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Relay Ratings — Parallax Forums

Relay Ratings

ArchiverArchiver Posts: 46,084
edited 2001-08-13 21:22 in General Discussion
Hello:

My current project is a relay driver and although this question isn't
strictly a stamp based one I was hoping somebody could help me out a
bit. I'm going to use the relays to control a 120 VAC circuit and I
have some great 30 AMP Automotive relays but they were originally
designed for 12 volts. If I put 120 Vac through the contacts will
they have an okay life span.

Thank you
Aaron Nielsen

Comments

  • ArchiverArchiver Posts: 46,084
    edited 2001-08-10 23:37
    I would expect the contacts of a 12 volt relay to operate at 120 VAC
    with little or no problem. The coil must still be run at 12 volts and
    this will have to be DC not AC. I must caution you that if a problem
    occurs with a fire or some unforeseen because of your design, there may
    be repercussions down the road. 12 volt relay's were designed to be
    safe at 12 Volts. 120 VAC relays are designed accordingly. Good luck
    with your project and if you decide you need some higher power relays,
    they are called contactors or motor starters and can be found in
    Industrial equipment, sometimes real cheap..


    Kind Regards,

    Leroy

    Aaron wrote:
    >
    > Hello:
    >
    > My current project is a relay driver and although this question isn't
    > strictly a stamp based one I was hoping somebody could help me out a
    > bit. I'm going to use the relays to control a 120 VAC circuit and I
    > have some great 30 AMP Automotive relays but they were originally
    > designed for 12 volts. If I put 120 Vac through the contacts will
    > they have an okay life span.
    >
    > Thank you
    > Aaron Nielsen
    >
    > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
    > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
    > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and Body
    of the message will be ignored.
    >
    >
    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

    --

    *******************************************************
    * Leroy Hall *
    * 317 Cherokee Drive *
    * Loveland, Ohio - USA 45140-2404 *
    *******************************************************
    * Phone: (513) 697-7539 *
    * Cell : (513) 300-8632 *
    * Email: leroy@f... *
    * Home page URL: http://home.fuse.net/leroy/ *
    * Resume URL: http://home.fuse.net/leroy/resume.htm *
    *******************************************************
    * Leroy Hall *
    * 317 Cherokee Drive *
    * Loveland, Ohio - USA 45140-2404 *
    *******************************************************
  • ArchiverArchiver Posts: 46,084
    edited 2001-08-11 03:42
    Typically on a commercial relay, they will list the coil voltage and current
    or resistance, *and* the current ratings for the contacts at various
    voltages. There are relays with a12-volt coil that are designed to switch
    120 volts AC, but the automotive relays are probably not the ones designed
    for that.

    Original Message

    > My current project is a relay driver and although this question isn't
    > strictly a stamp based one I was hoping somebody could help me out a
    > bit. I'm going to use the relays to control a 120 VAC circuit and I
    > have some great 30 AMP Automotive relays but they were originally
    > designed for 12 volts. If I put 120 Vac through the contacts will
    > they have an okay life span.
  • ArchiverArchiver Posts: 46,084
    edited 2001-08-11 05:38
    It might work but I would be concerned about the safety of it. If the
    relay is designed for 12 volts then it probably has insulation,
    creeepage and clearance distances designed for 12 volts and that could
    result in problems. Probably would be a better idea to spend $5 and get
    a relay that won't risk burning things up. Also with the increased
    voltage across the contacts there is the possibility that arcing could
    occur with the relay in the open position. This potential for arcing
    would vary with humidity and temperature.

    On Fri, 10 Aug 2001 20:22:53 -0000 "Aaron" <snazzyguy2@y...> writes:
    > Hello:
    >
    > My current project is a relay driver and although this question
    > isn't
    > strictly a stamp based one I was hoping somebody could help me out a
    >
    > bit. I'm going to use the relays to control a 120 VAC circuit and I
    > have some great 30 AMP Automotive relays but they were originally
    > designed for 12 volts. If I put 120 Vac through the contacts will
    > they have an okay life span.
    >
    > Thank you
    > Aaron Nielsen
    >
    >
    > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
    > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
    > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the
    > Subject and Body of the message will be ignored.
    >
    >
    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
    > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
    >
    >

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  • ArchiverArchiver Posts: 46,084
    edited 2001-08-11 16:35
    Like someone else mentioned before, you'll still require 12V to
    energize the relay coil, which I'm sure you probably realize. I'd say
    you'd be okay as long you don't pass any more than 2A or so through
    the contacts at 120VAC. I'm not 100% for sure on any of this but if
    it were me I'd give it a shot for the hell of it.

    Maybe some other people on this list can help me (us) out here on my
    2A calculation. 120VAC is somewhere around 170 volts peak I belive
    (120 * sqrt2?), 170 volts is roughly 14.2 times higher than 12V,
    30A/14.2 = 2A. Does this even apply? I don't know. Maybe someone
    can confirm or deny this logic and give some better insight.

    On the other hand.....

    You may wish to consider using an optoisolated module like the ones
    sold by Opto22 (http://www.opto22.com, take a look at their G1 or G4
    models). These devices will interface to your stamp nicely since they
    are controlled by a low current 5V source. Quick, easy, fairly cheap.

    If you use your automotive relays you'll have to somehow step up your
    stamp output from 5V to 12V at a much higher current output. This
    will obviously require more circuitry, headaches, etc. I always
    prefer the easier and less complex method that's easy to work on/fix
    later as opposed to saving a few bucks.


    --- In basicstamps@y..., "Aaron" <snazzyguy2@y...> wrote:
    > Hello:
    >
    > My current project is a relay driver and although this question
    isn't
    > strictly a stamp based one I was hoping somebody could help me out a
    > bit. I'm going to use the relays to control a 120 VAC circuit and I
    > have some great 30 AMP Automotive relays but they were originally
    > designed for 12 volts. If I put 120 Vac through the contacts will
    > they have an okay life span.
    >
    > Thank you
    > Aaron Nielsen
  • ArchiverArchiver Posts: 46,084
    edited 2001-08-11 17:42
    right, and wrong.. amps is amps. so if you have a relay (or cable) that
    can handle 10A then it'll handle 10A at any voltage, so long as the
    insulation is enough for said voltage.

    I've used automotive relays before without any trouble, but never for
    permanent installations, so I can't be sure of their longevity.

    Jason

    tbanez@h... wrote:
    >
    > Like someone else mentioned before, you'll still require 12V to
    > energize the relay coil, which I'm sure you probably realize. I'd say
    > you'd be okay as long you don't pass any more than 2A or so through
    > the contacts at 120VAC. I'm not 100% for sure on any of this but if
    > it were me I'd give it a shot for the hell of it.
    >
    > Maybe some other people on this list can help me (us) out here on my
    > 2A calculation. 120VAC is somewhere around 170 volts peak I belive
    > (120 * sqrt2?), 170 volts is roughly 14.2 times higher than 12V,
    > 30A/14.2 = 2A. Does this even apply? I don't know. Maybe someone
    > can confirm or deny this logic and give some better insight.
    >
    > On the other hand.....
    >
    > You may wish to consider using an optoisolated module like the ones
    > sold by Opto22 (http://www.opto22.com, take a look at their G1 or G4
    > models). These devices will interface to your stamp nicely since they
    > are controlled by a low current 5V source. Quick, easy, fairly cheap.
    >
    > If you use your automotive relays you'll have to somehow step up your
    > stamp output from 5V to 12V at a much higher current output. This
    > will obviously require more circuitry, headaches, etc. I always
    > prefer the easier and less complex method that's easy to work on/fix
    > later as opposed to saving a few bucks.
    >
    > --- In basicstamps@y..., "Aaron" <snazzyguy2@y...> wrote:
    > > Hello:
    > >
    > > My current project is a relay driver and although this question
    > isn't
    > > strictly a stamp based one I was hoping somebody could help me out a
    > > bit. I'm going to use the relays to control a 120 VAC circuit and I
    > > have some great 30 AMP Automotive relays but they were originally
    > > designed for 12 volts. If I put 120 Vac through the contacts will
    > > they have an okay life span.
    > >
    > > Thank you
    > > Aaron Nielsen
    >
    > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
    > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
    > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and Body
    of the message will be ignored.
    >
    >
    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

    --
    _______________________________________________
    Jason Lavoie
    jlavoie@e...
    jlavoie@o...
    ICQ#:10604243
    Electrical Engineering III, Carleton University
  • ArchiverArchiver Posts: 46,084
    edited 2001-08-11 19:39
    It's Hard to apply ohm's law to contacts because when the close they are
    usually measured in tenths (.01) of an ohm or less. What's more
    important here is the speed at which they open when commanded to open
    and the speed at which they close. Also, it's important as to the
    distance the contacts are open to. I would expect a contact rated for
    120VAC might be several thousands wider when open to prevent arcing when
    controlling an inductive load. So there is a little more to what
    happening here than just ohm's lam.


    Kind regards,

    Leroy

    tbanez@h... wrote:
    >
    > Like someone else mentioned before, you'll still require 12V to
    > energize the relay coil, which I'm sure you probably realize. I'd say
    > you'd be okay as long you don't pass any more than 2A or so through
    > the contacts at 120VAC. I'm not 100% for sure on any of this but if
    > it were me I'd give it a shot for the hell of it.
    >
    > Maybe some other people on this list can help me (us) out here on my
    > 2A calculation. 120VAC is somewhere around 170 volts peak I belive
    > (120 * sqrt2?), 170 volts is roughly 14.2 times higher than 12V,
    > 30A/14.2 = 2A. Does this even apply? I don't know. Maybe someone
    > can confirm or deny this logic and give some better insight.
    >
  • ArchiverArchiver Posts: 46,084
    edited 2001-08-12 00:40
    > Maybe some other people on this list can help me (us) out here on my
    > 2A calculation. 120VAC is somewhere around 170 volts peak I belive
    > (120 * sqrt2?), 170 volts is roughly 14.2 times higher than 12V,
    > 30A/14.2 = 2A. Does this even apply? I don't know. Maybe someone
    > can confirm or deny this logic and give some better insight.

    It doesn't apply to the contacts themselves, but it does apply to the
    load. If you had a 120W resistive load it would require 10A at 12V
    but 1A at 120V and you could select a relay accordingly.
    Where you can run into lifetime issues is not having enough current
    going through the contacts. Different material is used for different
    current levels and a minimum (wetting) current is required to keep
    the contacts free of oxidation and other build-ups that add
    resistance. Assuming your load is more than say 100mA, you
    probably don't have to worry about that in this case.

    The voltage rating does matter though.
    An automotive relay is designed for an environment where the
    normal operation is 12V and an expected fault situation (ie. surge)
    is < 100V. A mains rated relay environment is normally 120VAC
    and an expected fault situation is >1000V. The relay must be
    constructed with that voltage in mind, particularly from the contacts
    to the coil. So if you use the automotive relay, all will be fine until
    you get a power surge. Then you have a high voltage looking for
    somewhere to go and your low voltage circuitry is within its reach
    because there isn't much insulation between the contacts and the
    coil.

    Regards,

    Steve.

    ======================================================
    Steve Baldwin Electronic Product Design
    TLA Microsystems Ltd Microcontroller Specialists
    PO Box 15-680, New Lynn http://www.tla.co.nz
    Auckland, New Zealand ph +64 9 820-2221
    email: steveb@t... fax +64 9 820-1929
    ======================================================
  • ArchiverArchiver Posts: 46,084
    edited 2001-08-13 14:37
    You can also buy solid state relays that can turn on a 120Vac device with
    about 20 amps of current running through it, by only using five volts from
    the stamp.


    Original Message
    From: Aaron <snazzyguy2@y...>
    To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
    Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 3:22 PM
    Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Relay Ratings


    > Hello:
    >
    > My current project is a relay driver and although this question isn't
    > strictly a stamp based one I was hoping somebody could help me out a
    > bit. I'm going to use the relays to control a 120 VAC circuit and I
    > have some great 30 AMP Automotive relays but they were originally
    > designed for 12 volts. If I put 120 Vac through the contacts will
    > they have an okay life span.
    >
    > Thank you
    > Aaron Nielsen
    >
    >
    > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
    > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
    > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
    Body of the message will be ignored.
    >
    >
    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
    >
    >
    >
  • ArchiverArchiver Posts: 46,084
    edited 2001-08-13 21:22
    Aaron,

    A relay has three ratings typically. AC, DC and inductive.

    If you know the DC rating you can use ohm's law to determine the
    current carrying capability of the internal wires. Don't worry as
    much about the contacts as they are much larger than the wires from
    the contacts to the connectors.

    There will be a bounce in the contact closure so watch for a dirty
    signal if used for signal purposes.

    It is this bounce that will erode the contacts and char them with
    carbon as the relay is used.

    Higher power contacts have heavier plating to protect from multiple
    uses. If your project is critical, or safety related, don't scrimp,
    get a use rated device and save yourself any headaches. if you're
    just being a hobbyist, go ahead and have fun with the parts you can
    scrounge. (washing machine solenoids make great water valves for
    sprinklers and such)

    Also you may find that you are pennies different from totally silicon
    when you are done. you will need a transistor to power the coil on
    the relay so you will need to power and control that unit with almost
    the same resistors and caps you would need to power an AC line rated
    transistor.

    There was a mention of commercial silicon relays, (solid state)
    these are essentially what you will be building to control the
    mechanical relay, only using less power.

    If you plan on high rates of on and off look into a transistor of
    some sort, a Triac or SCR will allow you to vary the output like a
    dimmer, a switching transistor will be an on/off device. A little
    supporting circuitry and you can switch pretty much whatever you want.

    Check out http://www.americanmicrosemi.com/tutorials.htm it will
    offer a simple overview of the silicon methods of switching.

    Dave








    --- In basicstamps@y..., "Aaron" <snazzyguy2@y...> wrote:
    > Hello:
    >
    > My current project is a relay driver and although this question
    isn't
    > strictly a stamp based one I was hoping somebody could help me out
    a
    > bit. I'm going to use the relays to control a 120 VAC circuit and I
    > have some great 30 AMP Automotive relays but they were originally
    > designed for 12 volts. If I put 120 Vac through the contacts will
    > they have an okay life span.
    >
    > Thank you
    > Aaron Nielsen
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