming does not require
locking the door and turning off the phone. For most routine programs with
Stamps, you can pretty much ignore the architecture of the microcontroller
and write while eating a sandwich.
PICmicro's, on the other hand will get you through many more
timing-sensitive applications, will do much more in a short amount of
process time since the are not interpreting on the fly, and have that
ever-expanding set of peripherals on board many parts. You will need to be
very familiar with the architecture of the microcontroller(s) you decide to
work with. Most code for PIC's is written in C and Assembly, the experienced
programmer knowing how and when to combine both so as to achieve the needed
results in the shortest amount of time. Myke Predko recommended working in
pure Assembly first & I agree. It's much easier to learn the architecture
that way, then backing into C will not leave you short-changed. Some
old-timers still prefer writing in all Assembly language, which is more time
consuming, but considered by some to be more "pure'.
Humbug - whatever gets the job done reliably in a shorter amount of time at
a reasonable cost is for me.
You'll always need your own power supply for a PIC design, which IMHO, the
design of which is often another specialty altogether. Interrupts are nice
to have, but, again at the cost of learning how to use them. Likewise Timers
and on-board ADC.
I have read that several Basic compilers for PIC's can be used quite
effectively, and this may be a good bridge to use. In any case, learning to
use PIC's should not cause you to discount and discard Basic Stamps. You
will never get any PIC project running in the time it takes to do the same
with a Stamp. I don't believe I am the only one who often enjoys proving out
a concept on a Stamp, then migrating the design over to a PIC.
I would go for it, while staying Stamp-conscious as well, because both do
seem to have their place.
chris
>
Original Message
> From: singlewire [noparse]/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=wIKgXQhrdyfvga1f2KhMS9lZAiIG4EDP7k531NC4h9cWfDDAwuXdaYCjNMF_BLQpwpodC-lpIC1VKE9AGg]singlewire@y...[/url
> Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2001 4:08 PM
> To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Stamp to PIC migration
>
>
> I'm considering moving to the PIC, using the MPLAB software and the
> WARP 13 as a programmer. What are the yeas and nays about this?
> Anybody with horror storys with either the software or the
> programmer? Many of you decided to split the ATOM because of problems.
>
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the
> Subject and Body of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Sid
the Atmel chips a lot more now, because their prices are good for the chips.
Pics and Atmels are about equivalent so it wouldn't be much different
between them except the Atmels are still better pricewise.
For example, it's hard to put in a $60+ dollar Stamp into a digital
thermometer where a $6.00 Atmel would work (90at2323). I sort of like to
save the Stamp for experiments. Before the Stamp was a bit faster to
experiment with but I've got all the Atmel tools now (ICE, etc.) so using
them has become pretty easy nowadays. The single step trace debug is great
if your familiar with assembler (the basic compilers compile into hex and
assembler source so you can use the debugger).
I still use the stamps, but I find myself using Atmels more and more, where
before I would use the stamps for prototyping and then switch to the Atmel
later for the price break.
Now I just do it with the Atmels. There are two basic compilers and a free
basic compiler as well. Along with some assemblers and C compilers as well.
There even seems to be a Java compiler and a Pascal compiler as well (but I
forget where I read or saw about those though). Besides I really love all
those interrupts I have with the Atmels I can use.
The Stamps seem to be much more robust over the other stamp clones. I have
had temperature sensitivity problems with the other clone stamps. I haven't
hit any compiler bugs per se, but I have had the Stamp clone basic compiler
hang or lock up every now and then, forcing you to kill the process and
reload it again to continue.
The Stamps are worth the price as they have better support over the clones.
The Parallax people put a lot of effort into the Stamps to minimize the bugs
you run into.
Besides that $60.00 Stamp still makes for a really really good thermometer
though. But I'll give the Atmel chip based thermometer to my friends but not
the Stamp based one.
Here's a toast to the Parallax Stamp...
Original Message
From: singlewire [noparse]/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=LlIFWeCc79zFliaRkd2TKDM-oyW7WsD3M5GFepZsx7r9g852uCxInm-t6hXmK-KHTLuGjlUtIHjxtZMvYBg]singlewire@y...[/url
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2001 3:08 PM
To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Stamp to PIC migration
I'm considering moving to the PIC, using the MPLAB software and the
WARP 13 as a programmer. What are the yeas and nays about this?
Anybody with horror storys with either the software or the
programmer? Many of you decided to split the ATOM because of problems.
To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
Body of the message will be ignored.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
loss of hair.
My advise .Square One has some excellent books on programming pics. Copy
thier routines into your Mplab program to creat a library of short
routines,then modify them as needed.
If your haven used the Mplab yet, its a very complex program so be
prepared to spend several hours just getting to know how to use it.
Testing the program after it has been downloaded to the pic can cause you
to kill your cat.
I use the stamp as a debuger for the pic ,an in circuit emulater can be
rather expensive.
Once you figure out how to use MPlab and how to avoid creating endless
loops its not really that difficult but it does take a decent amount of
time to make even a short program.
On Sat, 22 Dec 2001 21:08:12 -0000 "singlewire" <singlewire@y...>
writes:
> I'm considering moving to the PIC, using the MPLAB software and the
> WARP 13 as a programmer. What are the yeas and nays about this?
> Anybody with horror storys with either the software or the
> programmer? Many of you decided to split the ATOM because of
> problems.
>
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the
> Subject and Body of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
you want to spend, both in the in initial purchase price and in development
costs.
If you want to mass-produce an item and development cost is not an issue, a
PIC is the best choice. Keep in mind that unless you have alot of canned PIC
code for serial I/O, counters, etc... you are going to spend alot of time
writing your own. You also have to build / buy a programmer and purchase
tools to write code and burn it to the PIC.
On the other hand, it you want to bang out a one-off project in a short time
and don't have the development funds to use a PIC, a Stamp is ideal. All the
hard stuff is done, all you do is provide the I/O devices and power and
write some simple code. The programming software and documentation is free,
and for the most part it will do what you want. There are also Stamp clones
and similar higher-level processors available, but for the most part their
documentation and / or support sucks.
As Jon can attest, I have banged out several very functional robots based on
Basic Stamps (including the hardware) in the time it took other folks to use
a PIC to provide some basic functionality to existing robot hardware. Any
problems I have had have been dealt with by Parallax in a very timely and
professional manner.
The book I am currently reading has alot of bias for the 16F84 processor,
and it looks like a neat tool, but I can't see dropping $250 for the
supporting software and hardware.
Original Message
> Well, I like the Stamps, but I wound up with a lot of Atmel stuff, so I
use
> the Atmel chips a lot more now, because their prices are good for the
chips.
> Pics and Atmels are about equivalent so it wouldn't be much different
> between them except the Atmels are still better pricewise.
> For example, it's hard to put in a $60+ dollar Stamp into a digital
> thermometer where a $6.00 Atmel would work (90at2323). I sort of like to
> save the Stamp for experiments. Before the Stamp was a bit faster to
> experiment with but I've got all the Atmel tools now (ICE, etc.) so using
> them has become pretty easy nowadays. The single step trace debug is great
> if your familiar with assembler (the basic compilers compile into hex and
> assembler source so you can use the debugger).
> I still use the stamps, but I find myself using Atmels more and more,
where
> before I would use the stamps for prototyping and then switch to the Atmel
> later for the price break.
> Now I just do it with the Atmels. There are two basic compilers and a free
> basic compiler as well. Along with some assemblers and C compilers as
well.
> There even seems to be a Java compiler and a Pascal compiler as well (but
I
> forget where I read or saw about those though). Besides I really love all
> those interrupts I have with the Atmels I can use.
>
> The Stamps seem to be much more robust over the other stamp clones. I have
> had temperature sensitivity problems with the other clone stamps. I
haven't
> hit any compiler bugs per se, but I have had the Stamp clone basic
compiler
> hang or lock up every now and then, forcing you to kill the process and
> reload it again to continue.
>
> The Stamps are worth the price as they have better support over the
clones.
> The Parallax people put a lot of effort into the Stamps to minimize the
bugs
> you run into.
> Besides that $60.00 Stamp still makes for a really really good thermometer
> though. But I'll give the Atmel chip based thermometer to my friends but
not
> the Stamp based one.
>
> Here's a toast to the Parallax Stamp...
Original Message
From: "Rodent" <daweasel@s...>
The book I am currently reading has alot of bias for the 16F84 processor,
and it looks like a neat tool, but I can't see dropping $250 for the
supporting software and hardware.
It only takes about five Stamps to cover the cost of that supporting
software and hardware you mention...after that, the PIC's are only about
$1.50. If you want a carrier board, that's about $9+, depending on the size.
If you are active with projects, it won't take long to recapture your
investment. Of course, the Stamps have a lot of accessories available.
Cliff
a while ago but just gave up on it because I didn't want to have to
spend a lot of money on a programmer and chips. I then found out
about the AVR and bought the STK500 dev board. It was $80 which as
far as I know is less than the Warp13 (which is what I originally
planend on getting), but has tons more features. It has onboard
LED's, switches, headers, etc. so everything can be tested.
I use BASCOM-AVR as my compiler. When I first got the stamp I was
stumped because I was accustomed to MS Qbasic, and the stamp was
very different. However, BASCOM is almost identical to Qbasic so I
learned it in only a few days. It's a pretty good compiler and has
a lot of nice features. You can download it for free too, but you
can only use 2k of code. The full version costs $70, which isn't
too bad.
Probably the best thing about the AVR when compared to PIC is the
price. The PIC16F84A, which I believe is one of the most popular
models, is about $5. The AT90S2313, which is a rough "equivalent"
of the PIC, is about $3. For about $2 less, you get roughly 4 times
as much speed, twice as much flash, just under twice as much memory,
a serial UART, and 2 more pins. Best of all, you can build a
programmer out of just a parallel cable and a few resistors if you
don't need a full development system.
A good website for AVR is www.avrfreaks.com . If you think AVR
looks interesting, you should check it out.
--- In basicstamps@y..., "Earl Bollinger" <earlwbollinger@a...>
wrote:
> Well, I like the Stamps, but I wound up with a lot of Atmel stuff,
so I use
> the Atmel chips a lot more now, because their prices are good for
the chips.
> Pics and Atmels are about equivalent so it wouldn't be much
different
> between them except the Atmels are still better pricewise.
> For example, it's hard to put in a $60+ dollar Stamp into a digital
> thermometer where a $6.00 Atmel would work (90at2323). I sort of
like to
> save the Stamp for experiments. Before the Stamp was a bit faster
to
> experiment with but I've got all the Atmel tools now (ICE, etc.)
so using
> them has become pretty easy nowadays. The single step trace debug
is great
> if your familiar with assembler (the basic compilers compile into
hex and
> assembler source so you can use the debugger).
> I still use the stamps, but I find myself using Atmels more and
more, where
> before I would use the stamps for prototyping and then switch to
the Atmel
> later for the price break.
> Now I just do it with the Atmels. There are two basic compilers
and a free
> basic compiler as well. Along with some assemblers and C compilers
as well.
> There even seems to be a Java compiler and a Pascal compiler as
well (but I
> forget where I read or saw about those though). Besides I really
love all
> those interrupts I have with the Atmels I can use.
>
> The Stamps seem to be much more robust over the other stamp
clones. I have
> had temperature sensitivity problems with the other clone stamps.
I haven't
> hit any compiler bugs per se, but I have had the Stamp clone basic
compiler
> hang or lock up every now and then, forcing you to kill the
process and
> reload it again to continue.
>
> The Stamps are worth the price as they have better support over
the clones.
> The Parallax people put a lot of effort into the Stamps to
minimize the bugs
> you run into.
> Besides that $60.00 Stamp still makes for a really really good
thermometer
> though. But I'll give the Atmel chip based thermometer to my
friends but not
> the Stamp based one.
>
> Here's a toast to the Parallax Stamp...
>
>
>
>
Original Message
> From: singlewire [noparse][[/noparse]mailto:singlewire@y...]
> Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2001 3:08 PM
> To: basicstamps@y...
> Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Stamp to PIC migration
>
>
> I'm considering moving to the PIC, using the MPLAB software and the
> WARP 13 as a programmer. What are the yeas and nays about this?
> Anybody with horror storys with either the software or the
> programmer? Many of you decided to split the ATOM because of
problems.
>
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@y...
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the
Subject and
> Body of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
pic's for around $2 in quantity.
On Sat, 22 Dec 2001, Earl Bollinger wrote:
> Well, I like the Stamps, but I wound up with a lot of Atmel stuff, so I use
> the Atmel chips a lot more now, because their prices are good for the chips.
> Pics and Atmels are about equivalent so it wouldn't be much different
> between them except the Atmels are still better pricewise.
> For example, it's hard to put in a $60+ dollar Stamp into a digital
> thermometer where a $6.00 Atmel would work (90at2323). I sort of like to
> save the Stamp for experiments. Before the Stamp was a bit faster to
> experiment with but I've got all the Atmel tools now (ICE, etc.) so using
> them has become pretty easy nowadays. The single step trace debug is great
> if your familiar with assembler (the basic compilers compile into hex and
> assembler source so you can use the debugger).
> I still use the stamps, but I find myself using Atmels more and more, where
> before I would use the stamps for prototyping and then switch to the Atmel
> later for the price break.
> Now I just do it with the Atmels. There are two basic compilers and a free
> basic compiler as well. Along with some assemblers and C compilers as well.
> There even seems to be a Java compiler and a Pascal compiler as well (but I
> forget where I read or saw about those though). Besides I really love all
> those interrupts I have with the Atmels I can use.
>
> The Stamps seem to be much more robust over the other stamp clones. I have
> had temperature sensitivity problems with the other clone stamps. I haven't
> hit any compiler bugs per se, but I have had the Stamp clone basic compiler
> hang or lock up every now and then, forcing you to kill the process and
> reload it again to continue.
>
> The Stamps are worth the price as they have better support over the clones.
> The Parallax people put a lot of effort into the Stamps to minimize the bugs
> you run into.
> Besides that $60.00 Stamp still makes for a really really good thermometer
> though. But I'll give the Atmel chip based thermometer to my friends but not
> the Stamp based one.
>
> Here's a toast to the Parallax Stamp...
>
>
>
>
Original Message
> From: singlewire [noparse]/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=Db72RwzQk2yzaMliZ8zLTemeFaTlaW7hRm4k7bb29eqKx8VkAXJLf4z0_aZbpPPJMBjNxEvnAz25gOIbycaV]singlewire@y...[/url
> Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2001 3:08 PM
> To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Stamp to PIC migration
>
>
> I'm considering moving to the PIC, using the MPLAB software and the
> WARP 13 as a programmer. What are the yeas and nays about this?
> Anybody with horror storys with either the software or the
> programmer? Many of you decided to split the ATOM because of problems.
>
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
> Body of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and Body
of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Sean T. Lamont, CTO / Chief NetNerd, Abstract Software, Inc. (ServNet)
Seattle - Bellingham - Vancouver - Portland - Everett - Tacoma - Bremerton
email: lamont@a... WWW: http://www.serv.net
"...There's no moral, it's just a lot of stuff that happens". - H. Simpson
$2.00 ea is larger quantities than I need, plus that model doesn't have the
oomph I usually need. I usually like 2k or flash rom or better, thus the
90at2323's and 90at8515's usually beat out the other ones.
Original Message
From: Sean T. Lamont .lost. [noparse]/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=YTFm-bxVGljrtVG-F83CLcMgmDwBegt4eNmAYYKou6DEJszOwyMgaxOCxUm5Zm-gMcuOfrikzKBLeF6wAeH9SA]lamont@a...[/url
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2001 1:28 PM
To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Stamp to PIC migration
If it's just a costwise comparison, pic's win big ; I think you can get
pic's for around $2 in quantity.
On Sat, 22 Dec 2001, Earl Bollinger wrote:
> Well, I like the Stamps, but I wound up with a lot of Atmel stuff, so I
use
> the Atmel chips a lot more now, because their prices are good for the
chips.
> Pics and Atmels are about equivalent so it wouldn't be much different
> between them except the Atmels are still better pricewise.
> For example, it's hard to put in a $60+ dollar Stamp into a digital
> thermometer where a $6.00 Atmel would work (90at2323). I sort of like to
> save the Stamp for experiments. Before the Stamp was a bit faster to
> experiment with but I've got all the Atmel tools now (ICE, etc.) so using
> them has become pretty easy nowadays. The single step trace debug is great
> if your familiar with assembler (the basic compilers compile into hex and
> assembler source so you can use the debugger).
> I still use the stamps, but I find myself using Atmels more and more,
where
> before I would use the stamps for prototyping and then switch to the Atmel
> later for the price break.
> Now I just do it with the Atmels. There are two basic compilers and a free
> basic compiler as well. Along with some assemblers and C compilers as
well.
> There even seems to be a Java compiler and a Pascal compiler as well (but
I
> forget where I read or saw about those though). Besides I really love all
> those interrupts I have with the Atmels I can use.
>
> The Stamps seem to be much more robust over the other stamp clones. I have
> had temperature sensitivity problems with the other clone stamps. I
haven't
> hit any compiler bugs per se, but I have had the Stamp clone basic
compiler
> hang or lock up every now and then, forcing you to kill the process and
> reload it again to continue.
>
> The Stamps are worth the price as they have better support over the
clones.
> The Parallax people put a lot of effort into the Stamps to minimize the
bugs
> you run into.
> Besides that $60.00 Stamp still makes for a really really good thermometer
> though. But I'll give the Atmel chip based thermometer to my friends but
not
> the Stamp based one.
>
> Here's a toast to the Parallax Stamp...
>
>
>
>
Original Message
> From: singlewire [noparse]/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=dqNZhbC5w7plcI1i3Ywszk6E-Vey42R-MlCUzGkuW5SFgkVsGCWmI2Pm-Xs4IMo8AEu2JZKZQ0davmMb]singlewire@y...[/url
> Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2001 3:08 PM
> To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Stamp to PIC migration
>
>
> I'm considering moving to the PIC, using the MPLAB software and the
> WARP 13 as a programmer. What are the yeas and nays about this?
> Anybody with horror storys with either the software or the
> programmer? Many of you decided to split the ATOM because of problems.
>
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
> Body of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
Body of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Sean T. Lamont, CTO / Chief NetNerd, Abstract Software, Inc. (ServNet)
Seattle - Bellingham - Vancouver - Portland - Everett - Tacoma - Bremerton
email: lamont@a... WWW: http://www.serv.net
"...There's no moral, it's just a lot of stuff that happens". - H. Simpson
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Original Message
From: "Earl Bollinger" <earlwbollinger@a...>
To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2001 3:10 PM
Subject: RE: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Stamp to PIC migration
> it depends on which PIC your looking at, the same with the Atmels.
> $2.00 ea is larger quantities than I need, plus that model doesn't have
the
> oomph I usually need. I usually like 2k or flash rom or better, thus the
> 90at2323's and 90at8515's usually beat out the other ones.
>
>
Original Message
> From: Sean T. Lamont .lost. [noparse]/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=5QdeVZsmpgh8x85yLIf46oSGniJgrbKn4wsrfHBdnMkrnPnmRxCzZEOxYwoXXgVNevSQkN-YI6_OCMpgsu9k]lamont@a...[/url
> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2001 1:28 PM
> To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Stamp to PIC migration
>
>
>
> If it's just a costwise comparison, pic's win big ; I think you can get
> pic's for around $2 in quantity.
>
> On Sat, 22 Dec 2001, Earl Bollinger wrote:
>
> > Well, I like the Stamps, but I wound up with a lot of Atmel stuff, so I
> use
> > the Atmel chips a lot more now, because their prices are good for the
> chips.
> > Pics and Atmels are about equivalent so it wouldn't be much different
> > between them except the Atmels are still better pricewise.
> > For example, it's hard to put in a $60+ dollar Stamp into a digital
> > thermometer where a $6.00 Atmel would work (90at2323). I sort of like to
> > save the Stamp for experiments. Before the Stamp was a bit faster to
> > experiment with but I've got all the Atmel tools now (ICE, etc.) so
using
> > them has become pretty easy nowadays. The single step trace debug is
great
> > if your familiar with assembler (the basic compilers compile into hex
and
> > assembler source so you can use the debugger).
> > I still use the stamps, but I find myself using Atmels more and more,
> where
> > before I would use the stamps for prototyping and then switch to the
Atmel
> > later for the price break.
> > Now I just do it with the Atmels. There are two basic compilers and a
free
> > basic compiler as well. Along with some assemblers and C compilers as
> well.
> > There even seems to be a Java compiler and a Pascal compiler as well
(but
> I
> > forget where I read or saw about those though). Besides I really love
all
> > those interrupts I have with the Atmels I can use.
> >
> > The Stamps seem to be much more robust over the other stamp clones. I
have
> > had temperature sensitivity problems with the other clone stamps. I
> haven't
> > hit any compiler bugs per se, but I have had the Stamp clone basic
> compiler
> > hang or lock up every now and then, forcing you to kill the process and
> > reload it again to continue.
> >
> > The Stamps are worth the price as they have better support over the
> clones.
> > The Parallax people put a lot of effort into the Stamps to minimize the
> bugs
> > you run into.
> > Besides that $60.00 Stamp still makes for a really really good
thermometer
> > though. But I'll give the Atmel chip based thermometer to my friends but
> not
> > the Stamp based one.
> >
> > Here's a toast to the Parallax Stamp...
> >
> >
> >
> >
Original Message
> > From: singlewire [noparse]/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=NyUqVVVjPgTh6BbHzi8Q_0sjdrZGaxh-yLwjjo6ThM_GET8UCCEQYr_Y5Uk4IJ6wnFWuipEAhe-ehQ]singlewire@y...[/url
> > Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2001 3:08 PM
> > To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Stamp to PIC migration
> >
> >
> > I'm considering moving to the PIC, using the MPLAB software and the
> > WARP 13 as a programmer. What are the yeas and nays about this?
> > Anybody with horror storys with either the software or the
> > programmer? Many of you decided to split the ATOM because of problems.
> >
> >
> > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject
and
> > Body of the message will be ignored.
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject
and
> Body of the message will be ignored.
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
> Sean T. Lamont, CTO / Chief NetNerd, Abstract Software, Inc. (ServNet)
> Seattle - Bellingham - Vancouver - Portland - Everett - Tacoma - Bremerton
> email: lamont@a... WWW: http://www.serv.net
> "...There's no moral, it's just a lot of stuff that happens". - H. Simpson
>
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
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>
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>
>
compiler. BASCOM, which is what I use, is based off of microsoft
Qbasic. It took me weeks to get good at PBasic, but just a few days
for BASCOM because I already knew Qbasic. I use Stamp sometimes,
but I like BASCOM a lot better because of some basic differences.
For example, you can't have a line like:
if x = 1 then y = 1
[noparse][[/noparse]code]
In stamp, it would have to be like:
if x = 1 then changey
back:
[noparse][[/noparse]code]
changey:
y = 1
goto back
I still use the stamp for testing, and for basic things. But more
complex things, like using algorithms that take a lot of conditions
are done on AVR.
--- In basicstamps@y..., "victor Faria" <victorf@g...> wrote:
> Can you use stamp instructions with atmel?????
>
Original Message
> From: "Earl Bollinger" <earlwbollinger@a...>
> To: <basicstamps@y...>
> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2001 3:10 PM
> Subject: RE: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Stamp to PIC migration
M> The book I am currently reading has alot of bias for the 16F84 processor,
M> and it looks like a neat tool, but I can't see dropping $250 for the
M> supporting software and hardware.
I must be doing something wrong then, programming the '84 for less than
US$20.... (for the hardware - the software is free).
Luke [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Original Message
> M> The book I am currently reading has alot of bias for the 16F84
processor,
> M> and it looks like a neat tool, but I can't see dropping $250 for the
> M> supporting software and hardware.
>
> I must be doing something wrong then, programming the '84 for less than
> US$20.... (for the hardware - the software is free).
If someone wants more info they can go to the www.avrfreaks.net website.
I like the interrupts on the Atmels, once you start using interrupts, it's
hard to go back to the simple polling looping methods.
There is a free Atmel Basic compiler you can find it on the
circuitcellar.com website.
Both Pics and Atmels can be programmed using cheap parallel port
programmers. They talk about how to make several different kinds of
programmers for them, the chip programmer software is free from their
respective websites. Both chip families have a lot of assemblers, compilers
and such available.
But a Atmel STK500 programmer eval board can be had for under $100 with
software, it programs most all of the different Atmel chips. The Atmel board
comes with a lot of nice features built in too. Either the Bascom or Fastcom
Basic compilers go for $99.
Original Message
From: victor Faria [noparse]/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=erXiFLTAP9XDyyv24r3h2wbIFry6o-lBKxuDK6xa35VtHtJRLKE6KS5-kjCgJeOS90zT9Au0jBmbSA]victorf@g...[/url
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2001 2:13 PM
To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Stamp to PIC migration
Can you use stamp instructions with atmel?????
Original Message
From: "Earl Bollinger" <earlwbollinger@a...>
To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2001 3:10 PM
Subject: RE: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Stamp to PIC migration
> it depends on which PIC your looking at, the same with the Atmels.
> $2.00 ea is larger quantities than I need, plus that model doesn't have
the
> oomph I usually need. I usually like 2k or flash rom or better, thus the
> 90at2323's and 90at8515's usually beat out the other ones.
>
>
Original Message
> From: Sean T. Lamont .lost. [noparse]/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=169_6ARQT4oSHPbDw54uZosrP09HAzk3jCRDiM7LVpwmaneO1yHNyhvhWa_8-vqNbaWf_9YX1Yb1P4dP3c1tcA]lamont@a...[/url
> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2001 1:28 PM
> To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Stamp to PIC migration
>
>
>
> If it's just a costwise comparison, pic's win big ; I think you can get
> pic's for around $2 in quantity.
>
> On Sat, 22 Dec 2001, Earl Bollinger wrote:
>
> > Well, I like the Stamps, but I wound up with a lot of Atmel stuff, so I
> use
> > the Atmel chips a lot more now, because their prices are good for the
> chips.
> > Pics and Atmels are about equivalent so it wouldn't be much different
> > between them except the Atmels are still better pricewise.
> > For example, it's hard to put in a $60+ dollar Stamp into a digital
> > thermometer where a $6.00 Atmel would work (90at2323). I sort of like to
> > save the Stamp for experiments. Before the Stamp was a bit faster to
> > experiment with but I've got all the Atmel tools now (ICE, etc.) so
using
> > them has become pretty easy nowadays. The single step trace debug is
great
> > if your familiar with assembler (the basic compilers compile into hex
and
> > assembler source so you can use the debugger).
> > I still use the stamps, but I find myself using Atmels more and more,
> where
> > before I would use the stamps for prototyping and then switch to the
Atmel
> > later for the price break.
> > Now I just do it with the Atmels. There are two basic compilers and a
free
> > basic compiler as well. Along with some assemblers and C compilers as
> well.
> > There even seems to be a Java compiler and a Pascal compiler as well
(but
> I
> > forget where I read or saw about those though). Besides I really love
all
> > those interrupts I have with the Atmels I can use.
> >
> > The Stamps seem to be much more robust over the other stamp clones. I
have
> > had temperature sensitivity problems with the other clone stamps. I
> haven't
> > hit any compiler bugs per se, but I have had the Stamp clone basic
> compiler
> > hang or lock up every now and then, forcing you to kill the process and
> > reload it again to continue.
> >
> > The Stamps are worth the price as they have better support over the
> clones.
> > The Parallax people put a lot of effort into the Stamps to minimize the
> bugs
> > you run into.
> > Besides that $60.00 Stamp still makes for a really really good
thermometer
> > though. But I'll give the Atmel chip based thermometer to my friends but
> not
> > the Stamp based one.
> >
> > Here's a toast to the Parallax Stamp...
> >
> >
> >
> >
Original Message
> > From: singlewire [noparse]/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=BUKmmGq3VZJatQkyQT0yC0kcl7u_bVm9kI6C_avUobDpJbr-a6gPzFQAF600UyNjnoVHg-puR0HgLqJs]singlewire@y...[/url
> > Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2001 3:08 PM
> > To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Stamp to PIC migration
> >
> >
> > I'm considering moving to the PIC, using the MPLAB software and the
> > WARP 13 as a programmer. What are the yeas and nays about this?
> > Anybody with horror storys with either the software or the
> > programmer? Many of you decided to split the ATOM because of problems.
> >
> >
> > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject
and
> > Body of the message will be ignored.
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject
and
> Body of the message will be ignored.
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
> Sean T. Lamont, CTO / Chief NetNerd, Abstract Software, Inc. (ServNet)
> Seattle - Bellingham - Vancouver - Portland - Everett - Tacoma - Bremerton
> email: lamont@a... WWW: http://www.serv.net
> "...There's no moral, it's just a lot of stuff that happens". - H. Simpson
>
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
> Body of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
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>
>
>
To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
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Learnin lots!!
A few months ago I completed a project that took some RAW direction/speed
data from a wind sensor and converted the Rectangular data to Polar and
displayed it on to a display.
I'm now looking at moving this 'program' to a PIC, if possible.
I've heard some of you guys mention how the Stamp is a great way to
prototype a project but is somewhat rigid (sequential logic) and a bit more
expensive (??..maybe not!)
Thanks
Steve
hundreds (or more) of units, you might just want to use our OEM parts.
That way there is no code conversion. Yes, more expensive than a raw
PIC -- but you don't have to buy or learn any new tools and if your code
works on your shiny Stamp module then you know it will work in our OEM
part.
While not widely known, there are lots of small companies who do small-
to medium-sized production runs using our EOM chips. I did it at my
last employer. In fact, they still produce that product.
-- Jon Williams
-- Applications Engineer, Parallax
-- Dallas Office
Original Message
From: Brady,Steven [noparse]/noparse]PYR] [noparse][[/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=US4kLeyiBcKYNMB0qQYKyEs4yHUzQ4sR6QWkv8RdlEFi2PGVxsLFszKb8Bslz6lUOBMBImXYG_RI5K2ujhfb]steven.brady2@e...[/url
Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 6:12 PM
To: 'basicstamps@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Stamp to PIC migration
Hey folks,
Learnin lots!!
A few months ago I completed a project that took some RAW
direction/speed data from a wind sensor and converted the Rectangular
data to Polar and displayed it on to a display.
I'm now looking at moving this 'program' to a PIC, if possible.
I've heard some of you guys mention how the Stamp is a great way to
prototype a project but is somewhat rigid (sequential logic) and a bit
more expensive (??..maybe not!)
Thanks
Steve
To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject
and Body of the message will be ignored.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
This message has been scanned by WebShield. Please report SPAM to
abuse@p....
and get it running on a cutsie little platform.
I still need to incorporate some Inverted Current Loop Comms
(active--providing comms for sensors).
sb
Original Message
From: Jon Williams [noparse]/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=dQL-yiFZ0jdAon8ryD6pmf_IwiB65BboN1Lq72_sUp5LUeIIhtp2LOG5jrWrG66xJ7V_fsMCqlNCxFp_qt6O]jwilliams@p...[/url
Sent: September 18, 2003 4:23 PM
To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Stamp to PIC migration
If you're looking to save a few bucks and aren't going to be building
hundreds (or more) of units, you might just want to use our OEM parts. That
way there is no code conversion. Yes, more expensive than a raw PIC -- but
you don't have to buy or learn any new tools and if your code works on your
shiny Stamp module then you know it will work in our OEM part.
While not widely known, there are lots of small companies who do small- to
medium-sized production runs using our EOM chips. I did it at my last
employer. In fact, they still produce that product.
-- Jon Williams
-- Applications Engineer, Parallax
-- Dallas Office
Original Message
From: Brady,Steven [noparse]/noparse]PYR] [noparse][[/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=Fg5i1Pgnkkkukbd85G2Og8zhhofP9VJHd9NeNR11aqQVHTRNPw_UXP9aJsnuSYiczWcLxYQw9-hVnMKFhFN_JA]steven.brady2@e...[/url
Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 6:12 PM
To: 'basicstamps@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Stamp to PIC migration
Hey folks,
Learnin lots!!
A few months ago I completed a project that took some RAW direction/speed
data from a wind sensor and converted the Rectangular data to Polar and
displayed it on to a display.
I'm now looking at moving this 'program' to a PIC, if possible.
I've heard some of you guys mention how the Stamp is a great way to
prototype a project but is somewhat rigid (sequential logic) and a bit more
expensive (??..maybe not!)
Thanks
Steve
To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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This message has been scanned by WebShield. Please report SPAM to
abuse@p....
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The migration from Stamp to PIC is not that hard if you use PICBasic
Pro from meLabs(www.melabs.com).
I have transfered a large multibank program that ran on a BS2p40 to a
PIC16F877. There were a few hurdles to get over but it wasn't that
bad. One of them was setting the registers on the PIC to configure
the onboard 10 bit A/D convertor. Another was for the hardware USART
to set up the correct baude rate. The manual for PICBasic Pro covers
these pretty good. Other issues were oscillator capacitance and not
pulling MCLR high on the PIC.
Here is the drawback. PicBasic Pro costs $237.45 from
http://www.glitchbuster.com/. You save 13 bux from meLabs website.
Plus glitchbuster has lots of PIC's and other useful IC's.
You will also need a programmer. That is another $100 to $120
depending on which one you select.
In order to do in circuit programming you will need a bootloader and
have the PIC hardware configured for in circuit programming. The
bootloader is another 25 bux.
So in total you will have to invest ~$370 to do it.
As Jon mentioned, OEM components can save you some money and board
space. I have made my own BS2p40 stamps with OEM parts for $30. This
may be the way to go for low volume stuff, unless you want to migrate
to PIC's in the future with other projects you could learn now with
this one.
I still use Stamps to do the quick and dirty stuff or to try out a
new circuit.
My homebrew EconoStamp 2p40 and development board:
http://myweb.core.com/photos/jbirnsch"at"vbe.com/BasicStamp/
replace "at" with @ to make the link work
Jason
--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "Brady,Steven [noparse][[/noparse]PYR]"
<steven.brady2@e...> wrote:
> Well, my production run might consists of 20-30 IF, big IF, I can
shrink it
> and get it running on a cutsie little platform.
>
> I still need to incorporate some Inverted Current Loop Comms
> (active--providing comms for sensors).
>
> sb
>
>
Original Message
> From: Jon Williams [noparse][[/noparse]mailto:jwilliams@p...]
> Sent: September 18, 2003 4:23 PM
> To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Stamp to PIC migration
>
>
> If you're looking to save a few bucks and aren't going to be
building
> hundreds (or more) of units, you might just want to use our OEM
parts. That
> way there is no code conversion. Yes, more expensive than a raw
PIC -- but
> you don't have to buy or learn any new tools and if your code works
on your
> shiny Stamp module then you know it will work in our OEM part.
>
> While not widely known, there are lots of small companies who do
small- to
> medium-sized production runs using our EOM chips. I did it at my
last
> employer. In fact, they still produce that product.
>
> -- Jon Williams
> -- Applications Engineer, Parallax
> -- Dallas Office
>
>
>
Original Message
> From: Brady,Steven [noparse][[/noparse]PYR] [noparse][[/noparse]mailto:steven.brady2@e...]
> Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 6:12 PM
> To: 'basicstamps@yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Stamp to PIC migration
>
>
> Hey folks,
>
> Learnin lots!!
>
> A few months ago I completed a project that took some RAW
direction/speed
> data from a wind sensor and converted the Rectangular data to Polar
and
> displayed it on to a display.
>
> I'm now looking at moving this 'program' to a PIC, if possible.
>
> I've heard some of you guys mention how the Stamp is a great way to
> prototype a project but is somewhat rigid (sequential logic) and a
bit more
> expensive (??..maybe not!)
>
> Thanks
> Steve
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the
Subject and
> Body of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> This message has been scanned by WebShield. Please report SPAM to
> abuse@p...
>
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the
Subject and
> Body of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> Steve,
>
> The migration from Stamp to PIC is not that hard if you use
PICBasic
> Pro from meLabs(www.melabs.com).
>
> I have transfered a large multibank program that ran on a BS2p40 to
a
> PIC16F877. There were a few hurdles to get over but it wasn't that
> bad. One of them was setting the registers on the PIC to configure
> the onboard 10 bit A/D convertor. Another was for the hardware
USART
> to set up the correct baude rate. The manual for PICBasic Pro
covers
> these pretty good. Other issues were oscillator capacitance and not
> pulling MCLR high on the PIC.
>
> Here is the drawback. PicBasic Pro costs $237.45 from
> http://www.glitchbuster.com/. You save 13 bux from meLabs website.
> Plus glitchbuster has lots of PIC's and other useful IC's.
>
> You will also need a programmer. That is another $100 to $120
> depending on which one you select.
>
> In order to do in circuit programming you will need a bootloader
and
> have the PIC hardware configured for in circuit programming. The
> bootloader is another 25 bux.
>
> So in total you will have to invest ~$370 to do it.
>
> As Jon mentioned, OEM components can save you some money and board
> space. I have made my own BS2p40 stamps with OEM parts for $30.
This
> may be the way to go for low volume stuff, unless you want to
migrate
> to PIC's in the future with other projects you could learn now with
> this one.
Here is the conumdrum.
if you spend the $370 or so, you get the ability to do mass boards
cheaper.
but you need to program in BOTH PBasic AND PIC Basic if you want to
develop on a Stamp.
There is a break even point. and then above that is the time
invested break even point.
Dave
Personally I think that for your small quantity sticking with the stamp
makes sense. The reason is related to your time to learn something
new. But I did want to give you a different slant on the startup cost
question.
Writing assembly code is not that difficult, there's only 35
instructions in the mid range PICs.
The assembler, simulator is free from Microchip.
You no longer need a $200 Picstart+, but can use the new $39 Pickit USB
programmer with the 8 and 14 pin parts.
The 8 and 16 pin parts are about $2 each in small qty.
If you use FLASH parts you do not need a UV eraser, highly recommended
for the ease of installing a new program.
Note the latest round of PICs also support, in circuit programming, boot
loading and in circuit debugging, but for the latter you need the ICE2
which is a couple of hundred.
Also the latest round of parts have more I/O pins, typically # I/O pins
= total # pins -2. i.e. all the pins except the power supply can be
used as I/O, so the 8 pin part can have up to 6 I/0 pins. If you use an
external unit oscillator then you have 5 I/O pins or if you use an
external crystal then you have 4 I/O pins. Note the using the external
oscillator does not take up 2 pins like it used to.
Have Fun,
Brooke Clarke, N6GCE
http://www.PRC68.com
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:12:21 -0700
From: "Brady,Steven [noparse][[/noparse]PYR]" <steven.brady2@e...>
Subject: Stamp to PIC migration
Hey folks,
Learnin lots!!
A few months ago I completed a project that took some RAW direction/speed
data from a wind sensor and converted the Rectangular data to Polar and
displayed it on to a display.
I'm now looking at moving this 'program' to a PIC, if possible.
I've heard some of you guys mention how the Stamp is a great way to
prototype a project but is somewhat rigid (sequential logic) and a bit more
expensive (??..maybe not!)
Thanks
Steve
just to start the production run.
I'm going to show my boss the Stamp kit and if he buys in to it then I
"think" I could get him to cover the rest of the start up gear.
I COULD use Stamps but I'd rather use, listen for the boo's, a cheap little
IC to take care of it (PIC) rather than a STAMP.
It's like sending flight trainers (Cessna's and such) to war.
Or maybe more like using a real F18 as a trainer for complete
noobies....teach them to fly on the simple stuff....
Ok, I can't think of a good analogy...but I'd just hate to waste something
so versatile/useful.
sb
Original Message
From: Dave Mucha [noparse]/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=Xr-GQ4OYY5U_7LiVVnYUz1k0SdO8ZiMcSwZla-hY2aOESQhB80E77SHpLVjPg3ZorJ1PYST1iDA]davemucha@j...[/url
Sent: September 19, 2003 6:21 AM
To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Stamp to PIC migration
--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "jbirnsch" <jbirnsch@v...> wrote:
> Steve,
>
> The migration from Stamp to PIC is not that hard if you use
PICBasic
> Pro from meLabs(www.melabs.com).
>
> I have transfered a large multibank program that ran on a BS2p40 to
a
> PIC16F877. There were a few hurdles to get over but it wasn't that
> bad. One of them was setting the registers on the PIC to configure
> the onboard 10 bit A/D convertor. Another was for the hardware
USART
> to set up the correct baude rate. The manual for PICBasic Pro
covers
> these pretty good. Other issues were oscillator capacitance and not
> pulling MCLR high on the PIC.
>
> Here is the drawback. PicBasic Pro costs $237.45 from
> http://www.glitchbuster.com/. You save 13 bux from meLabs website.
> Plus glitchbuster has lots of PIC's and other useful IC's.
>
> You will also need a programmer. That is another $100 to $120
> depending on which one you select.
>
> In order to do in circuit programming you will need a bootloader
and
> have the PIC hardware configured for in circuit programming. The
> bootloader is another 25 bux.
>
> So in total you will have to invest ~$370 to do it.
>
> As Jon mentioned, OEM components can save you some money and board
> space. I have made my own BS2p40 stamps with OEM parts for $30.
This
> may be the way to go for low volume stuff, unless you want to
migrate
> to PIC's in the future with other projects you could learn now with
> this one.
Here is the conumdrum.
if you spend the $370 or so, you get the ability to do mass boards
cheaper.
but you need to program in BOTH PBasic AND PIC Basic if you want to
develop on a Stamp.
There is a break even point. and then above that is the time
invested break even point.
Dave
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There are several free C compilers for PICs. Most, if not all, of them
are 'cripple-ware' of the commercial version, but still quite capable.
I would certainly check out
http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist/begin.htm. This is a link to a
bunch of beginner stuff.
http://www.voti.nl/swp/index.html is another good starting point.
As far as a programmer, I would certainly consider Microchips ICD 2. It
is a programmer and also a in-circuit debugger for (some) of the flash
parts that. It allows one to set breakpoints, single-step, set watches
and other cool stuff. (no more debug statment sprinkling!)
amg
On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 05:05:48 -0000 "jbirnsch" <jbirnsch@v...> writes:
> Steve,
>
> The migration from Stamp to PIC is not that hard if you use PICBasic
> Pro from meLabs(www.melabs.com).
>
> I have transfered a large multibank program that ran on a BS2p40 to
> a PIC16F877. There were a few hurdles to get over but it wasn't that
> bad. One of them was setting the registers on the PIC to configure
> the onboard 10 bit A/D convertor. Another was for the hardware USART
> to set up the correct baude rate. The manual for PICBasic Pro covers
> these pretty good. Other issues were oscillator capacitance and not
> pulling MCLR high on the PIC.
>
> Here is the drawback. PicBasic Pro costs $237.45 from
> http://www.glitchbuster.com/. You save 13 bux from meLabs website.
> Plus glitchbuster has lots of PIC's and other useful IC's.
> You will also need a programmer. That is another $100 to $120
> depending on which one you select.
>
> In order to do in circuit programming you will need a bootloader and
> have the PIC hardware configured for in circuit programming. The
> bootloader is another 25 bux.
>
> So in total you will have to invest ~$370 to do it.
>
> As Jon mentioned, OEM components can save you some money and board
> space. I have made my own BS2p40 stamps with OEM parts for $30. This
>
> may be the way to go for low volume stuff, unless you want to
> migrate to PIC's in the future with other projects you could learn now
with
> this one.
>
> I still use Stamps to do the quick and dirty stuff or to try out a
> new circuit.
>
> My homebrew EconoStamp 2p40 and development board:
>
> http://myweb.core.com/photos/jbirnsch"at"vbe.com/BasicStamp/
>
> replace "at" with @ to make the link work
>
> Jason
[noparse][[/noparse]Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> It's like sending flight trainers (Cessna's and such) to war.
> Or maybe more like using a real F18 as a trainer for complete
> noobies....teach them to fly on the simple stuff....
> Ok, I can't think of a good analogy...but I'd just hate to waste something
> so versatile/useful.
In many cases it really depends on how many of the production items you
are going to make, your target customer, and price points.
The Basic Stamp OEM modules and pricing are, IMO, very cost competitive
with a PIC for project with small/sporadic volume runs. In one regard
an OEM module is 10 times the cost of a PIC, but in another regard, its
only $25 more than a PIC, and many 1-off custom products can easily
support a $25 hit to the BOM.
Keeping the Stamp in your finished product makes prototyping and
troubleshooting that much easier. It also reduces the amount of
programmers/software you need to maintain in order to actually
create/program your product.
The stamps are great for getting up and running quick and tweaking on
the fly. I would choose one for low volume high profit jobs. Parallax
made it easy to program, all the tools are there and the documentation
is bullet proof.
The PIC's are great for fast, dedicated jobs that are high volume and
low profit, with little or no "in field" program changes. There is
tons of docs to sift through (just look at the 600+ page mid-range
reference manual, eeks) and twenty ways to do one thing. You better
like puzzles and have a lot of hair to pull out if you go this route as
there are many variables to debug when you have a problem.
You can get going with PIC's for as little as a $20 serial programmer
and the free MPLab assembler program.
Regards, John.
--- amg amg <controlsdude2000@j...> wrote:
> Another option:
>
> There are several free C compilers for PICs. Most, if not all, of
> them
> are 'cripple-ware' of the commercial version, but still quite
> capable.
>
> I would certainly check out
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist/begin.htm. This is a link to
> a
> bunch of beginner stuff.
>
> http://www.voti.nl/swp/index.html is another good starting point.
>
> As far as a programmer, I would certainly consider Microchips ICD 2.
> It
> is a programmer and also a in-circuit debugger for (some) of the
> flash
> parts that. It allows one to set breakpoints, single-step, set
> watches
> and other cool stuff. (no more debug statment sprinkling!)
>
> amg
>
>
> On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 05:05:48 -0000 "jbirnsch" <jbirnsch@v...>
> writes:
> > Steve,
> >
> > The migration from Stamp to PIC is not that hard if you use
> PICBasic
> > Pro from meLabs(www.melabs.com).
> >
> > I have transfered a large multibank program that ran on a BS2p40 to
>
> > a PIC16F877. There were a few hurdles to get over but it wasn't
> that
> > bad. One of them was setting the registers on the PIC to configure
> > the onboard 10 bit A/D convertor. Another was for the hardware
> USART
> > to set up the correct baude rate. The manual for PICBasic Pro
> covers
> > these pretty good. Other issues were oscillator capacitance and not
>
> > pulling MCLR high on the PIC.
> >
> > Here is the drawback. PicBasic Pro costs $237.45 from
> > http://www.glitchbuster.com/. You save 13 bux from meLabs website.
> > Plus glitchbuster has lots of PIC's and other useful IC's.
> > You will also need a programmer. That is another $100 to $120
> > depending on which one you select.
> >
> > In order to do in circuit programming you will need a bootloader
> and
> > have the PIC hardware configured for in circuit programming. The
> > bootloader is another 25 bux.
> >
> > So in total you will have to invest ~$370 to do it.
> >
> > As Jon mentioned, OEM components can save you some money and board
> > space. I have made my own BS2p40 stamps with OEM parts for $30.
> This
> >
> > may be the way to go for low volume stuff, unless you want to
> > migrate to PIC's in the future with other projects you could learn
> now
> with
> > this one.
> >
> > I still use Stamps to do the quick and dirty stuff or to try out a
> > new circuit.
> >
> > My homebrew EconoStamp 2p40 and development board:
> >
> > http://myweb.core.com/photos/jbirnsch"at"vbe.com/BasicStamp/
> >
> > replace "at" with @ to make the link work
> >
> > Jason
>
> [noparse][[/noparse]Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject
> and Body of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
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Like putting a tool chest of tools in every car you make. When all the customer
needs is a spare tire, tire iron and a jack.
They don't even give you a good jack with a new car!!!
I think the stamp itself is a PIC with some very cool add-ons...
Tim
>>> steven.brady2@e... 09/19/03 10:37AM >>>
Well, I did assume quite the start up cost in getting said hardware/software
just to start the production run.
I'm going to show my boss the Stamp kit and if he buys in to it then I
"think" I could get him to cover the rest of the start up gear.
I COULD use Stamps but I'd rather use, listen for the boo's, a cheap little
IC to take care of it (PIC) rather than a STAMP.
It's like sending flight trainers (Cessna's and such) to war.
Or maybe more like using a real F18 as a trainer for complete
noobies....teach them to fly on the simple stuff....
Ok, I can't think of a good analogy...but I'd just hate to waste something
so versatile/useful.
sb
Original Message
From: Dave Mucha [noparse]/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=Sb2tvNvMcZOdP1j6SLLaJ2GqVQNYF_Miyt061vYZDzFLgW7bQR5pcpUNuyOK-TVJn172bE3pYinFeg]davemucha@j...[/url
Sent: September 19, 2003 6:21 AM
To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Stamp to PIC migration
--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "jbirnsch" <jbirnsch@v...> wrote:
> Steve,
>
> The migration from Stamp to PIC is not that hard if you use
PICBasic
> Pro from meLabs(www.melabs.com).
>
> I have transfered a large multibank program that ran on a BS2p40 to
a
> PIC16F877. There were a few hurdles to get over but it wasn't that
> bad. One of them was setting the registers on the PIC to configure
> the onboard 10 bit A/D convertor. Another was for the hardware
USART
> to set up the correct baude rate. The manual for PICBasic Pro
covers
> these pretty good. Other issues were oscillator capacitance and not
> pulling MCLR high on the PIC.
>
> Here is the drawback. PicBasic Pro costs $237.45 from
> http://www.glitchbuster.com/. You save 13 bux from meLabs website.
> Plus glitchbuster has lots of PIC's and other useful IC's.
>
> You will also need a programmer. That is another $100 to $120
> depending on which one you select.
>
> In order to do in circuit programming you will need a bootloader
and
> have the PIC hardware configured for in circuit programming. The
> bootloader is another 25 bux.
>
> So in total you will have to invest ~$370 to do it.
>
> As Jon mentioned, OEM components can save you some money and board
> space. I have made my own BS2p40 stamps with OEM parts for $30.
This
> may be the way to go for low volume stuff, unless you want to
migrate
> to PIC's in the future with other projects you could learn now with
> this one.
Here is the conumdrum.
if you spend the $370 or so, you get the ability to do mass boards
cheaper.
but you need to program in BOTH PBasic AND PIC Basic if you want to
develop on a Stamp.
There is a break even point. and then above that is the time
invested break even point.
Dave
To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
Body of the message will be ignored.
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To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
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> instructions in the mid range PICs.
Learning assembly language for the PIC is indeed easy, BUT, trying to emulate
the BASIC Stamps commands & functionality in assembly can be another story.
SERIN 0, N2400, [noparse][[/noparse]"A"] ' Simple enough.
Now do something comparable in assembly:
http://www.rentron.com/PicBasic/serin.htm
Many years ago Scott Edwards produced a book titled "The PIC Source Book"
showing
how to write Stamp equivalent functions or commands for the PIC in assembly
language.
Even with only 35 instructions to learn, it still takes a lot of work (and time)
to do something
in assembly comparable to even the simplest BASIC Stamp command.
Hang onto your Stamps. If you want to get into programming the PIC, then grab
one of the
BASIC compilers. You already have experience with Pbasic, and probably tons of
code
you can port directly from your Stamp to a PIC. If you just want less expensive
Stamps,
I would definitely go the Parallax Stamp OEM ICs. They provide all the
schematics you'll
need to roll your own Stamp clones.
Having both the Stamp & BASIC compilers is really the best of both worlds, but
you'll still
probably pull out that Stamp when you're in a hurry to get something up & going
or roll-out
a proof-of-concept design quickly.
A good carpenter could probably build an entire home with nothing but a
screwdriver & a
hammer, but I doubt he would want to with tools available to make the job much
easier
& faster....;o]
Regards,
-Bruce
tech@r...
http://www.rentron.com
SX key, programming software free from parallax.
Assembly language programming, Not nearly as easy at the stamp
Lightning fast 20 nano seconds / clock cycle, most instructions 1 or 2 clock
cycles.
$10 for IC & resonator
[noparse][[/noparse]Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
it's such a good one, so why not. I started with the PIC about a year ago
and have been pretty happy generally, but I've lost a lot of sleep
debugging! Just recently I returned to the stamp list to realize what cool
and easy functionality I missed out on before, like the Trig functions.
These would likely be a pain in Assembly. It also seems like the knowledge
base has grown immensely. I was looking for accelerometers and gyroscopes
for a robot and found information readily available here after searching
elsewhere for a long time. It seems that due to the ease of use of the
stamp, so many more projects can be quickly completed. I now use them to
debug many circuits, because I know the code on a Stamp is not going to be
the source of an error. A production run is a different matter of course and
you're thinking about cost. Pics are great for that. Another thing I like
about Pics/Assembly is that they demonstrate the relationship between code
and hardware, computing and electronics very well. A topic which can be
mystifying.
My 2¢
Nick
I am trying to make the migration myself.
The PIC does offer some advantages such as true interrupt, and
internal timers, hardware PWM, hardware UART etc.
However, the learning curve is more steep.
With the BS2, I was able to quickly move from flashing LEDs to I2C
communication in about 1 month.
For PIC, well, I've been studying PIC for almost 3 months now, and
just now I'm starting to put together simple programs using
interrupt, CCP, etc. Yes, these are more complicated concepts, but
at this moment, I won't even think about doing a whole project in
assembly.
I plan to keep my Stamp around for quick proof of concept work. And
use PIC with BASIC compiler to realize final product.
Truth is, Stamps are great for learning and quick prototyping.
--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "Tech" <tech@r...> wrote:
>
> > Writing assembly code is not that difficult, there's only 35
> > instructions in the mid range PICs.
>
> Learning assembly language for the PIC is indeed easy, BUT, trying
to emulate
> the BASIC Stamps commands & functionality in assembly can be
another story.
>
> SERIN 0, N2400, [noparse][[/noparse]"A"] ' Simple enough.
>
> Now do something comparable in assembly:
http://www.rentron.com/PicBasic/serin.htm
>
> Many years ago Scott Edwards produced a book titled "The PIC Source
Book" showing
> how to write Stamp equivalent functions or commands for the PIC in
assembly language.
>
> Even with only 35 instructions to learn, it still takes a lot of
work (and time) to do something
> in assembly comparable to even the simplest BASIC Stamp command.
>
> Hang onto your Stamps. If you want to get into programming the PIC,
then grab one of the
> BASIC compilers. You already have experience with Pbasic, and
probably tons of code
> you can port directly from your Stamp to a PIC. If you just want
less expensive Stamps,
> I would definitely go the Parallax Stamp OEM ICs. They provide all
the schematics you'll
> need to roll your own Stamp clones.
>
> Having both the Stamp & BASIC compilers is really the best of both
worlds, but you'll still
> probably pull out that Stamp when you're in a hurry to get
something up & going or roll-out
> a proof-of-concept design quickly.
>
> A good carpenter could probably build an entire home with nothing
but a screwdriver & a
> hammer, but I doubt he would want to with tools available to make
the job much easier
> & faster....;o]
>
>
> Regards,
>
> -Bruce
> tech@r...
> http://www.rentron.com