We are not certain, yet. We've got to look at this carefully and identify the minimum components needed on a module so that it could be useful in production applications. The FLiP includes a fair amount of other goodies that might be best placed on a carrier PCB (or not used at all).
@"Ken Gracey" Any teasers as to how the above-mentioned “Parallax P2 Module” will be different than the 64000-ES?
Here's a mix of goals and features, albeit briefly presented because I have to get back to webinar planning and preparing a promotional e-mail for Tuesday morning.
- Moves layout-critical placement to a small footprint, alleviating challenges for designers
- Designed for small-scale production purposes, fitting in a socket or into a header
- Includes only the core parts needed for the P2 to operate (if the extra RAM is warranted, maybe we make a second module) - likely excluding USB parts
- Accompanying carrier PCB for quick use and demo (maybe this includes USB stuff)
- Includes reasonable margin for Parallax, low quantity cost for customers ($50 alone, maybe $20 in 100s?)
- Marketing theme that makes people want to have it (we're all subject to some marketing lure, aren't we?), either through naming or specific support (i.e., the P2 MicroPython module or P2 Spin Module)
- Design considerations factor in our educational program and possible use
But it doesn't matter what I think at this point, as these ideas are the only ones I've envisioned. What matters is that our customers [and the many new ones we've yet to meet] want to buy what we make. This means we have some research to properly form this product.
I also don't want it to trample on P2D2 with a competitive product but support P2D2 with visibility. It's scheduled to be featured in a future newsletter, for example. It has been our desire that others start making tools and PCBs, but the Parallax business success will necessitate one or two long-lasting Parallax designs. We must be able to support hobby/education/low-volume commercial while customers begin to plan their products. Don't expect a series of short-lived P2 PCB designs from us this time; we hope to get it right with each product (i.e., the FLiP came out many years after we introduced the P1).
I welcome a thread on this subject, too. It would help us learn about what specific needs exist and how we might shape this product concept.
Ken, I'm not pushing.....But can you let me/us know what the production selling price of the P2 chip will be ?
I have one product for sure that will use the P2, and a couple more as a maybe (depending on the price).
I realize you may not know this until the production chips arrive, but if you know any sooner, I could get the ball rolling sooner.
Ken, I'm not pushing.....But can you let me/us know what the production selling price of the P2 chip will be ?
I have one product for sure that will use the P2, and a couple more as a maybe (depending on the price).
I realize you may not know this until the production chips arrive, but if you know any sooner, I could get the ball rolling sooner.
Thanks,
Bean
Hey Bean! Happy to be pushed, as we have many big and little things to accomplish and each of them goes onto a task list managed by Stephanie until we can resolve them formally and publicly.
Chip and team have spoken about it quite a bit. We envision a fairly "flat" pricing curve where the low-quantity prices (5-10) aren't a whole lot different than the volume price (1K units). Beyond 1K, there likely won't be much of a discount. This pricing model reflects a couple of likely realities:
(1) We're serving an American/European inventor's market
(2) Products using the P2 are actually fairly expensive themselves (P1 products are from the hundreds to tens of thousands of dollars)
(3) High-volume applications often seek the cheapest solution possible (not likely Parallax);
(4) We have no semiconductor fab and must pay a higher cost; and
(5) There's a lower-volume fit where we will succeed.
Would you agree with these premises?
Maybe $14.95 for one (MSL3 packaging costs are a fixed cost of $3 for us)
Maybe $12.50 for 10 on up to some quantity
Maybe $10.00 for 1K
Some customers have told us this is too low and don't care about the price. Some care excessively about cost but have unreasonable comparisons in their minds.
We could set prices anytime we make the time to formalize them. I would first like to think about having fixed quantities pre-packaged (like kits of 4, 10) so we can encourage customers to pick one of these numbers. This would enable us to pre-pack in our kitting/sealing operation in sets of 100 and not incur the fixed packing expense of single orders involving 3, 6, 7, 8, or 9 units, one at a time. But welcome your thoughts here.
Ken Gracey
P.S. Big companies have different ways of doing this, I suppose. We're mom and pop by comparison. The big unknown for us is the quantity to be consumed. We're going to need a killer application and some viral uptake. Excellent tools, a couple of languages and wonderful tutorials.
The accomplishment of P2 Production Approval should be front and centre on the Parallax website home page but when I last checked... it wasn't. Marketing will be critical. No matter how good it is the P2 will not sell itself.
I see that, as of right now, there are 49 ES boards still available but there is a limit of one per customer. When will that limitation be removed so I can buy another one?
The accomplishment of P2 Production Approval should be front and centre on the Parallax website home page but when I last checked... it wasn't. Marketing will be critical. No matter how good it is the P2 will not sell itself.
I see that, as of right now, there are 49 ES boards still available but there is a limit of one per customer. When will that limitation be removed so I can buy another one?
We're in Early Adopter mode for a while, Sandy. With more marketing, we could quickly sell all of our P2 boards and many more but we will have many upset customers who are requesting tutorials, Spin2 compiler, MicroPython, and other hardware boards. It would be a messy launch. While I love your thinking, this is a metered situation for the time being. As our support capability with P2 increases, you'll see it take a more dominant presence on our home page.
To move forward, we need more qualified early adopters. This means we have to spread the P2 ES boards across as many people as possible. This will speed the use of the software tools, help us create objects/libraries, and bring the P2 front and center.
This approach also limits how many P2 ES boards you can get. Once we've got a bit of confidence that most people have got their first board, we'll allow a second round of purchasing. Some customers might have special circumstances - like a production product planned, two engineers already working, etc. You've been with us for a long time and might fall into this category. If that's you, contact me offline and we'll ship you another board.
Maybe $14.95 for one (MSL3 packaging costs are a fixed cost of $3 for us)
Maybe $12.50 for 10 on up to some quantity
Maybe $10.00 for 1K
Ken, you are right on the money. I told my business partners that I thought they would be about $15 at some quantity. If that quantity is 1 that is fantastic.
Thank you for the info. I'm sure others had the same question but weren't as tackless as me to ask...
Bean
P.S. Not sure about a price break at only 10 pcs. I heard there are 96 (I think) in a tray. That might be a better quantity for a price break (less handling).
@"Ken Gracey" That pricing hits the sweet spot for me. This is basically what I had been guessing (and guestimating for budgetary purposes with a client) for the last year. Bless yer heart! Great minds think alike!
Thank you for the info. I'm sure others had the same question but weren't as tackless as me to ask...
We want to know what people think, plain and simple. It helps us get to the right place a whole lot faster than me being a mumbling marketing idiot trying to guess what's right for people. The crowd knows.
I would like to add my congratulations on achieving your P2 production.
The start-up process of the P2 as documented in these forums is possibly unique in the tech world, and it is worthy of its own production as a documentary, article or case-study.
Ken, for reference... I just designed my first product with a Flip instead of a Quickstart. And while I'm OK with pins and resources it is a tight squeeze for RAM to do all the things I want to do, even though it's basically a dumb Ethernet to other stuff breakout. (Basic specs: ENC28J60, IIC, and 12 serial ports. Yes, twelve.) I'm fitting it in P1 but it would be a hell of a lot easier with P2.
Our market for this is ultimately a few thousand systems. We will probably sell just a few next year to establish our presence in this very limited market. Our competitor charges over $100K, plus ongoing similar charges every year. We are planning to charge $30K, once. We think we might have a slight competitive advantage :-)
This project would be very difficult, if possible at all, for us without P1. There is nothing else on the market that can replace it -- except P2. We could totes afford $25 per chip, as I believe the P1 cost when it was first introduced. Just sayin'.
Such a great milestone could not happen without Chip genius, Ken and the whole Parallax team hard working, trully supporting him and every one of us, forum members, enabling us to share our thoughts and ideas.
Being here, able to learn and share, has being such a fantastic experience.
Ken, I'm not pushing.....But can you let me/us know what the production selling price of the P2 chip will be ?
I have one product for sure that will use the P2, and a couple more as a maybe (depending on the price).
I realize you may not know this until the production chips arrive, but if you know any sooner, I could get the ball rolling sooner.
Thanks,
Bean
Hey Bean! Happy to be pushed, as we have many big and little things to accomplish and each of them goes onto a task list managed by Stephanie until we can resolve them formally and publicly.
Chip and team have spoken about it quite a bit. We envision a fairly "flat" pricing curve where the low-quantity prices (5-10) aren't a whole lot different than the volume price (1K units). Beyond 1K, there likely won't be much of a discount. This pricing model reflects a couple of likely realities:
(1) We're serving an American/European inventor's market
(2) Products using the P2 are actually fairly expensive themselves (P1 products are from the hundreds to tens of thousands of dollars)
(3) High-volume applications often seek the cheapest solution possible (not likely Parallax);
(4) We have no semiconductor fab and must pay a higher cost; and
(5) There's a lower-volume fit where we will succeed.
Would you agree with these premises?
Maybe $14.95 for one (MSL3 packaging costs are a fixed cost of $3 for us)
Maybe $12.50 for 10 on up to some quantity
Maybe $10.00 for 1K
Some customers have told us this is too low and don't care about the price. Some care excessively about cost but have unreasonable comparisons in their minds.
We could set prices anytime we make the time to formalize them. I would first like to think about having fixed quantities pre-packaged (like kits of 4, 10) so we can encourage customers to pick one of these numbers. This would enable us to pre-pack in our kitting/sealing operation in sets of 100 and not incur the fixed packing expense of single orders involving 3, 6, 7, 8, or 9 units, one at a time. But welcome your thoughts here.
Ken Gracey
P.S. Big companies have different ways of doing this, I suppose. We're mom and pop by comparison. The big unknown for us is the quantity to be consumed. We're going to need a killer application and some viral uptake. Excellent tools, a couple of languages and wonderful tutorials.
Ken, that prices sounds very interesting, specially $12.50 for 10 on up.
Me too. That may end up being a pretty hot item. I think of it like the DIP-40 version of P1. I have a couple of those, and they are still my favorite. Drop onto breadboard wire up a basic circuit and go!
IMHO, something like that is needed to maximize P2 potential adoption.
Me too. That may end up being a pretty hot item. I think of it like the DIP-40 version of P1. I have a couple of those, and they are still my favorite. Drop onto breadboard wire up a basic circuit and go!
IMHO, something like that is needed to maximize P2 potential adoption.
Market feedback from the potatohead. Is it important to you to "drop a P2 module into a breadboard" even if it becomes inordinately long due to the number of I/Os? This is the first question to be answered.
How would you feel about featureless, low-cost "carrier" boards that can hold the module and have the USB circuitry on them and are cheap enough to be allocated to projects and messing around with soldering irons?
Me too. That may end up being a pretty hot item. I think of it like the DIP-40 version of P1. I have a couple of those, and they are still my favorite. Drop onto breadboard wire up a basic circuit and go!
IMHO, something like that is needed to maximize P2 potential adoption.
Market feedback from the potatohead. Is it important to you to "drop a P2 module into a breadboard" even if it becomes inordinately long due to the number of I/Os? This is the first question to be answered.
How would you feel about featureless, low-cost "carrier" boards that can hold the module and have the USB circuitry on them and are cheap enough to be allocated to projects and messing around with soldering irons?
Ken
There were a few 64 pin dips before the switch to smd packaging so I think a 64 pin dip carrier board is a good idea if you take advantage of the extra width for additional inputs at the ends of the board.
I have been thinking that for a low-pin-count module, we could double up the port A and port B pins, tying them together. That would allow us to have scope input for every single pin, making it kind of a handy experimenter module with reduced pins.
In retrospect, I should have separated the ADC circuit in each pin and made it independent of modes, so that it could always operate, no matter what else was going on. Next time around, that is what I will do. Also, instead of putting a single integrator in the ADC, I will put in 15, so that it can report back 4 bits on each clock.
Comments
We are not certain, yet. We've got to look at this carefully and identify the minimum components needed on a module so that it could be useful in production applications. The FLiP includes a fair amount of other goodies that might be best placed on a carrier PCB (or not used at all).
We will be asking everybody this question soon.
Ken Gracey
Here's a mix of goals and features, albeit briefly presented because I have to get back to webinar planning and preparing a promotional e-mail for Tuesday morning.
- Moves layout-critical placement to a small footprint, alleviating challenges for designers
- Designed for small-scale production purposes, fitting in a socket or into a header
- Includes only the core parts needed for the P2 to operate (if the extra RAM is warranted, maybe we make a second module) - likely excluding USB parts
- Accompanying carrier PCB for quick use and demo (maybe this includes USB stuff)
- Includes reasonable margin for Parallax, low quantity cost for customers ($50 alone, maybe $20 in 100s?)
- Marketing theme that makes people want to have it (we're all subject to some marketing lure, aren't we?), either through naming or specific support (i.e., the P2 MicroPython module or P2 Spin Module)
- Design considerations factor in our educational program and possible use
But it doesn't matter what I think at this point, as these ideas are the only ones I've envisioned. What matters is that our customers [and the many new ones we've yet to meet] want to buy what we make. This means we have some research to properly form this product.
I also don't want it to trample on P2D2 with a competitive product but support P2D2 with visibility. It's scheduled to be featured in a future newsletter, for example. It has been our desire that others start making tools and PCBs, but the Parallax business success will necessitate one or two long-lasting Parallax designs. We must be able to support hobby/education/low-volume commercial while customers begin to plan their products. Don't expect a series of short-lived P2 PCB designs from us this time; we hope to get it right with each product (i.e., the FLiP came out many years after we introduced the P1).
I welcome a thread on this subject, too. It would help us learn about what specific needs exist and how we might shape this product concept.
Ken Gracey
Ken, I'm not pushing.....But can you let me/us know what the production selling price of the P2 chip will be ?
I have one product for sure that will use the P2, and a couple more as a maybe (depending on the price).
I realize you may not know this until the production chips arrive, but if you know any sooner, I could get the ball rolling sooner.
Thanks,
Bean
https://media.tenor.com/images/ef38e40a59fb993574f30c6c82de7e63/tenor.gif
Hey Bean! Happy to be pushed, as we have many big and little things to accomplish and each of them goes onto a task list managed by Stephanie until we can resolve them formally and publicly.
Chip and team have spoken about it quite a bit. We envision a fairly "flat" pricing curve where the low-quantity prices (5-10) aren't a whole lot different than the volume price (1K units). Beyond 1K, there likely won't be much of a discount. This pricing model reflects a couple of likely realities:
(1) We're serving an American/European inventor's market
(2) Products using the P2 are actually fairly expensive themselves (P1 products are from the hundreds to tens of thousands of dollars)
(3) High-volume applications often seek the cheapest solution possible (not likely Parallax);
(4) We have no semiconductor fab and must pay a higher cost; and
(5) There's a lower-volume fit where we will succeed.
Would you agree with these premises?
Maybe $14.95 for one (MSL3 packaging costs are a fixed cost of $3 for us)
Maybe $12.50 for 10 on up to some quantity
Maybe $10.00 for 1K
Some customers have told us this is too low and don't care about the price. Some care excessively about cost but have unreasonable comparisons in their minds.
We could set prices anytime we make the time to formalize them. I would first like to think about having fixed quantities pre-packaged (like kits of 4, 10) so we can encourage customers to pick one of these numbers. This would enable us to pre-pack in our kitting/sealing operation in sets of 100 and not incur the fixed packing expense of single orders involving 3, 6, 7, 8, or 9 units, one at a time. But welcome your thoughts here.
Ken Gracey
P.S. Big companies have different ways of doing this, I suppose. We're mom and pop by comparison. The big unknown for us is the quantity to be consumed. We're going to need a killer application and some viral uptake. Excellent tools, a couple of languages and wonderful tutorials.
I see that, as of right now, there are 49 ES boards still available but there is a limit of one per customer. When will that limitation be removed so I can buy another one?
We're in Early Adopter mode for a while, Sandy. With more marketing, we could quickly sell all of our P2 boards and many more but we will have many upset customers who are requesting tutorials, Spin2 compiler, MicroPython, and other hardware boards. It would be a messy launch. While I love your thinking, this is a metered situation for the time being. As our support capability with P2 increases, you'll see it take a more dominant presence on our home page.
To move forward, we need more qualified early adopters. This means we have to spread the P2 ES boards across as many people as possible. This will speed the use of the software tools, help us create objects/libraries, and bring the P2 front and center.
This approach also limits how many P2 ES boards you can get. Once we've got a bit of confidence that most people have got their first board, we'll allow a second round of purchasing. Some customers might have special circumstances - like a production product planned, two engineers already working, etc. You've been with us for a long time and might fall into this category. If that's you, contact me offline and we'll ship you another board.
Does this approach seem reasonable to you?
Thanks,
Ken Gracey
Ken, you are right on the money. I told my business partners that I thought they would be about $15 at some quantity. If that quantity is 1 that is fantastic.
Thank you for the info. I'm sure others had the same question but weren't as tackless as me to ask...
Bean
P.S. Not sure about a price break at only 10 pcs. I heard there are 96 (I think) in a tray. That might be a better quantity for a price break (less handling).
We want to know what people think, plain and simple. It helps us get to the right place a whole lot faster than me being a mumbling marketing idiot trying to guess what's right for people. The crowd knows.
I'll check tray quantities, too.
Ken Gracey
The start-up process of the P2 as documented in these forums is possibly unique in the tech world, and it is worthy of its own production as a documentary, article or case-study.
Our market for this is ultimately a few thousand systems. We will probably sell just a few next year to establish our presence in this very limited market. Our competitor charges over $100K, plus ongoing similar charges every year. We are planning to charge $30K, once. We think we might have a slight competitive advantage :-)
This project would be very difficult, if possible at all, for us without P1. There is nothing else on the market that can replace it -- except P2. We could totes afford $25 per chip, as I believe the P1 cost when it was first introduced. Just sayin'.
congrats on the big news!
Such a great milestone could not happen without Chip genius, Ken and the whole Parallax team hard working, trully supporting him and every one of us, forum members, enabling us to share our thoughts and ideas.
Being here, able to learn and share, has being such a fantastic experience.
An investment in Parallax PRODUCTS ...
or can we invest in PARALLAX ??? ;-)
p.s.: congrats as well -
the "never ending story" finally there
- but not at the end - NO
- at the BEGINNING of a great future
Ken, that prices sounds very interesting, specially $12.50 for 10 on up.
ide's. Will be a fun winter here in the mountains!
I was reacting to Ken's post that mentioned a "Parallax P2 Module". I was hoping for maybe some more information about that....
IMHO, something like that is needed to maximize P2 potential adoption.
Market feedback from the potatohead. Is it important to you to "drop a P2 module into a breadboard" even if it becomes inordinately long due to the number of I/Os? This is the first question to be answered.
How would you feel about featureless, low-cost "carrier" boards that can hold the module and have the USB circuitry on them and are cheap enough to be allocated to projects and messing around with soldering irons?
Ken
There were a few 64 pin dips before the switch to smd packaging so I think a 64 pin dip carrier board is a good idea if you take advantage of the extra width for additional inputs at the ends of the board.