Ibm 3180
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Posts: 46,084
Robert Staph wrote:
> These things are great, the comptuer term for them is "terminals". Back in
> the day, when CPU's and storage were 20,000+ dollars each on the cheap side,
> users were just connected to the mainframe via RS-232 using some sort of
> terminal display standards. the mainframe just output 25x80 or 40x80 ASCII
> text reflecting what the user was doing(running programs, etc).
>
> Chances are this unit has a 25-pin female connector, 1 AT style keyboard
> connector(or an 8-pin RJ-45) and possibly another 15 or 9 pin male
> connector. There may be dip switches as well to set the serial ports speed
> (which I don't know how to set off hand, but it should be either 2400 or
> 9600 already).
>
> They should follow the same pinouts as modems, PC com ports, etc. but the
> most important thing is to know what kind of terminal display standards this
> unit has, as this will effect how it displays certain characters or strings
> of characters.
>
> The most common types are ANSI, SCOANSI, VT100, VT102, and VT-220. Get
> yourself a serial capable terminal program for windows and wire up the IBM
> to your com port via null modem cable and see what you can see. send
> strings back and forth as well as play with the terminal emulation settings
> in the PC program and eventually you'll find what you need. (A good
> serial/telnet program is CRT,
> http://www.vandyke.com/products/crt/index.html )
>
> If you happen to run any kind of UNIX (seem more common to find Linux now
> days), this little gem is great to have around to play with.
>
> -Rob
>
>
> > Many years ago I worked for a Communication
> > Co. the used monitors that had the Keyboard
> > plugged into it and they had serial ports on
> > them. I thought they would be perfect testing
> > basic stamp programs. I found a working IBM
> > 3180. I cant seem to find any info pertaining
> > to the type on communications it has. Has any
> > got any knowledge on them??
> >
> >
> >
If I remember correctly, the 3180 is not an ascii type of terminal. It should
have a bnc coax connector located on the back. If it does, it is what is known
as an "A" type coax communication device in the IBM 3270 world. If this is what
it is ( been a LONG time ) it is nothing more than a terminal with video memory
and possibly a serial and or parallel port. All keystrokes are sent to the
controller via the coax cable in a phase encoded data stream. The controller
decodes the keystroke and sends back the correct item to be placed on the
screen. It does not use the ascii protocol to communicate to the controller. If
it does not have the coax connector on the back, I am incorrect in remembering
my models and you may indeed have an ascii terminal. If it is a coax device,
I can not think of anything useful that could be done with it.
Good Luck,
Dale Harwood
> These things are great, the comptuer term for them is "terminals". Back in
> the day, when CPU's and storage were 20,000+ dollars each on the cheap side,
> users were just connected to the mainframe via RS-232 using some sort of
> terminal display standards. the mainframe just output 25x80 or 40x80 ASCII
> text reflecting what the user was doing(running programs, etc).
>
> Chances are this unit has a 25-pin female connector, 1 AT style keyboard
> connector(or an 8-pin RJ-45) and possibly another 15 or 9 pin male
> connector. There may be dip switches as well to set the serial ports speed
> (which I don't know how to set off hand, but it should be either 2400 or
> 9600 already).
>
> They should follow the same pinouts as modems, PC com ports, etc. but the
> most important thing is to know what kind of terminal display standards this
> unit has, as this will effect how it displays certain characters or strings
> of characters.
>
> The most common types are ANSI, SCOANSI, VT100, VT102, and VT-220. Get
> yourself a serial capable terminal program for windows and wire up the IBM
> to your com port via null modem cable and see what you can see. send
> strings back and forth as well as play with the terminal emulation settings
> in the PC program and eventually you'll find what you need. (A good
> serial/telnet program is CRT,
> http://www.vandyke.com/products/crt/index.html )
>
> If you happen to run any kind of UNIX (seem more common to find Linux now
> days), this little gem is great to have around to play with.
>
> -Rob
>
>
> > Many years ago I worked for a Communication
> > Co. the used monitors that had the Keyboard
> > plugged into it and they had serial ports on
> > them. I thought they would be perfect testing
> > basic stamp programs. I found a working IBM
> > 3180. I cant seem to find any info pertaining
> > to the type on communications it has. Has any
> > got any knowledge on them??
> >
> >
> >
If I remember correctly, the 3180 is not an ascii type of terminal. It should
have a bnc coax connector located on the back. If it does, it is what is known
as an "A" type coax communication device in the IBM 3270 world. If this is what
it is ( been a LONG time ) it is nothing more than a terminal with video memory
and possibly a serial and or parallel port. All keystrokes are sent to the
controller via the coax cable in a phase encoded data stream. The controller
decodes the keystroke and sends back the correct item to be placed on the
screen. It does not use the ascii protocol to communicate to the controller. If
it does not have the coax connector on the back, I am incorrect in remembering
my models and you may indeed have an ascii terminal. If it is a coax device,
I can not think of anything useful that could be done with it.
Good Luck,
Dale Harwood
Comments
Co. the used monitors that had the Keyboard
plugged into it and they had serial ports on
them. I thought they would be perfect testing
basic stamp programs. I found a working IBM
3180. I cant seem to find any info pertaining
to the type on communications it has. Has any
got any knowledge on them??
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
> I think that they don't have coax connectors on them, but a 25 pin db-25
> style connector that is used with something called a "pigtail" which
> consists of a 25 pin connector and two TWINAX (not coax) connectors. One
> connector is for IN and one is for OUT, it doesn't matter which is which.
> During this last year at work I replaced dozens of these dinosaurs with PCs
> using Ethernet cards to connect to our as400. It is funny to hear these
> things described as "gems", we have grown to hate them at work.
>
> --Dan
Woops,, I was thinking that the 3180 was a 3270 terminal instead of a midrange
device. Oh well, either way, the outcome is pretty much the same. Different
cable, different controller but same final outcome: not of any real use unless
it is connected to the system )-:
Now old ascii terminals,, that is a different story (-: I latch on to them
when I can..
Dale
the day, when CPU's and storage were 20,000+ dollars each on the cheap side,
users were just connected to the mainframe via RS-232 using some sort of
terminal display standards. the mainframe just output 25x80 or 40x80 ASCII
text reflecting what the user was doing(running programs, etc).
Chances are this unit has a 25-pin female connector, 1 AT style keyboard
connector(or an 8-pin RJ-45) and possibly another 15 or 9 pin male
connector. There may be dip switches as well to set the serial ports speed
(which I don't know how to set off hand, but it should be either 2400 or
9600 already).
They should follow the same pinouts as modems, PC com ports, etc. but the
most important thing is to know what kind of terminal display standards this
unit has, as this will effect how it displays certain characters or strings
of characters.
The most common types are ANSI, SCOANSI, VT100, VT102, and VT-220. Get
yourself a serial capable terminal program for windows and wire up the IBM
to your com port via null modem cable and see what you can see. send
strings back and forth as well as play with the terminal emulation settings
in the PC program and eventually you'll find what you need. (A good
serial/telnet program is CRT,
http://www.vandyke.com/products/crt/index.html )
If you happen to run any kind of UNIX (seem more common to find Linux now
days), this little gem is great to have around to play with.
-Rob
Original Message
From: "Kevin D." <kev1718@h...>
To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2001 2:48 PM
Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] IBM 3180
> Many years ago I worked for a Communication
> Co. the used monitors that had the Keyboard
> plugged into it and they had serial ports on
> them. I thought they would be perfect testing
> basic stamp programs. I found a working IBM
> 3180. I cant seem to find any info pertaining
> to the type on communications it has. Has any
> got any knowledge on them??
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
>
>
>
style connector that is used with something called a "pigtail" which
consists of a 25 pin connector and two TWINAX (not coax) connectors. One
connector is for IN and one is for OUT, it doesn't matter which is which.
During this last year at work I replaced dozens of these dinosaurs with PCs
using Ethernet cards to connect to our as400. It is funny to hear these
things described as "gems", we have grown to hate them at work.
--Dan
Original Message
From: Dale Harwood <dale@h...>
To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2001 8:33 AM
Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] IBM 3180
> If I remember correctly, the 3180 is not an ascii type of terminal. It
should
> have a bnc coax connector located on the back. If it does, it is what is
known
> as an "A" type coax communication device in the IBM 3270 world. If this is
what
> it is ( been a LONG time ) it is nothing more than a terminal with video
memory
> and possibly a serial and or parallel port. All keystrokes are sent to the
> controller via the coax cable in a phase encoded data stream. The
controller
> decodes the keystroke and sends back the correct item to be placed on the
> screen. It does not use the ascii protocol to communicate to the
controller. If
> it does not have the coax connector on the back, I am incorrect in
remembering
> my models and you may indeed have an ascii terminal. If it is a coax
device,
> I can not think of anything useful that could be done with it.
>
> Good Luck,
>
> Dale Harwood
>
>
>
>
>
If I remember correctly, the 3180 is part of the 3270 family. If so,
you will need a controller to talk to it correctly. ie 3271, 3272,
3274, 3276. The controllers and terminal have special control charters
that tell the terminal where to display charters, clear screen, CR,
ect.... Also because the 3270 job was to connect to a mainframe,
most IBM mainframes didn't use ASCII, they use a code called EBCDIC (
Extended Binary-Coded-Decimal Interchange Code ) While it would be
possible to make a translater, ASCII <-->EBCDIC, your biggest problem
is to get a 3270 command reference somewhere and issue the correct
command in EBCDIC to the 3180.
Personally, I think you would have a very steep hill to climb.
Bruce
"Kevin D." wrote:
> Many years ago I worked for a Communication
> Co. the used monitors that had the Keyboard
> plugged into it and they had serial ports on
> them. I thought they would be perfect testing
> basic stamp programs. I found a working IBM
> 3180. I cant seem to find any info pertaining
> to the type on communications it has. Has any
> got any knowledge on them??
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
back of it.
Oh well, Something else for the trash pile!!
Kevin
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
and they were designed by the Rochester lab for System/32, System/38 and
S/370 originally.
Interesting to see the comments on the old 3180s. Just to clarify a few
things:
1. The control electronics are separate from the tube and is called the
"Logic Element" ("LE"). This unit was specified at unit order for the
mid-range S/3x or S/370. I believe there was an ASCII LE version for
Series/7, but this was not a big seller if it even existed (the 3150
terminal was the "standard" and most popular I/O device for this system). I
think this helps explain the discrepancies the various people had describing
it. You may need a special key to take the LE off the back of the tube (it
is a plastic piece on a long piece of metal wire and they often went
missing/got stolen) - the key is used to open a ZIF socket and disconnect
the LE from the tube.
2. All LE part numbers were controlled by an Intel 8085. If you have a
3180 and have pulled off the LE, you will see at least one Intel chip, but
nothing with "8085" stamped on it. In fact if you look at all the chips,
you won't see any "standard" part numbers. The LE was built at the time
when IBM used their own part numbers instead of standard part numbers
(including TTL ("VTL" in IBM-Speak)) to make reverse engineering much more
difficult. The unit had (I seem to remember) 8K of RAM for system variables
which was also the terminals Video RAM.
All Electronics in the LE is either bipolar (TTL and IBM Logic) or NMOS.
There is no CMOS.
3. The display was monochrome and could display 80x24 or up to 132x50 with
the proper controller/configuration. In higher resolution modes, it was a
real eye chart. The actual display mode could be requested at the terminal,
but would not change the display unless the controller it was connected to
supported it.
4. The display was originally made by Philips. There was a concern with
the characters being burned into the screen after a few months and the
occasional power supply that caught fire (No fan in the tube and dust would
cause problems). I believe the later terminals went out with Panasonic
tubes and these problems were largely eliminated.
5. The keyboard electronics is identical to the first PC's ("Keyboard F"),
but the plastic and key label molding was different.
6. In operation, the 3180 (of all flavors) was a "Buffered Dumb" terminals.
This means that character keystrokes were saved and sent when a function
key, or "Enter" was pressed. The display was typically a menu, which could
be updated as required.
7. The 3180 was designed so that the first time the Tube, Keyboard and LE
came together was in the customer's office. One of the selling points for
the 3180 was that customers would not have to change their terminals (just
the LEs) when upgrading between systems. This was a major experiment for
IBM as traditionally, terminals were ordered with specific options (like
ordering a car) and thoroughly tested at the factory as complete units
before being sent to the customer's site. I have never heard of this being
done or being a reason why people bought them.
8. The reason why people bought them was a) Price and b) Shape. I believe
the 3180 was the first terminal IBM sold for less than $2K (First Customer
Ship in Late 1981, General Availability was in 1982). The Shape, as the
marketeers always told us was a factor because people wanted a screen with a
flat top to put plants on. This apparently was a major complaint of the
327x series.
9. No 3180 LE was ever designed to work as a non-IBM standard terminal (ie
TTY or VT-100). This was still the IBM that would never consider supporting
competitors equipment.
As was pointed out, you will have difficulty making the full 3180 working
with some other type of equipment. It is not impossible to find the old IBM
Twin-Ax (S/3x), Co-Ax (S/370) or ASCII (S/7) communications descriptions,
but you have to remember that the terminal LE was designed for "menus" of
information rather than single byte packets.
If you pull off the LE and discard it, you should be able to figure out the
connector and have yourself a pretty good digital (TTL level) input
monochrome display. Sorry, I can't remember what the frame rate was (I know
it wasn't 60 Hz).
AND, I don't have any old documentation/information and I don't know where
you could find it except by a search of the Web for old system document
archives. Please don't ask; all the information above is from memory and
there may be points that are incorrect.
myke
Original Message
From: "Bruce" <bsnowde@i...>
To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2001 11:17 PM
Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] IBM 3180
> Kevin,
>
> If I remember correctly, the 3180 is part of the 3270 family. If so,
> you will need a controller to talk to it correctly. ie 3271, 3272,
> 3274, 3276. The controllers and terminal have special control charters
> that tell the terminal where to display charters, clear screen, CR,
> ect.... Also because the 3270 job was to connect to a mainframe,
> most IBM mainframes didn't use ASCII, they use a code called EBCDIC (
> Extended Binary-Coded-Decimal Interchange Code ) While it would be
> possible to make a translater, ASCII <-->EBCDIC, your biggest problem
> is to get a 3270 command reference somewhere and issue the correct
> command in EBCDIC to the 3180.
> Personally, I think you would have a very steep hill to climb.
>
> Bruce
>
>
> "Kevin D." wrote:
>
> > Many years ago I worked for a Communication
> > Co. the used monitors that had the Keyboard
> > plugged into it and they had serial ports on
> > them. I thought they would be perfect testing
> > basic stamp programs. I found a working IBM
> > 3180. I cant seem to find any info pertaining
> > to the type on communications it has. Has any
> > got any knowledge on them??
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
You answered any questions I had about
the unit. I dont think I have much use
for it then. If someone else wants to
"Play" with it, let me know and I will
send to you.
Kevin
>
>I was one of the Test Engineers in Toronto on 3180 (code name was "Puma")
>and they were designed by the Rochester lab for System/32, System/38 and
>S/370 originally.
>
>Interesting to see the comments on the old 3180s. Just to clarify a few
>things:
>
>1. The control electronics are separate from the tube and is called the
>"Logic Element" ("LE"). This unit was specified at unit order for the
>mid-range S/3x or S/370. I believe there was an ASCII LE version for
>Series/7, but this was not a big seller if it even existed (the 3150
>terminal was the "standard" and most popular I/O device for this system).
>I
>think this helps explain the discrepancies the various people had
>describing
>it. You may need a special key to take the LE off the back of the tube (it
>is a plastic piece on a long piece of metal wire and they often went
>missing/got stolen) - the key is used to open a ZIF socket and disconnect
>the LE from the tube.
>
>2. All LE part numbers were controlled by an Intel 8085. If you have a
>3180 and have pulled off the LE, you will see at least one Intel chip, but
>nothing with "8085" stamped on it. In fact if you look at all the chips,
>you won't see any "standard" part numbers. The LE was built at the time
>when IBM used their own part numbers instead of standard part numbers
>(including TTL ("VTL" in IBM-Speak)) to make reverse engineering much more
>difficult. The unit had (I seem to remember) 8K of RAM for system
>variables
>which was also the terminals Video RAM.
>
>All Electronics in the LE is either bipolar (TTL and IBM Logic) or NMOS.
>There is no CMOS.
>
>3. The display was monochrome and could display 80x24 or up to 132x50 with
>the proper controller/configuration. In higher resolution modes, it was a
>real eye chart. The actual display mode could be requested at the
>terminal,
>but would not change the display unless the controller it was connected to
>supported it.
>
>4. The display was originally made by Philips. There was a concern with
>the characters being burned into the screen after a few months and the
>occasional power supply that caught fire (No fan in the tube and dust would
>cause problems). I believe the later terminals went out with Panasonic
>tubes and these problems were largely eliminated.
>
>5. The keyboard electronics is identical to the first PC's ("Keyboard F"),
>but the plastic and key label molding was different.
>
>6. In operation, the 3180 (of all flavors) was a "Buffered Dumb"
>terminals.
>This means that character keystrokes were saved and sent when a function
>key, or "Enter" was pressed. The display was typically a menu, which could
>be updated as required.
>
>7. The 3180 was designed so that the first time the Tube, Keyboard and LE
>came together was in the customer's office. One of the selling points for
>the 3180 was that customers would not have to change their terminals (just
>the LEs) when upgrading between systems. This was a major experiment for
>IBM as traditionally, terminals were ordered with specific options (like
>ordering a car) and thoroughly tested at the factory as complete units
>before being sent to the customer's site. I have never heard of this being
>done or being a reason why people bought them.
>
>8. The reason why people bought them was a) Price and b) Shape. I believe
>the 3180 was the first terminal IBM sold for less than $2K (First Customer
>Ship in Late 1981, General Availability was in 1982). The Shape, as the
>marketeers always told us was a factor because people wanted a screen with
>a
>flat top to put plants on. This apparently was a major complaint of the
>327x series.
>
>9. No 3180 LE was ever designed to work as a non-IBM standard terminal (ie
>TTY or VT-100). This was still the IBM that would never consider
>supporting
>competitors equipment.
>
>
>As was pointed out, you will have difficulty making the full 3180 working
>with some other type of equipment. It is not impossible to find the old
>IBM
>Twin-Ax (S/3x), Co-Ax (S/370) or ASCII (S/7) communications descriptions,
>but you have to remember that the terminal LE was designed for "menus" of
>information rather than single byte packets.
>
>If you pull off the LE and discard it, you should be able to figure out the
>connector and have yourself a pretty good digital (TTL level) input
>monochrome display. Sorry, I can't remember what the frame rate was (I
>know
>it wasn't 60 Hz).
>
>AND, I don't have any old documentation/information and I don't know where
>you could find it except by a search of the Web for old system document
>archives. Please don't ask; all the information above is from memory and
>there may be points that are incorrect.
>
>myke
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com