off topic
Archiver
Posts: 46,084
Hi Everyone,
I'm wondering if there is a way i can determine if the grounded outlets in
my house are truly grounded? I recently bought a weller WES50 ESD safe
soldering iron as well as an ESD mat.
I ordered a device from newark, an Ideal industries(stat gard(61-038)),
which indicates if your ground is working, but the item is backordered and
unavailable for some time.
most all my work involves stamps, so hopefully this is not to off topic.
thanks
steve
I'm wondering if there is a way i can determine if the grounded outlets in
my house are truly grounded? I recently bought a weller WES50 ESD safe
soldering iron as well as an ESD mat.
I ordered a device from newark, an Ideal industries(stat gard(61-038)),
which indicates if your ground is working, but the item is backordered and
unavailable for some time.
most all my work involves stamps, so hopefully this is not to off topic.
thanks
steve
Comments
Go to your local hardware store and pick up an outlet checker.
It has three LEDs on it that will check wiring for proper layout.
Its a pretty cheap item too.
DLC
sargent@s... wrote:
>
> Hi Everyone,
>
> I'm wondering if there is a way i can determine if the grounded outlets in
> my house are truly grounded? I recently bought a weller WES50 ESD safe
> soldering iron as well as an ESD mat.
>
> I ordered a device from newark, an Ideal industries(stat gard(61-038)),
> which indicates if your ground is working, but the item is backordered and
> unavailable for some time.
>
> most all my work involves stamps, so hopefully this is not to off topic.
>
> thanks
>
> steve
--
Dennis Clark http://www.verinet.com/~dlc
dlc@v...
>Hi Everyone,
>
>I'm wondering if there is a way i can determine if the grounded outlets in
>my house are truly grounded? I recently bought a weller WES50 ESD safe
>soldering iron as well as an ESD mat.
>
>I ordered a device from newark, an Ideal industries(stat gard(61-038)),
>which indicates if your ground is working, but the item is backordered and
>unavailable for some time.
>
>most all my work involves stamps, so hopefully this is not to off topic.
>
>thanks
>
>steve
Run to your nearest hardware store and purchase one of those little outlet
testers. It will have 3 lights on it - when it is plugged into a properly
wired and grounded outlet, two of the lights are lit and the last is
out. There are other more expensive versions that will actually pass a
brief but substantial pulse into the ground and provide a very good
indication of the quality of ground but you may not need this.
If you are competent to handle 120 VAC wiring without injuring yourself,
you can test it yourself. You will need a 60W to 100W lamp (standard 120
VAC) and suitable lamp base, a 3 conductor cord brought out to pigtails and
a meter. The concept is simple - pass the lamp current from the HOT to the
GROUND terminals and measure the voltage drop on the ground. But it
involves dangerous voltages and you MUST be careful!
All you do is wire the lamp between the BLACK and GREEN wires. Connect the
meter between the WHITE and GREEN wires. Make sure that everything is
insulated and won't touch anything or anybody. Plug in the cord. If the
ground is OK, the lamp will light full brightness and you will measure less
than 2 or 3 volts AC between the WHITE and GREEN wires. If the lamp does
NOT light, you have problems and must have them dealt with.
You can approximate the ground wire resistance by noting that the current
drawn from the lamp causes the voltage differential between the ground and
neutral lines (assuming that this is the only load on that branch
circuit). Figure out how much current is flowing (I=P/V), then figure out
the ground conductor resistance. Note that this measures the conductor
(wire) resistance only.
This test is simple and reliable. But it won't catch ground to neutral
shorts and you have to be careful while performing the test.
Hope this helps!
dwayne
Dwayne Reid <dwayner@p...>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice (780) 487-6397 fax
Celebrating 16 years of Engineering Innovation (1984 - 2000)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to this email address.
This message neither grants consent to receive unsolicited
commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial email.
>
>Hi Everyone,
>
>I'm wondering if there is a way i can determine if the grounded outlets in
>my house are truly grounded? I recently bought a weller WES50 ESD safe
>soldering iron as well as an ESD mat.
>
>I ordered a device from newark, an Ideal industries(stat gard(61-038)),
>which indicates if your ground is working, but the item is backordered and
>unavailable for some time.
>
>most all my work involves stamps, so hopefully this is not to off topic.
>
>thanks
>
>steve
Steve -
As stated, the only way you can get an empirical test is with a continuity
check on the earth ground vs. a known good external driven ground. If there
is little difference between the two resistance readings, your ground
circuit is complete.
The instrument used to make these tests is a "Megger" (reads in megaohms).
The device uses a very high voltage, very low current, very short duration
pulse
to make the test. It probably will exceed the voltage ratings of any wire
in the
path. That's fine - that is the intent of an earth ground to carry maximum
voltage
and current safely to ground. In a properly conditioned AC electrical
system, this ground fault can be detected, and appropriate action will be
taken (per NEC or other regulations). Not all systems require detection or
action; often the solid ground path is adequate to meet the users
requirement. That would seem to be the
case here.
Be happy to speak more about it offlist if you wish. I own a "Megger"
(Amprobe)
and would be happy to answer any other similar grounding questions. My
expertise
is NOT in ESD, but rather residential and commercial AC electrical systems,
ground fault protection and grounding/bonding of said systems. Here those
two topics meet.
Regards,
Bruce
>
>
>
>
only by using a megger can you be truly sure that the neutral and ground
have NOT been bonded together at some point. The 3 led device only sees that
some wire that eventually goes to ground is connected to the ground screw.
If someone at sometime at some point (other than the main panel) on your
system , had tied the neutral and ground together, then you don't have a
'good' ground and will be subject to problems with "transients" or "sneak
currents".
Dan
Original Message
From: Bruce Bates [noparse]/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=qd4-Kd2aqPf0OpUCIzXjZNagjvgjF5nmp6f5fKtPDjn-67JSUpuGSCPHVpvbl5bAtKE2D63zRp6Rr7yMDCMawNbE6Lis_2BZ3wNesqM]bvbates@m...[/url
Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2000 11:52 PM
To: basicstamps@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] off topic
At 10:11 PM 5/3/00 -0500, sargent@s... promulgated:
>
>Hi Everyone,
>
>I'm wondering if there is a way i can determine if the grounded outlets in
>my house are truly grounded? I recently bought a weller WES50 ESD safe
>soldering iron as well as an ESD mat.
>
>I ordered a device from newark, an Ideal industries(stat gard(61-038)),
>which indicates if your ground is working, but the item is backordered and
>unavailable for some time.
>
>most all my work involves stamps, so hopefully this is not to off topic.
>
>thanks
>
>steve
Steve -
As stated, the only way you can get an empirical test is with a continuity
check on the earth ground vs. a known good external driven ground. If there
is little difference between the two resistance readings, your ground
circuit is complete.
The instrument used to make these tests is a "Megger" (reads in megaohms).
The device uses a very high voltage, very low current, very short duration
pulse
to make the test. It probably will exceed the voltage ratings of any wire
in the
path. That's fine - that is the intent of an earth ground to carry maximum
voltage
and current safely to ground. In a properly conditioned AC electrical
system, this ground fault can be detected, and appropriate action will be
taken (per NEC or other regulations). Not all systems require detection or
action; often the solid ground path is adequate to meet the users
requirement. That would seem to be the
case here.
Be happy to speak more about it offlist if you wish. I own a "Megger"
(Amprobe)
and would be happy to answer any other similar grounding questions. My
expertise
is NOT in ESD, but rather residential and commercial AC electrical systems,
ground fault protection and grounding/bonding of said systems. Here those
two topics meet.
Regards,
Bruce
>
>
>
>
>I feel that I have to jump in here. I agree with all that has been said BUT
>only by using a megger can you be truly sure that the neutral and ground
>have NOT been bonded together at some point. The 3 led device only sees that
>some wire that eventually goes to ground is connected to the ground screw.
>If someone at sometime at some point (other than the main panel) on your
>system , had tied the neutral and ground together, then you don't have a
>'good' ground and will be subject to problems with "transients" or "sneak
>currents".
I fail to see your reasoning. In fact, why use a Megger at all? A Megger
is used to measure HIGH resistance values, not low (although modern units
can measure low resistance values). But a standard Megger (like the
original crank handle units) measures leakage and insulation resistance values.
The neutral and ground wires are SUPPOSED to be connected together, but
only at the main disconnect panel (the service entrance). The problem I
was alluding to was where someone might have faked a grounded outlet in a
location with only two conductor wiring by connecting the neutral wire to
the ground terminal of the receptacle. Don't laugh - I have come across
this several times.
The Canadian Electrical Code (and its US counterpart - the National
Electrical Code) require that the incoming neutral be bonded to both the
casing of the meter socket as well as the main disconnect panel. These are
in turn bonded together and to Earth ground.
The bottom line, however, is that checking the quality of the ground
conductor at the receptacle requires a low resistance measurement that is
not affected by the presence of AC voltage.
dwayne
Dwayne Reid <dwayner@p...>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice (780) 487-6397 fax
Celebrating 16 years of Engineering Innovation (1984 - 2000)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to this email address.
This message neither grants consent to receive unsolicited
commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial email.
say. The megger is only one way. There are others, but the 3 led device is
NOT one of them. If the neutral and ground are tied together anywhere but at
the entrance panel, the 3 led device will show that the outlet is good even
though there is still the potential for ground loops that can cause
problems. (I don't write any better than I talk.;-)) (At least I think
that this is what I wanted to say the first time.)
Dan
Original Message
From: Dwayne Reid [noparse]/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=sR0wMjMHJM9neCeNWiPMx-y8WZ_s-lXUl3sZKYe0bl6IE7_7Is5pc3XrJSyRp602h5JTcBCWg952U_KOnkWy9w]dwayner@p...[/url
Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2000 12:43 PM
To: basicstamps@egroups.com
Subject: RE: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] off topic
At 09:19 AM 5/4/00 -0600, Sherman, Dan wrote:
>I feel that I have to jump in here. I agree with all that has been said
BUT
>only by using a megger can you be truly sure that the neutral and ground
>have NOT been bonded together at some point. The 3 led device only sees
that
>some wire that eventually goes to ground is connected to the ground screw.
>If someone at sometime at some point (other than the main panel) on your
>system , had tied the neutral and ground together, then you don't have a
>'good' ground and will be subject to problems with "transients" or "sneak
>currents".
I fail to see your reasoning. In fact, why use a Megger at all? A Megger
is used to measure HIGH resistance values, not low (although modern units
can measure low resistance values). But a standard Megger (like the
original crank handle units) measures leakage and insulation resistance
values.
The neutral and ground wires are SUPPOSED to be connected together, but
only at the main disconnect panel (the service entrance). The problem I
was alluding to was where someone might have faked a grounded outlet in a
location with only two conductor wiring by connecting the neutral wire to
the ground terminal of the receptacle. Don't laugh - I have come across
this several times.
The Canadian Electrical Code (and its US counterpart - the National
Electrical Code) require that the incoming neutral be bonded to both the
casing of the meter socket as well as the main disconnect panel. These are
in turn bonded together and to Earth ground.
The bottom line, however, is that checking the quality of the ground
conductor at the receptacle requires a low resistance measurement that is
not affected by the presence of AC voltage.
dwayne
Dwayne Reid <dwayner@p...>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice (780) 487-6397 fax
Celebrating 16 years of Engineering Innovation (1984 - 2000)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to this email address.
This message neither grants consent to receive unsolicited
commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial email.
fire station on an Air Force base. To demo the circuit from the black hot
ac to the center (green) grounding wire with a lightbulb at the AC outlet,
nothing happened. Low and behold the safety wire was never installed
throughout the recently completed building. Talk about sparks flying and I
don't mean electrical..... ==Mac==
SNIP
SNIP
SNIP
SNIP
>The neutral and ground wires are SUPPOSED to be connected together, but
>only at the main disconnect panel (the service entrance). The problem I
>was alluding to was where someone might have faked a grounded outlet in a
>location with only two conductor wiring by connecting the neutral wire to
>the ground terminal of the receptacle. Don't laugh - I have come across
>this several times.
SNIP
SNIP
SNIP
SNIP
what I'm hoping to figure out is whether or not my "ESD" safe Iron and work
mat
are plugged into an outlet which will make them happy (providing a circuit
to dissipate).
It sounds as if there are two thoughts, one being is it grounded properly,
the other is it grounded at all?
for my purposes, how can I be sure my soldering iron isn't zapping my IC's?
Thanks,
steve
>thanks to all for the comments,
>
>what I'm hoping to figure out is whether or not my "ESD" safe Iron and work
>mat
>are plugged into an outlet which will make them happy (providing a circuit
>to dissipate).
>
>It sounds as if there are two thoughts, one being is it grounded properly,
>the other is it grounded at all?
>
>for my purposes, how can I be sure my soldering iron isn't zapping my IC's?
>
>Thanks,
>
>steve
The little 3 light tester should be adequate for that purpose. The more
complicated method I mentioned simply lets you know how good that ground
is. This would be important if you were relying upon that ground for noise
reduction or for handling fault currents.
But it sounds like all you really need to do is ensure that the tip of the
iron does not have a lot of voltage on it caused by leakage currents from
the heating element or static electricity. The little tester will show if
there is a ground path of some nature there - that's what you are looking for.
dwayne
Dwayne Reid <dwayner@p...>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice (780) 487-6397 fax
Celebrating 16 years of Engineering Innovation (1984 - 2000)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to this email address.
This message neither grants consent to receive unsolicited
commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial email.
switch gear we put the megger on them. The megger tells us the wires are
not shorted to earth gound , to each other, or to the grounded conductor
(if there is one). That way when we energize them they don't go BOOM.
If you take a Vol-Con or Wiggy (voltage meter with lites and inductive coil
that vibrates when 120vac is applied) and hook probes to the nuetral (white)
and ground (green) there shouldn't be any voltage. I have found alot
of residental electrical systems are not hooked up correctly.
Another way is to put a multimeter on the gound and nuetral, if it shows
a couple volts or so, you know they are connected somewhere other
than the service enterance.
Fixing this is another story. You must locate and inspect every splice
in the house.
The thing that gets me is the inspectors never check for this kind of
problem. Your house could pass inspection with flying colors, but
not be wired correctly at all.
Meggers are expensive and many people just don't have one laying
around.
Isolated ground outlets (orange with green triangle) help out with
this problem. Their a whole nother story.
Also - be careful when checking or testing 120VAC
It has been know to jump out and bite people.
kevink
thanks, that makes sense
Steve
At 09:29 AM 05/05/2000 -0600, you wrote:
>At 08:04 PM 5/4/00 -0500, sargent@s... wrote:
>>thanks to all for the comments,
>>
>>what I'm hoping to figure out is whether or not my "ESD" safe Iron and work
>>mat
>>are plugged into an outlet which will make them happy (providing a circuit
>>to dissipate).
>>
>>It sounds as if there are two thoughts, one being is it grounded properly,
>>the other is it grounded at all?
>>
>>for my purposes, how can I be sure my soldering iron isn't zapping my IC's?
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>steve
>
>The little 3 light tester should be adequate for that purpose. The more
>complicated method I mentioned simply lets you know how good that ground
>is. This would be important if you were relying upon that ground for noise
>reduction or for handling fault currents.
>
>But it sounds like all you really need to do is ensure that the tip of the
>iron does not have a lot of voltage on it caused by leakage currents from
>the heating element or static electricity. The little tester will show if
>there is a ground path of some nature there - that's what you are looking
for.
>
>dwayne
>
>
>
>Dwayne Reid <dwayner@p...>
>Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd Edmonton, AB, CANADA
>(780) 489-3199 voice (780) 487-6397 fax
>
>Celebrating 16 years of Engineering Innovation (1984 - 2000)
>
>* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to this email address.
>This message neither grants consent to receive unsolicited
>commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial email.
>
>
>
>
me.
When i turned on my computer this evening and started Interner Explorer 5,
I found that my start page had been changed, from www.google.com
to www.sureseeker.com
It makes me nervous that this was done automatically somehow?
anyone ever run into this before?
google has been my start page for over a year, then magically, it was changed?
Steve
p.s. I'm the only user of my computer, then again, maybe i just answered my
own question, someone broke into my house to change my internet preferences?
all..........
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0011/earthlights_dmsp.jpg
A larger version of the photo, 600K at
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0011/earthlights_dmsp_big.jpg
happy holidays,
Steve
Original Message
From: sargent@s... [noparse]/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=Bcc6S1_bkg4ASv0mOvfGP6RYgMviU2Jb8aQIJvDxLH_um0YRQDqkPowuNXUjmW-1PI7mRcoFN6gBTYU]sargent@s...[/url
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 10:38 PM
To: basicstamps@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] off topic
I ran across an interesting photo today. I thought being the holidays and
all..........
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0011/earthlights_dmsp.jpg
A larger version of the photo, 600K at
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0011/earthlights_dmsp_big.jpg
happy holidays,
Steve
just trying to connect two computers Using win 98 and two network
cards. Please contact me off list.
lgaminde@T...
It's pretty simple really. You need a cable from each computer's
network card to a "hub" a five or six port is probably the smallest you
can get. They are cheap, especially used. Be nice if you could find one
that would connect to your printer, other wise it will reside on one or
the other computer's parallel port. Make sure you have the right drivers
for your network cards. Latest ones are generally available at
driver.com or the manufacture web site. Pick cables they will connect
your cards to the hub you chose. I would recommend 100 MHZ cards
although 10 MHZ will work in a home environment, long as you don't have
to transfer files too large (> 10 mb). Make sure the speed of your hub
will match your network cards. Windows ME has a wizard that will set up
the software for you, if that is an option and if not read the doc's on
networking in the windows 98 help files.
Maybe you can locate a software junkie that can help you with the
software set up, once the above hardware is connected.
Hope this helps,
Leroy
Larry Gaminde wrote:
>
> This is off topic! If anyone is familiar with networking? I'm
> just trying to connect two computers Using win 98 and two network
> cards. Please contact me off list.
>
> lgaminde@T...
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and Body
of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
If the distance between PC's isn't to far (less than 50 feet) then you
don't even need the hub in place. Connect directly from network card to
network card using a crossover cable - it has to be a crossover cable in
order to go directly from network card to network card. Otherwise go with
Leroy's advice and use the hub with straight-through cables.
Tim Medema
At 01:32 PM 2/25/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>Dear Larry,
>
>It's pretty simple really. You need a cable from each computer's
>network card to a "hub" a five or six port is probably the smallest you
>can get. They are cheap, especially used. Be nice if you could find one
>that would connect to your printer, other wise it will reside on one or
>the other computer's parallel port. Make sure you have the right drivers
>for your network cards. Latest ones are generally available at
>driver.com or the manufacture web site. Pick cables they will connect
>your cards to the hub you chose. I would recommend 100 MHZ cards
>although 10 MHZ will work in a home environment, long as you don't have
>to transfer files too large (> 10 mb). Make sure the speed of your hub
>will match your network cards. Windows ME has a wizard that will set up
>the software for you, if that is an option and if not read the doc's on
>networking in the windows 98 help files.
>
>Maybe you can locate a software junkie that can help you with the
>software set up, once the above hardware is connected.
>
>Hope this helps,
>
>Leroy
>
>Larry Gaminde wrote:
> >
> > This is off topic! If anyone is familiar with networking? I'm
> > just trying to connect two computers Using win 98 and two network
> > cards. Please contact me off list.
> >
> > lgaminde@T...
> >
> > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject
> and Body of the message will be ignored.
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
>Body of the message will be ignored.
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/