Home grown pcb... again
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Posts: 46,084
Hello. I use a photocopy transfer method with great results. But this
was not always the case.
A local office supply store has a high speed copier that requires a high
temperature overhead
transfer. They will not use anything that you provide, it must be the
one "approved" for use with
this fancy copier. But this is actually good because these transfers are
not damaged from high
temperatures. Even while they are heated onto a board they transfer 100%
and leave only a
faint outline left on the overhead copy. In the past using a Laserjet or
Laser Fax as copier the
results were poor. With the Laserjet making a few copies and heat
transferring them on top of
the last worked okay. To transfer the design to the board it usually
took 10 minutes for a board
size of 3"x3".
-William
wfranzin@h...
pat.mat@a... wrote:
> OK, is it just me?
> When I try the toner transfer method, I get consistent
> snafus and fubars.
> Trial 1: Laserjet on transparency- incomplete fill
> (traces have edges, but lots of gaposis internally).
> Trial 2: Laserjet on label backing (as recently
> suggested)- traces peeled off inside LJ, leaving black
> spaghetti on the backing.
> Trial 3: LJ on REALLY glossy (almost plastic coated)
> magazine cover (Diesel Digest, fyi). Same as label
> backing.
> Trial 4: LJ on inside cover of DD (less glossy).
> Beautiful traces, just like printing on paper.
> Whoopee, cleaned my copper board, preheated it, layed
> down print, ironed it, let it cool, peeled it off,
> and... half the traces stuck, half NG. Poop. Maybe
> inconsistent contact pressure?
>
> I still have my UV lamp and a photoresist board, but as
> seen in Trial #1, I can't get a clean transparency for a
> mask.
>
> What next??!!
>
> pm
was not always the case.
A local office supply store has a high speed copier that requires a high
temperature overhead
transfer. They will not use anything that you provide, it must be the
one "approved" for use with
this fancy copier. But this is actually good because these transfers are
not damaged from high
temperatures. Even while they are heated onto a board they transfer 100%
and leave only a
faint outline left on the overhead copy. In the past using a Laserjet or
Laser Fax as copier the
results were poor. With the Laserjet making a few copies and heat
transferring them on top of
the last worked okay. To transfer the design to the board it usually
took 10 minutes for a board
size of 3"x3".
-William
wfranzin@h...
pat.mat@a... wrote:
> OK, is it just me?
> When I try the toner transfer method, I get consistent
> snafus and fubars.
> Trial 1: Laserjet on transparency- incomplete fill
> (traces have edges, but lots of gaposis internally).
> Trial 2: Laserjet on label backing (as recently
> suggested)- traces peeled off inside LJ, leaving black
> spaghetti on the backing.
> Trial 3: LJ on REALLY glossy (almost plastic coated)
> magazine cover (Diesel Digest, fyi). Same as label
> backing.
> Trial 4: LJ on inside cover of DD (less glossy).
> Beautiful traces, just like printing on paper.
> Whoopee, cleaned my copper board, preheated it, layed
> down print, ironed it, let it cool, peeled it off,
> and... half the traces stuck, half NG. Poop. Maybe
> inconsistent contact pressure?
>
> I still have my UV lamp and a photoresist board, but as
> seen in Trial #1, I can't get a clean transparency for a
> mask.
>
> What next??!!
>
> pm
Comments
When I try the toner transfer method, I get consistent
snafus and fubars.
Trial 1: Laserjet on transparency- incomplete fill
(traces have edges, but lots of gaposis internally).
Trial 2: Laserjet on label backing (as recently
suggested)- traces peeled off inside LJ, leaving black
spaghetti on the backing.
Trial 3: LJ on REALLY glossy (almost plastic coated)
magazine cover (Diesel Digest, fyi). Same as label
backing.
Trial 4: LJ on inside cover of DD (less glossy).
Beautiful traces, just like printing on paper.
Whoopee, cleaned my copper board, preheated it, layed
down print, ironed it, let it cool, peeled it off,
and... half the traces stuck, half NG. Poop. Maybe
inconsistent contact pressure?
I still have my UV lamp and a photoresist board, but as
seen in Trial #1, I can't get a clean transparency for a
mask.
What next??!!
pm
http://www.al-williams.com/wd5gnr/pcb.htm
Duncan
> Hello. I use a photocopy transfer method with great results....
Yes! It's coming back to me!
I made a board a few years ago (I don't do this often, obviously)...
Never
could get a good laserjet print on transparency, but our office copier
worked OK:
1. LJ onto paper;
2. Copy (with good solidity) onto transparency;
3. Use expensive photoresist coated board, and be happy not too many
boards
are needed, and that wife is not upset about the household iron being
used
for weird purposes.
thx, PM
backing... maybe it's printer dependent?
I'd like to have a LJ that prints on flat stock, i.e., w/o running
around rollers. Would the process work on conductive copper?
BTW, Al, your link to www.industry.net regarding pcb layout software
goes somewhere weird now.
And speaking of which, what are the latest recommendations for pcb
layout shareware?
Thanks all around, pm
orthner@s... wrote:
> I've had excellent results with Al's method at:
>
> http://www.al-williams.com/wd5gnr/pcb.htm
>
> Duncan
sheet plotter (Houston Instrument DMP-29) A guy from work gave it to me.
I've seen them on the web for ~$50. He also gave me a box full of
refillable pens. He told me that the previous owner modified the pen
rise/fall so that it could print right onto PCBs. I haven't tried it yet,
as I just got the Windows drivers for it. I know the test page plots ok.
But anyway, just thinking that you should'nt only look at LJ printers,
especially if you can get a flat sheet pen plotter. This one's like a
9600bd 'Sharpie'
C-
Original Message
From: Patrick Matthews [noparse]/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=AY4uqWrKdsBfD3uhyx0nwQLjfaMznoyZYeCvA7cic9Yb8BlSHD9-RG2sNOodR29ql4Rbr6334Ls]pat.mat@a...[/url
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2000 10:02 PM
To: basicstamps@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Home grown pcb... again
Lots'o good info on Al's page, but I never did get a good print on label
backing... maybe it's printer dependent?
I'd like to have a LJ that prints on flat stock, i.e., w/o running
around rollers. Would the process work on conductive copper?
BTW, Al, your link to www.industry.net regarding pcb layout software
goes somewhere weird now.
And speaking of which, what are the latest recommendations for pcb
layout shareware?
Thanks all around, pm
orthner@s... wrote:
> I've had excellent results with Al's method at:
>
> http://www.al-williams.com/wd5gnr/pcb.htm
>
> Duncan
I use a LJ 1100A with it set to the highest print quality mode and
use APOLLO transparency film for laser printers. (UPC: 718575090134)
I print right from EAGLE CAD to the transparency and then right to
the dark room.
hope this helps..
-James
--- In basicstamps@egroups.com, William Franzin <wfranzin@h...> wrote:
> Hello. I use a photocopy transfer method with great results. But
this
> was not always the case.
> A local office supply store has a high speed copier that requires a
high
> temperature overhead
> transfer. They will not use anything that you provide, it must be
the
> one "approved" for use with
> this fancy copier. But this is actually good because these
transfers are
> not damaged from high
> temperatures. Even while they are heated onto a board they transfer
100%
> and leave only a
> faint outline left on the overhead copy. In the past using a
Laserjet or
> Laser Fax as copier the
> results were poor. With the Laserjet making a few copies and heat
> transferring them on top of
> the last worked okay. To transfer the design to the board it usually
> took 10 minutes for a board
> size of 3"x3".
>
> -William
> wfranzin@h...
>
> pat.mat@a... wrote:
>
> > OK, is it just me?
> > When I try the toner transfer method, I get consistent
> > snafus and fubars.
> > Trial 1: Laserjet on transparency- incomplete fill
> > (traces have edges, but lots of gaposis internally).
> > Trial 2: Laserjet on label backing (as recently
> > suggested)- traces peeled off inside LJ, leaving black
> > spaghetti on the backing.
> > Trial 3: LJ on REALLY glossy (almost plastic coated)
> > magazine cover (Diesel Digest, fyi). Same as label
> > backing.
> > Trial 4: LJ on inside cover of DD (less glossy).
> > Beautiful traces, just like printing on paper.
> > Whoopee, cleaned my copper board, preheated it, layed
> > down print, ironed it, let it cool, peeled it off,
> > and... half the traces stuck, half NG. Poop. Maybe
> > inconsistent contact pressure?
> >
> > I still have my UV lamp and a photoresist board, but as
> > seen in Trial #1, I can't get a clean transparency for a
> > mask.
> >
> > What next??!!
> >
> > pm
regular paper at that!
what I do is print on regular paper, lay it on my copper board, iron the
hell out of it, then let it cool.
now comes the tough part. you soak it in water until the paper peels off
on its own, leaving behind only the toner (and tiny traces of paper).
if you ironed it really well it should withstand a bit of rubbing to
help loosen up the paper.
check out http://www.engsoc.com/~jlavoie/tonertransfer.jpg
on the left is a board just after removing the paper showing only the
toner left behind.
on the right is a board after being etched. it's a bit rough around the
edges, but only because I got impatient taking the paper off and left
lots of little bits of paper where it didn't matter.
the nice thing about this method is that if you find after wetting the
paper that part of it didn't stick you can just shake the water off and
iron it again.
let me know if any of this is helpful.
Jason Lavoie
pat.mat@a... wrote:
> OK, is it just me?
> When I try the toner transfer method, I get consistent
> snafus and fubars.
> Trial 1: Laserjet on transparency- incomplete fill
> (traces have edges, but lots of gaposis internally).
> Trial 2: Laserjet on label backing (as recently
> suggested)- traces peeled off inside LJ, leaving black
> spaghetti on the backing.
> Trial 3: LJ on REALLY glossy (almost plastic coated)
> magazine cover (Diesel Digest, fyi). Same as label
> backing.
> Trial 4: LJ on inside cover of DD (less glossy).
> Beautiful traces, just like printing on paper.
> Whoopee, cleaned my copper board, preheated it, layed
> down print, ironed it, let it cool, peeled it off,
> and... half the traces stuck, half NG. Poop. Maybe
> inconsistent contact pressure?
>
> I still have my UV lamp and a photoresist board, but as
> seen in Trial #1, I can't get a clean transparency for a
> mask.
>
> What next??!!
>
> pm
producing PCBs. I DO NOT use all those hoaky materials. Go to your Drafting
Supplies Place and purchase some 81/2" X 11" white 3mil matte two sides
Drafting File. I use film produced by James River Graphics (JR330W Drafting
Film). Then print your PCB traces on the film. It sticks perfectly just like
you are printing on paper. The UV light will go thru the film no sweat. Then
use the printed sheet on top of the POSITIVE sensitized PCB board being sure
you have perfect contact (I use a printing frame). Be sure the mask is on
the board the proper way(an excersize for the user). Then expose the board
with your UV light. I cannot tell you the time as this depends upon the
sensitizing material, the power of your UV light and the distance of the
light to the board. Experiment just as I did. I found that using a GE
Sunlamp (Don't know where to buy them any more - anyone know???) and the
lamp 6" from the board I can get very good trace production with a 1 minute
exposure. It always worked for me.
Hope this helps.
Vic
_____________________________________________________
Victor Fraenckel - The Windman vfraenc1@n...
Home of the WindReader Electronic Theodolite
Read the WIND
Also, I just thought of a problem with my ironing technique... I put the pcb
right on the padded ironing board. The give of the padding and the typical
warp in the board probably didn't let me get full contact pressure all
over... next time, I'll iron over a hard flat surface.
pm
Jason Lavoie wrote:
> I've had some pretty good results using toner transfers. and with
> regular paper at that!
> what I do is print on regular paper, lay it on my copper board, iron the
> hell out of it, then let it cool.
> now comes the tough part. you soak it in water until the paper peels off
> on its own, leaving behind only the toner (and tiny traces of paper).
> if you ironed it really well it should withstand a bit of rubbing to
> help loosen up the paper.
> check out http://www.engsoc.com/~jlavoie/tonertransfer.jpg
> on the left is a board just after removing the paper showing only the
> toner left behind.
> on the right is a board after being etched. it's a bit rough around the
> edges, but only because I got impatient taking the paper off and left
> lots of little bits of paper where it didn't matter.
> the nice thing about this method is that if you find after wetting the
> paper that part of it didn't stick you can just shake the water off and
> iron it again.
> let me know if any of this is helpful.
>
> Jason Lavoie
figured out that using a home iron isn't the best way to iron the image
on to the board. I bought a small hobby iron from a hobby shop that's
used in ironing out the skins to model aircraft. It's very smooth,
teflon coated and works real well in keeping the paper all at the same
temp. I've found the temp difference with the home iron due to all the
holes for the steam makes the paper not always heat evenly. The uneven
heating makes for missed traces and holes within traces. Mind you,
you're still going to have some small defects after soaking off the
paper. I just spend some extra time with a magnifying glass and etch
resist pen to fill in the blanks. Also, be sure not to make the bare
board too smooth. One of my begining problems was I scrubbed the blank
too hard and made it too smooth. No matter how hard I tried after that,
the iron on wouldn't stick! Now, it's a simple pass with the scotch
brite pad and I'm off to the iron.
HTH
.mark
=================================================
Mark Schoonover KA6WKE IS Manager
Trail Runner,HAM schoon@a...
ka6wke@wb6dgr.#sca.ca.usa.noam
http://www.qsl.net/ka6wke ka6wke-1 145.05
Mobile: 146.52 & 28.470
Lat: 32.85380 Long: -117.00980 Grid: DM12LU
=================================================
>
>From: Jason Lavoie[noparse]/noparse]SMTP:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=5d1m8RCNHW6TUIu2C8ejW4fljChr0lInhZ05XkV7W-ZnwE8L6yaK5GgdPwlw9g_zewKxZ8k2QTC9sGnTO0K_vQ]jlavoie@e...[/url
>Sent: Monday, May 22, 2000 9:22 PM
>To: basicstamps@egroups.com
>Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Home grown pcb... again
>
>I've had some pretty good results using toner transfers. and with
>regular paper at that!
>what I do is print on regular paper, lay it on my copper board, iron the
>hell out of it, then let it cool.
>now comes the tough part. you soak it in water until the paper peels off
>on its own, leaving behind only the toner (and tiny traces of paper).
>if you ironed it really well it should withstand a bit of rubbing to
>help loosen up the paper.
>check out http://www.engsoc.com/~jlavoie/tonertransfer.jpg
>on the left is a board just after removing the paper showing only the
>toner left behind.
>on the right is a board after being etched. it's a bit rough around the
>edges, but only because I got impatient taking the paper off and left
>lots of little bits of paper where it didn't matter.
>
>the nice thing about this method is that if you find after wetting the
>paper that part of it didn't stick you can just shake the water off and
>iron it again.
>
>let me know if any of this is helpful.
>
>Jason Lavoie
>
>pat.mat@a... wrote:
>
>> OK, is it just me?
>> When I try the toner transfer method, I get consistent
>> snafus and fubars.
>> Trial 1: Laserjet on transparency- incomplete fill
>> (traces have edges, but lots of gaposis internally).
>> Trial 2: Laserjet on label backing (as recently
>> suggested)- traces peeled off inside LJ, leaving black
>> spaghetti on the backing.
>> Trial 3: LJ on REALLY glossy (almost plastic coated)
>> magazine cover (Diesel Digest, fyi). Same as label
>> backing.
>> Trial 4: LJ on inside cover of DD (less glossy).
>> Beautiful traces, just like printing on paper.
>> Whoopee, cleaned my copper board, preheated it, layed
>> down print, ironed it, let it cool, peeled it off,
>> and... half the traces stuck, half NG. Poop. Maybe
>> inconsistent contact pressure?
>>
>> I still have my UV lamp and a photoresist board, but as
>> seen in Trial #1, I can't get a clean transparency for a
>> mask.
>>
>> What next??!!
>>
>> pm
>
>
>
>
>
> I don't know about a flat sheet laser printer, but I have a very old flat
> sheet plotter (Houston Instrument DMP-29) A guy from work gave it to me.
> I've seen them on the web for ~$50. He also gave me a box full of
> refillable pens. He told me that the previous owner modified the pen
> rise/fall so that it could print right onto PCBs. I haven't tried it yet,
> as I just got the Windows drivers for it. I know the test page plots ok.
I was thinking about this....seems like it would work quite well. HPGL is
quite easy to write, and most cad software will output it.
Sean T. Lamont, CTO / Chief NetNerd, Abstract Software, Inc. (ServNet)
Seattle - Bellingham - Vancouver - Portland - Everett - Tacoma - Bremerton
email: lamont@a... WWW: http://www.serv.net
"...There's no moral, it's just a lot of stuff that happens". - H. Simpson
I've not read all the messages about the PCB thing.
But as I can understand, the trouble is to get a clean layout on a transparent paper .
An alternative method :
Just print it on regular piece of paper. BUT, print in a normal way, I mean, not mirrored.
Take the paper and lay it in front of you. With the printed layout to the bottom.
Now, go find, or ask nicely to the closest woman/man that you meet, the oil that she/he uses for her/his sewing machine.
If found put that on your paper, not too much and wipe it around your layout. As you now can see your paper is turning
transparent. Wipe the the rest of the oil off.
Put the paper in your UV machine, with the printed side up, PCB board on top.
Lights on for about 3~4 minutes. And ready to develop.
A co-worker learned me this method and we use it from time to time for our PCB's that we make for small projects.
Good luck and happy building....
--- Greetings from Joost Luyten, ON2BBP
email :
- on2bbp@pi.be
- on2bbp@advalvas.be (this sends an SMS notification to my mobile phone)
ICQ· : 45143957
Home :
Joost Luyten
Werftsesteenweg 44
2220 Heist op den Berg
Belgium
Oorspronkelijk bericht
Van: Sean T. Lamont .lost. <lamont@abstractsoft.com>
Aan: basicstamps@egroups.com <basicstamps@egroups.com>
Datum: dinsdag 23 mei 2000 21:28
Onderwerp: RE: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Home grown pcb... again
On Mon, 22 May 2000, Chris Parasida wrote:
> I don't know about a flat sheet laser printer, but I have a very old flat
> sheet plotter (Houston Instrument DMP-29) A guy from work gave it to me.
> I've seen them on the web for ~$50.· He also gave me a box full of
> refillable pens. He told me that the previous owner modified the pen
> rise/fall so that it could print right onto PCBs.· I haven't tried it yet,
> as I just got the Windows drivers for it.· I know the test page plots ok.
I was thinking about this....seems like it would work quite well. HPGL is
quite easy to write, and most cad software will output it.
Sean T. Lamont, CTO / Chief NetNerd, Abstract Software, Inc. (ServNet)·
Seattle - Bellingham - Vancouver - Portland - Everett - Tacoma - Bremerton
email: lamont@abstractsoft.com············· WWW:· http://www.serv.net
"...There's no moral, it's just a lot of stuff that happens". - H. Simpson