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Without compromising any proprietary information could or would some of you in the professional end describe commercial products which use the bs2?· I am beginning to learn how to use the stamp with information from both Anderson and Williams.· I know from the recent thread that there is a great deal of controversy concerning which languages are the best to learn.· It seems to a newbie that the chip· used dictates the language if efficiency is the goal.
··· My next question is this.· Are embedded chips going to go the way of the PC with ever increasing speed and memory such that sloppy·and bloated code ( such as Windows) will become the norm?·
··· And finally in your varied opinions other than PBasic what would be the single best language to learn if I need to keep pace with chip development and the ever increasing sophistication in embedded use.
Thank-you·for your responses
Mark H. Gillett
Plant@mindspring.com
··· My next question is this.· Are embedded chips going to go the way of the PC with ever increasing speed and memory such that sloppy·and bloated code ( such as Windows) will become the norm?·
··· And finally in your varied opinions other than PBasic what would be the single best language to learn if I need to keep pace with chip development and the ever increasing sophistication in embedded use.
Thank-you·for your responses
Mark H. Gillett
Plant@mindspring.com
Comments
>
> Without compromising any proprietary information could or would some
> of you in the professional end describe commercial products which use
> the bs2? I am beginning to learn how to use the stamp with
> information from both Anderson and Williams. I know from the recent
> thread that there is a great deal of controversy concerning which
> languages are the best to learn. It seems to a newbie that the chip
> used dictates the language if efficiency is the goal.
These language disputes tend to be theological in nature. In practice
you use what's available for the uP/uC you're working with - BASIC is
probably the most widely known, C probably most widely used
professionally.
Assembler, of course. You still need to understand the uP/uC itself
to program it, claims of "portability" somewhat misleading here...
> My next question is this. Are embedded chips going to go the way
> of the PC with ever increasing speed and memory such that sloppy and
> bloated code ( such as Windows) will become the norm?
Eventually, no doubt. Not holding my breath.
> And finally in your varied opinions other than PBasic what would
> be the single best language to learn if I need to keep pace with chip
> development and the ever increasing sophistication in embedded use.
C is the de facto standard.
BTW, list etiquette is to post in text, not HTML, for reasons of
bandwidth and widest compatibility.
I had to convert your post to text to read it. Slow day - Usually I
just delete HTML posts unread.
regards, Jack
This isn't on-topic, but I'll toss in one more opinion...
The evidence so far suggests that the fastest microcontrollers will have
*reduced* memory and fewer peripheral features. The programming language of
choice is therefore Assembly! This judgement is based primarily on what I'm
seeing from Scenix.
Parallax, of course, lets you trade off some economy and the blazing speed of
pure assembly language for an improved (BASIC) application development
environment. Such tradeoffs can be carried to extremes, by using large
external
memories for application code.
It's also worth noting that Motorola is rapidly advancing the ColdFire family.
They currently offer a very fast/cheap/complex 32-bit job with abundant
peripherals (MCF5206e), but no flash code memory.
>
> My next question is this.· Are embedded chips going to go the way of the PC
> with ever increasing speed and memory such that sloppy·and bloated code (
> such as Windows) will become the norm?
Mike Hardwick, for Decade Engineering -- <http://www.decadenet.com>
Manufacturer of the famous BOB-II Serial Video Text Display Module!
>Without compromising any proprietary information could or would some of you
in the professional end describe commercial products which use the bs2? I
am beginning to learn how to use the stamp with information from both
Anderson and Williams. I know from the recent thread that there is a great
deal of controversy concerning which languages are the best to learn. It
seems to a newbie that the chip used dictates the language if efficiency is
the goal.
> My next question is this. Are embedded chips going to go the way of
the PC with ever increasing speed and memory such that sloppy and bloated
code ( such as Windows) will become the norm?
> And finally in your varied opinions other than PBasic what would be the
single best language to learn if I need to keep pace with chip development
and the ever increasing sophistication in embedded use.
Mark,
For Stamp Projects, follow the L.O.S.A link at the
Parallax site, this gives a listing of all projects,
some that are very commercial, others that are hobby.
Bloated??? that is the way of EVERYTHING on Earth!
as people try to cram more, into less.....even food :-)
On which way to go??
It is only you that can make that decision! I have
only your msg to go on :-) How much time do you have?
Do you want to make this a career? Is it a part time job?
What is your background expertise?
For my money....its BASIC, Pbasic for Stamp, Pic Basic
for PIC's, Visual Basic for PC.
If you don't want to write code to drive the Space
Shuttle.....its fine! If you want to bury yourself in
thousands of hours to learn C and other languages....OK,
you will do more things than BASIC can do.....but not
much more.
Publications and NET sites have lots of great info on
BASIC. If your brain is old and faded like mine, and you
don't have lots of time to devote to learning........
the choice is only BASIC.
Jack Chomley
Australia
Jack Chomley
Rockhampton, Q,Land Australia
greenhouse which is a time intensive business. I would like to use today's
chips to automate some of what we do and maybe sell it to the trade. I am
nearing 50 but my brain seems to function very well ( thanks to the miracle
of modern chemistry ). I could and would learn C if the effort to do so was
necessary to meet my goals. On the other side I don't want to spend the
effort or the time on a language which will become obsolete in the near
future because technology is moving faster than my learning curve. I spoke
to a IT recruiter the other day and she said that C programmers are hare to
come by. That tells me that soon someone will come up with an alternative
to C programmers as that is the development strategy of technology to leap
frog problems.
Mark Gillett
Original Message
From: jack chomley <jackc@r...>
To: <basicstamps@egroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 7:16 PM
Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Newbie
> At 11:52 AM 5/7/2000 -0400, Mark wrote:
> >Without compromising any proprietary information could or would some of
you
> in the professional end describe commercial products which use the bs2? I
> am beginning to learn how to use the stamp with information from both
> Anderson and Williams. I know from the recent thread that there is a
great
> deal of controversy concerning which languages are the best to learn. It
> seems to a newbie that the chip used dictates the language if efficiency
is
> the goal.
> > My next question is this. Are embedded chips going to go the way of
> the PC with ever increasing speed and memory such that sloppy and bloated
> code ( such as Windows) will become the norm?
> > And finally in your varied opinions other than PBasic what would be
the
> single best language to learn if I need to keep pace with chip development
> and the ever increasing sophistication in embedded use.
>
> Mark,
>
> For Stamp Projects, follow the L.O.S.A link at the
> Parallax site, this gives a listing of all projects,
> some that are very commercial, others that are hobby.
> Bloated??? that is the way of EVERYTHING on Earth!
> as people try to cram more, into less.....even food :-)
> On which way to go??
> It is only you that can make that decision! I have
> only your msg to go on :-) How much time do you have?
> Do you want to make this a career? Is it a part time job?
> What is your background expertise?
> For my money....its BASIC, Pbasic for Stamp, Pic Basic
> for PIC's, Visual Basic for PC.
> If you don't want to write code to drive the Space
> Shuttle.....its fine! If you want to bury yourself in
> thousands of hours to learn C and other languages....OK,
> you will do more things than BASIC can do.....but not
> much more.
> Publications and NET sites have lots of great info on
> BASIC. If your brain is old and faded like mine, and you
> don't have lots of time to devote to learning........
> the choice is only BASIC.
>
> Jack Chomley
> Australia
>
>
> Jack Chomley
> Rockhampton, Q,Land Australia
>
>
>
>
C programmers are hard to come by? Humph. I think she was saying
"those
who admit to knowing C while a Sophomore in college are hard to come
by".
Java and C++ are the sexy languages dejure. If you know C++, you know
C.
C is not a dead language like Pascal and Modula 3 is, it is very alive
and
kicking - but programming recruiters deal in image, not knowledge, so
they
don't quite get that... C is a good language to learn, but quite
frankly,
once you have made the effort to learn _any_ language, the next one is
easier, and so on. The Stamp is a good embedded controller to learn and
product products on. Its small and reliable, the new OEM versions are
even
cheaper for final product integration too. If your A/D needs aren't
stringent
(read: need to be superfast) then learning Basic and using BASCOM AVR on
the
new AVR chips is a very good alternative. Check out the BASCOM and AVR
links
on my site for some information on this. Embedded control isn't like
writing
a database, if it works great now, it'll still work great in 10 years.
There
are no false starts, you just switch lines!
have fun,
DLC
plant@m... wrote:
>
> Thank-you for your reply. The quick answer is I don't know. I own a
> greenhouse which is a time intensive business. I would like to use today's
> chips to automate some of what we do and maybe sell it to the trade. I am
> nearing 50 but my brain seems to function very well ( thanks to the miracle
> of modern chemistry ). I could and would learn C if the effort to do so was
> necessary to meet my goals. On the other side I don't want to spend the
[noparse][[/noparse]snip]
http://www.verinet.com/~dlc/botlinks.htm
--
=========================================================
Dennis Clark http://www.verinet.com/~dlc/
"Be well, do good work and stay in touch" dlc@v...
=========================================================
For what you're up to PBASIC will get you a long way.
Also check PBASIC compilers available from 3rd parties,
which generate PIC assembler from PBASIC-style code.
There is a support list for at least one of these products.
If you are seeking employment as a professional programmer
C is the current gnosis - Otherwise, there's lots of ways
to get it done.
The other Jack
plant@m... wrote:
> ... I own a
> greenhouse which is a time intensive business. I would like to use today's
> chips to automate some of what we do and maybe sell it to the trade.
There is no question that to really exploit pics ( or any processor for that
matter ) to the maximum, you need to be familiar with the instruction set. Do
yourself a favor and start studying assembler for the processor of your choice.
C is fine, but the arcane syntax and all of its more difficult aspects exist as
abstractions of things that people were already doing in assembler. Pointers,
indexing, indirect addressing, all stuff that you do in pure machine code being
re-presented as C abstractions. Funny thing, this stuff is far easier to grasp
in the context of pure assembler and you'll gain the intimate knowledge of the
quirks of the specific processor which is also invaluable. Start learning VB
also ( focus more on the 'B' than the 'V' ); the background will allow you to
quickly absorb any pic based BASIC dialects, most are pretty processor specific
anyway so knowing the processor speeds up knowing the flavor of Basic you happen
to be studying.
C ( or C++ ) is fine for what it is but it is hardly the 'must know' it was
5-7 years ago. Knowledge of the Win API is far more valuable than the C++
itself. C is pretty much the only game in town under linux so it is still hot
in
that world. If you are producing a commercial 'shrink-wrap' app or a game then
C
knowledge and coding is the only way to go ( but the best game coders slip into
'inline assembly' for most of their 'C' code anyway(g) ).
Learning any pic based language ( c or basic ) is going to be more about the
specific pic processor targeted than it is about the language; so pic your
processor carefully and then start learning the machine code and assembler
syntax. I'm guessing that after a while you'll have forgotten about finding a
language because you'll be as productive as needed. If your target processor is
one that is more 'processor' than 'interrupt controller' ( ie. 805x, z80, 680xx
)
than you will want to investigate a targeting compiler tool, all the best of
which seem to be C syntax based ( note, that is not VC or C++ syntax, pretty
much
'C 101', is all that is in common here. ) The specific hardware environment(s)
color the majority of the skills and knowledge required so again, pick your
platform carefully!(g)
Visual basic is great for rapid prototyping of apps that talk with pics and
can't be beat, IMHO. As of VB 6.0 there is very little that can't be done one
way or another any more. VB enterprise app programmers, especially web based
apps, are getting about 30% more than the C snobs these days, they hate that!(g)
To fully exploit this new 'embedded processor' world you'll need to hone all
these skills; but man what a ride! Enjoy...
Bill Mrozinski - DCS
goflo@p... wrote:
> Hi Mark -
>
> For what you're up to PBASIC will get you a long way.
> Also check PBASIC compilers available from 3rd parties,
> which generate PIC assembler from PBASIC-style code.
> There is a support list for at least one of these products.
> If you are seeking employment as a professional programmer
> C is the current gnosis - Otherwise, there's lots of ways
> to get it done.
>
> The other Jack
>
> plant@m... wrote:
> > ... I own a
> > greenhouse which is a time intensive business. I would like to use today's
> > chips to automate some of what we do and maybe sell it to the trade.
potential that it has. I am interested in the microcontroller world and I
have decided to use the stamp rather than learning assembly lagnuage.
I do have some very very basic BASIC (heh heh) programming skills, so I hope
that will help me in the learning curve. Does anyone have any
recommendations for a newbie?
Thank you!
Jason
>Hello to all. I am new to the basic stamp and I am very interested in the
>potential that it has. I am interested in the microcontroller world and I
>have decided to use the stamp rather than learning assembly lagnuage.
>I do have some very very basic BASIC (heh heh) programming skills, so I hope
>that will help me in the learning curve. Does anyone have any
>recommendations for a newbie?
>
>Thank you!
>
>Jason
>
>Hi Jason -
Welcome to the world of the Parallax PBASIC Stamp, and to microcontrollers
in general. I suspect if you're like the rest of us, you'll have a LOT of
fun, and enjoy the experience. We CERTAINLY have !
The FIRST step for the Stamp is to download the manual. It's free for the
download from the Parallax web site. If you've not done so yet you should
obtain it from the Parallax web site here: http://www.parallainc.com and
head for the DOWNLOAD Section.
After reading the manual, you may wish to download some of the other
publications also found on their web site. The various publication are
listed there. The FIRST place to go is "Getting Started With BASIC Stamps"
as shown on the web site menu.
If you have any questions or problems feel free to use this list as a resource.
There is usually someone around to answer your questions or assist you.
Good luck, and HAVE FUN !!
Regards,
Bruce Bates
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> Hello to all. I am new to the basic stamp and I am very interested
in the
> potential that it has. I am interested in the microcontroller world
and I
> have decided to use the stamp rather than learning assembly
lagnuage.
> I do have some very very basic BASIC (heh heh) programming skills,
so I hope
> that will help me in the learning curve. Does anyone have any
> recommendations for a newbie?
>
> Thank you!
>
> Jason
Hi Jason,
I'm a newbie too and started out with the Parallax OEM Basic Stamp II
kit,.. it's cheap and complete ... see how I started;
Some of the English pages (sources are available for download)
1. WeetHet - Basic Stamp 2 - Programming your Basic Stamp 2 with your
PC
Last updated 21 May 2001 Basic Stamp 2 Programming with a PC How to
program your Basic Stamp using your PC I have to admit that this was
not as easy to start with since I missed a
URL: http://www.weethet.nl/english/basicstamp2_pc.htm
2. WeetHet - Basic Stamp 2 - Controlling Hitachi 44780 based LCD's
Last updated 21 May 2001 BASIC Stamp II Controlling LCD s Controlling
a Hitachi 44780 based LCD display In this article I ll try to explain
to you how to control a LCD display wit
URL: http://www.weethet.nl/english/basicstamp2_lcdcontrol.htm
3. WeetHet - Microcontroller - Parallax OEM Basic Stamp II - Assembly
instructions
Last updated 21 May 2001 Building the OEM Basic Stamp II Assembly
Instructions On this page you will find a brief instruction on how to
assemble the Keep in mind that this is a VE
URL: http://www.weethet.nl/english/basicstamp2_assembly.htm
4. WeetHet - Microcontroller - Parallax OEM Basic Stamp II for the
impatient
Last updated 21 May 2001 Microcontrollers Basic Stamp II Getting
started This serie of pages on this website will help you on your way
with the Parallax OEM Basic Stamp II microco
URL: http://www.weethet.nl/english/basicstamp2_start.htm
5. WeetHet - Basic Stamp II scematics
Last updated 21 May 2001 OEM Basic Stamp II Scematics Scematics of
the OEM Basic Stamp II by C 2001 Hans Luyten Webmaster WeetHet NL
URL: http://www.weethet.nl/english/basicstamp2_schema.htm
I am very new to baic stamps. I first learned about them in the Nuts and Volts
magazine; what a great magazie. So, it is my goal to duplicate a lot of the
experiments that I have been reading about. So, my first step is learn Pbasic
and then how to connect the harware. Can someone point me in the correct
direction? What is the best way to learn this stuff? Can I get basic stamps
locally or do I have to order them from somewhere?
Thanks
James Brady
Richmond, VA
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
[noparse][[/noparse]Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Hello,
>
>I am very new to baic stamps. I first learned about them in the Nuts and
>Volts magazine; what a great magazie. So, it is my goal to duplicate a lot
>of the experiments that I have been reading about. So, my first step is
>learn Pbasic and then how to connect the harware. Can someone point me in
>the correct direction? What is the best way to learn this stuff? Can I get
>basic stamps locally or do I have to order them from somewhere?
>
>Thanks
>
>James Brady
>Richmond, VA
Hi James -
Welcome to Stamping ! Here is the link for Parallax the folks who created
the PBASIC Stamp: http://www.parallax.com/ . That's home base so to speak.
Once you reach there, head for the documentation section and download the
Stamp PBASIC Users Manual or use this link:
<http://www.parallax.com/html_pages/downloads/basicstamps/documentation_basic_st\
amp.asp>
Copy the above link into your browser if necessary.
The Stamp hardware can be purchased directly from Parallax or any number of
additional resources. The full list of Parallax Distributors can be found here:
<http://www.parallax.com/html_pages/company/distributors/distributors.asp>
The Parallax web site is probably the best resource for complete and
accurate information about the PBASIC Stamp. As you peruse the web site,
you will find a wealth of valuable information. Parallax is very generous
in providing lots
of free information about the Stamp and various Stamp Applications. There is
also a section on the AppMods available from Parallax to ease you into some of
the more common applications. You can spend your time programming rather than
building and troubleshooting breadboards and power supplies.
There are numerous other resources that you will see on this list from time
to time, as well as ongoing projects and questions by other Stampers;
newbies and veterans alike. Remember that the only "dumb" questions are the
ones which
remain unasked !
Have fun and most of all ENJOY the Stamp Experience !
Regards,
Bruce Bates
might also enjoy the unofficial Stamp FAQ at
http://www.wd5gnr.com/stampfaq.htm. Also, be sure to read the project of
the month (which is 99% Stamp related) at
http://www.al-williams.com/som.htm
Enjoy!
Al Williams
AWC
* NEW: PAK-VIa - Read PS/2 keyboards or mice -- double the buffer, lower
current consumption.
http://www.al-williams.com/awce/pak6.htm
>
Original Message
> From: james brady [noparse]/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=pxw2AZtYhX8cn_6phXLGK0FbZQwfM2QA02_Z1_liphPg37lXf3kxINQ5KHZkhM5K-YsyOVsLILg4nLATBcppOqnjYA]bradyjames2000@y...[/url
> Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 10:56 AM
> To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] newbie
>
>
> Hello,
>
> I am very new to baic stamps. I first learned about them in
> the Nuts and Volts magazine; what a great magazie. So, it is
> my goal to duplicate a lot of the experiments that I have
> been reading about. So, my first step is learn Pbasic and
> then how to connect the harware. Can someone point me in the
> correct direction? What is the best way to learn this stuff?
> Can I get basic stamps locally or do I have to order them
> from somewhere?
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
> James Brady
> Richmond, VA
>
>
>
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
>
> [noparse][[/noparse]Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the
> Subject and Body of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
parallex site:
http://www.parallax.com/Downloads/Software/Basic_Stamp_Tutorial.zip
WARNING its 7.5Mb but that's becuase it has lots of diagrams and photos in
it!!
Start simple. This presentation even answers a few of the hewbie questions
that get posted here!
This is exactly what I did about a month ago and its by far the best place
to start.
Quick learning too!!
Kev/.
far as getting locally, open up the phone book and search for electronics
stores. Just phone and ask.
Where I live there are four stores. Two carry stamps, one carries PICs, and
the other carries no processors, just chips and tons of accessories/salvage
stuff.
Meridian 59 is back! Sacred Haven - server 200
www.skotos.net
Original Message
From: "james brady" <bradyjames2000@y...>
To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 8:55 AM
Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] newbie
> Hello,
>
> I am very new to baic stamps. I first learned about them in the Nuts and
Volts magazine; what a great magazie. So, it is my goal to duplicate a lot
of the experiments that I have been reading about. So, my first step is
learn Pbasic and then how to connect the harware. Can someone point me in
the correct direction? What is the best way to learn this stuff? Can I get
basic stamps locally or do I have to order them from somewhere?
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
> James Brady
> Richmond, VA
>
>
>
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
>
> [noparse][[/noparse]Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
Body of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
You can download documentation (and compiler) that is well written and have
all you need to get started with the electronics and the PBasic code.
If you check Radio Shack (On-line) you can order most of the components...
including a carrier board.
Original Message
From: "james brady" <bradyjames2000@y...>
To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 10:55 AM
Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] newbie
> Hello,
>
> I am very new to baic stamps. I first learned about them in the Nuts and
Volts magazine; what a great magazie. So, it is my goal to duplicate a lot
of the experiments that I have been reading about. So, my first step is
learn Pbasic and then how to connect the harware. Can someone point me in
the correct direction? What is the best way to learn this stuff? Can I get
basic stamps locally or do I have to order them from somewhere?
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
> James Brady
> Richmond, VA
>
>
>
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
>
> [noparse][[/noparse]Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
Body of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
I'll just add:
I'd recommend the Board Of Education (BOE)
'Full Kit'. It's $119 WITH BS2, cable, and
power supply. It has a very useful
prototyping area, and many Parallax docs assume
you have one.
I'd also recommend buying a class to start with.
Recommended is the Analog and Digital Interfacing
class (for sound, A to D, op-amps, LED's) or the
'What's a Microcontroller?' class (it has a
servo, so you can create motion!)
These resources should be enough to jump-start
you into your own projects.
--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, james brady <bradyjames2000@y...>
wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I am very new to baic stamps. I first learned about them in the
Nuts and Volts magazine; what a great magazie. So, it is my goal to
duplicate a lot of the experiments that I have been reading about.
So, my first step is learn Pbasic and then how to connect the
harware. Can someone point me in the correct direction? What is the
best way to learn this stuff? Can I get basic stamps locally or do I
have to order them from somewhere?
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
> James Brady
> Richmond, VA
>
>
>
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
>
> [noparse][[/noparse]Non-text portions of this message have been removed]