More importantly, can we start giving you our money now???
I don't read the forums frequently because I'm busy hustling the schools to place orders. But I was somehow summoned to read this post!
Soon, we shall take your money. I think the earliest we will be able to take your money will be the last week of October. Not a day goes by where I don't think about taking your money in exchange for P2 products. I even started Chip's birthday (today) with a 6:30 a.m. call on the subject. Something like "hey Chip, do you think we will sell many P2 Eval Boards considering the lack of programming tools? - you need to get Spin 2 done already!"
What are we going to do with all this money? Where should I start? Our building needs a new roof, our staff deserves raises, we need a new van, our PnP line needs some upgrades. We will owe ON a significant amount of money.
Truthfully, at this stage, we run the business as if the P2 ship will never leave the stormy seas and enter port to deliver the goods. But if the boat comes in, we'll be ready to unload it.
It's almost like I asked Seairth to ask this question. Thanks for the encouragement, Seairth! Thank you to all of you for being interested in the P2 and with interest in sending Parallax your money.
Something like "hey Chip, do you think we will sell many P2 Eval Boards considering the lack of programming tools? - you need to get Spin 2 done already!"
...
Ken Gracey
Ken,
I know you're being a bit whimsical, but do take a look at what Eric Smith @ersmith has created in terms of his FlexGUI package: https://github.com/totalspectrum/flexgui/releases/latest
FlexGUI is a simple IDE for programming the Parallax Propeller2 and/or Propeller1. It is a front end for the fastspin compiler, which can compile Spin, BASIC, PASM, or C code to Propeller1 or 2 assembly language.
Plus Catalina C by @RossH is back!!! https://sourceforge.net/projects/catalina-c/
plus there's some other GCC stuff in progress and a Risc-V VM that runs C++... lots of C activity.
About these P2 chips. What is the price expectation our customers have for low quantities of P2 engineering sample chips?
$5, 10, 15, 20 each?
The freight likely dominates anyway, so I think it's useful to price them in the ballpark of what final production parts will be, that way, users/managers get a useful price signal too.
eg $5 is likely to be below a practical P2 selling price, so not much point signaling that, and $20 is probably above, so could also signal wrong too...
Of more interest for new design wins, could be getting a compact and low cost eval board into the lineup.
eg SiLabs have just released EFM8BB1LCK, for just over US$6
Peter's P2D2R2 would be the closest P2 board to that (Or, the P2D2Pi pinout variant I prefer (otherwise same circuit)), & I have code for the EFM8UB3 bridge mcu that uses, that shaves a little more off the BOM.
The Pi pinout lets users 'drop-onto' the board, useful Pi cards like this new 128x64 OLED
Lets say development started in 2006, and most of these chips will sell in 2020, $1 per year tallies to $15
Besides, always answer option C) if unsure
Agreed- I'd been thinking around the $12-$16 mark too. The higher end seems important (and traditional) to ensure first-batch supply meets demand, and to allow for distribution.
Ken,
I think for engineering samples the price should be a little higher, and I would recommend no one actually use them in shipped products.
They can use them for designing products that will ship once actual production chips are available.
I also think that ersmiths compiler stuff is something you should get behind. Spin2 is not going to be as relevant for P2 as Spin was for the P1. I'd even go so far as to say most people will not use Spin2 for coding the P2. I know there are folks here that don't like to hear that (and may even cry foul here), but I think it's the truth you need to accept. C/C++, Python, and to a point BASIC will see more use on P2 (of course with PASM mixed in as needed for drivers).
Ken: What @ersmith has done with FlexGUI will amaze you. Its the right mix of simplicity, flexibility, and capability. I have no idea when/if that guy sleeps...
On pricing for the P2, $15 seems to be the limit in my world. If you go much higher, other chips may get the nod. But for engineering samples I’d definitely pay more.
Maybe set the price the same as what you expect for the production chips?
This is the thought I've had. Even though we'll label these as engineering samples and their costs are probably 2x what we'll pay for production chips, we will be establishing some low-volume prices in the minds of developers everywhere when a price is posted. It'd be a bad sales plan to price the engineering samples higher than production chips, in low volume. We made that mistake with P1. Unfortunately, this also means we don't make any gross profit selling the engineering samples. Throw in our new free shipping policy and we might be paying customers to start with the P2 if they buy a single unit.
As for the price, the numbers mentioned above are about what we have in mind.
It is helpful for us for all of you to have an open window into Parallax. The collective wisdom of handling these non-engineering details tends to lead to the right solution.
Ken, Working on a start up with a friend has taken me away from this stuff a little more than I would like.
I fired up my rev a board to have a play.
Here are some perspective for you all:
When we compare this to the 1st propeller, and what was available for that chip, we have a plethora of tools and documentation.
You want my advice Ken? Sell it unabashedly. There's more than enough here to get going with.
Everyone involved worked really hard for over a decade. This is a super good product and. Promote it and the community work that's going on right now. If you ask me, this is one hell of a scene to get involved with. A lot of good things are going to happen.
Ken, Working on a start up with a friend has taken me away from this stuff a little more than I would like.
I fired up my rev a board to have a play.
Here are some perspective for you all:
When we compare this to the 1st propeller, and what was available for that chip, we have a plethora of tools and documentation.
You want my advice Ken? Sell it unabashedly. There's more than enough here to get going with.
Everyone involved worked really hard for over a decade. This is a super good product and. Promote it and the community work that's going on right now. If you ask me, this is one hell of a scene to get involved with. A lot of good things are going to happen.
This is what we want to do, too. We need some help internally figuring out how to set up the tools so we can offer some level of support. I don't know where to find Eric's tools and how to set them up. We need to locate, inventory and start using the available tools. We will put up pages for these tools on p2.parallax.com. I need some links to get started. If I can't do it, we're going to be stuck telling others what to do.
I was just wondering if Chip is done working on the P2 Verilog...
Sounds like he might be...
I imagine it has been a struggle for Eric to make tools for a P2 that's a moving target...
A change to P2 Verilog means $80,000 among other things. Chip says it looks "all good" and there's nothing suggesting we need a change to P2 Verilog at this stage.
First, @Chip: happy birthday 🎂😄
Second: pricing... please dont‘t forget taxes. Therefore $10 for a single chip. $5 for a 50units batch. In between $8 for a 10units batch.
First, @Chip: happy birthday 🎂😄
Second: pricing... please dont‘t forget taxes. Therefore $10 for a single chip. $5 for a 50units batch. In between $8 for a 10units batch.
Taxes, tariffs, tips - all the additional expenses our customers need to pay for electronics these days.
Shipping will be free. Did you all know that effective a day ago that Parallax offers free USPS (<$200 orders) and UPS Ground (>$200 orders) for domestic addresses?
This means if you order a single P2 engineering sample at $12.50 each we actually lose money. Might need to rethink the lower threshold of this new promotion
Ken, hopefully you will not be selling the v2 eval board at a loss! If you are doing that (or just breaking even), I'd be willing to pay a premium for a version with the Gracey Brothers' signature on the bottom! I expect those boards to be collector's items, one day!
Maybe set the price the same as what you expect for the production chips?
This is the thought I've had. Even though we'll label these as engineering samples and their costs are probably 2x what we'll pay for production chips, we will be establishing some low-volume prices in the minds of developers everywhere when a price is posted. It'd be a bad sales plan to price the engineering samples higher than production chips, in low volume. We made that mistake with P1. Unfortunately, this also means we don't make any gross profit selling the engineering samples. Throw in our new free shipping policy and we might be paying customers to start with the P2 if they buy a single unit.
As for the price, the numbers mentioned above are about what we have in mind.
It is helpful for us for all of you to have an open window into Parallax. The collective wisdom of handling these non-engineering details tends to lead to the right solution.
Thanks,
Ken Gracey
P1 engineering samples were $20, correct? I remember seeing them at that price. Somehow I missed the part that those were engineering samples. But compared to the Basic Stamp 2, that was a logical sales price.
If there was a price that is higher than the final selling price and obviously not the final selling price, that could work. For example: (final selling price)+$100. (ducks, mmm tomatoes...) But perhaps even that could be a reasonable price in relation to the BS2p at $80. I don't know if there is a price is obviously not the final selling price, that would not also be outrageous. Maybe the ES chips could be sold bundled with some other high margin item. Not unlike the when the Pi Zero first came out.
Water will find its own level, so too will P2 pricing.
But when it comes to selling the P2 through Mouser/Digikey how will this part be described and found so that the specs justifies the price? I know that the P2 has 64 I/O that can have any mix of PWM/ADC/DAC/FREQIN/FREQOUT/MEASUREMENTS/SYNCH/ASYNCH/USB etc etc etc and it is very easy to generate VGA and HDMI but I think that we need a good presentation of that information in tabular form perhaps that can be easily read and understood so that distributors can pass that information on. Maybe I might have a go at doing this myself in much the same way I created a datasheet for the P2.
Ken, hopefully you will not be selling the v2 eval board at a loss! If you are doing that (or just breaking even), I'd be willing to pay a premium for a version with the Gracey Brothers' signature on the bottom! I expect those boards to be collector's items, one day!
Define 'premium'. $100 for a signed, limited edition, P2 board? I'm up for that.
Ken, hopefully you will not be selling the v2 eval board at a loss! If you are doing that (or just breaking even), I'd be willing to pay a premium for a version with the Gracey Brothers' signature on the bottom! I expect those boards to be collector's items, one day!
YES! And I'd be more than happy to pay well over $100 for a signed, numbered le board. I've been meaning to get the accessory kit but ended up dropping a bunch of money on my boe-bot upgrade. Still coding but it sure is cute now.
Comments
I don't read the forums frequently because I'm busy hustling the schools to place orders. But I was somehow summoned to read this post!
Soon, we shall take your money. I think the earliest we will be able to take your money will be the last week of October. Not a day goes by where I don't think about taking your money in exchange for P2 products. I even started Chip's birthday (today) with a 6:30 a.m. call on the subject. Something like "hey Chip, do you think we will sell many P2 Eval Boards considering the lack of programming tools? - you need to get Spin 2 done already!"
What are we going to do with all this money? Where should I start? Our building needs a new roof, our staff deserves raises, we need a new van, our PnP line needs some upgrades. We will owe ON a significant amount of money.
Truthfully, at this stage, we run the business as if the P2 ship will never leave the stormy seas and enter port to deliver the goods. But if the boat comes in, we'll be ready to unload it.
It's almost like I asked Seairth to ask this question. Thanks for the encouragement, Seairth! Thank you to all of you for being interested in the P2 and with interest in sending Parallax your money.
Ken Gracey
About these P2 chips. What is the price expectation our customers have for low quantities of P2 engineering sample chips?
$5, 10, 15, 20 each?
Ken Gracey
Ken,
I know you're being a bit whimsical, but do take a look at what Eric Smith @ersmith has created in terms of his FlexGUI package:
https://github.com/totalspectrum/flexgui/releases/latest
FlexGUI is a simple IDE for programming the Parallax Propeller2 and/or Propeller1. It is a front end for the fastspin compiler, which can compile Spin, BASIC, PASM, or C code to Propeller1 or 2 assembly language.
Plus Catalina C by @RossH is back!!!
https://sourceforge.net/projects/catalina-c/
plus there's some other GCC stuff in progress and a Risc-V VM that runs C++... lots of C activity.
eg $5 is likely to be below a practical P2 selling price, so not much point signaling that, and $20 is probably above, so could also signal wrong too...
Of more interest for new design wins, could be getting a compact and low cost eval board into the lineup.
eg SiLabs have just released EFM8BB1LCK, for just over US$6
Peter's P2D2R2 would be the closest P2 board to that (Or, the P2D2Pi pinout variant I prefer (otherwise same circuit)), & I have code for the EFM8UB3 bridge mcu that uses, that shaves a little more off the BOM.
The Pi pinout lets users 'drop-onto' the board, useful Pi cards like this new 128x64 OLED
Lets say development started in 2006, and most of these chips will sell in 2020, $1 per year tallies to $15
Besides, always answer option C) if unsure
Agreed- I'd been thinking around the $12-$16 mark too. The higher end seems important (and traditional) to ensure first-batch supply meets demand, and to allow for distribution.
I think for engineering samples the price should be a little higher, and I would recommend no one actually use them in shipped products.
They can use them for designing products that will ship once actual production chips are available.
I also think that ersmiths compiler stuff is something you should get behind. Spin2 is not going to be as relevant for P2 as Spin was for the P1. I'd even go so far as to say most people will not use Spin2 for coding the P2. I know there are folks here that don't like to hear that (and may even cry foul here), but I think it's the truth you need to accept. C/C++, Python, and to a point BASIC will see more use on P2 (of course with PASM mixed in as needed for drivers).
On pricing for the P2, $15 seems to be the limit in my world. If you go much higher, other chips may get the nod. But for engineering samples I’d definitely pay more.
This is the thought I've had. Even though we'll label these as engineering samples and their costs are probably 2x what we'll pay for production chips, we will be establishing some low-volume prices in the minds of developers everywhere when a price is posted. It'd be a bad sales plan to price the engineering samples higher than production chips, in low volume. We made that mistake with P1. Unfortunately, this also means we don't make any gross profit selling the engineering samples. Throw in our new free shipping policy and we might be paying customers to start with the P2 if they buy a single unit.
As for the price, the numbers mentioned above are about what we have in mind.
It is helpful for us for all of you to have an open window into Parallax. The collective wisdom of handling these non-engineering details tends to lead to the right solution.
Thanks,
Ken Gracey
Maybe later a board with video connector and USB on it...
I fired up my rev a board to have a play.
Here are some perspective for you all:
When we compare this to the 1st propeller, and what was available for that chip, we have a plethora of tools and documentation.
You want my advice Ken? Sell it unabashedly. There's more than enough here to get going with.
Everyone involved worked really hard for over a decade. This is a super good product and. Promote it and the community work that's going on right now. If you ask me, this is one hell of a scene to get involved with. A lot of good things are going to happen.
This is what we want to do, too. We need some help internally figuring out how to set up the tools so we can offer some level of support. I don't know where to find Eric's tools and how to set them up. We need to locate, inventory and start using the available tools. We will put up pages for these tools on p2.parallax.com. I need some links to get started. If I can't do it, we're going to be stuck telling others what to do.
Ken Gracey
Sounds like he might be...
I imagine it has been a struggle for Eric to make tools for a P2 that's a moving target...
A change to P2 Verilog means $80,000 among other things. Chip says it looks "all good" and there's nothing suggesting we need a change to P2 Verilog at this stage.
Ken Gracey
Here's is the most recent build of ersmith's stuff: https://github.com/totalspectrum/flexgui/releases/tag/v3.9.32
You can browse the github there to find docs and examples and the full source. This does Spin2(ersmith's version of Spin2 that compiles to PASM), BASIC, and C (with some C++ features). It can target both P1 and P2, and you can mix languages.
This thread is the ongoing discussion/feedback/etc. for it: https://forums.parallax.com/discussion/164187/fastspin-compiler-for-p2-assembly-spin-basic-and-c-in-one-compiler
ersmith also did a RISCV emulator for P2, that he used to get MicroPython working, since it can run riscv targetted gcc stuff. You have seen the Micropython thread I am sure. https://forums.parallax.com/discussion/169862/micropython-for-p2
RossH also has Catalina C working for P2 now.
And ntosme2 has been getting propgcc (based on the more recent gcc version of gcc) working for P2, thread here: https://forums.parallax.com/discussion/170420/propgcc-for-p2
Also, there is TAQOZ built in, and there are other tools I'm sure I missed.
Second: pricing... please dont‘t forget taxes. Therefore $10 for a single chip. $5 for a 50units batch. In between $8 for a 10units batch.
Taxes, tariffs, tips - all the additional expenses our customers need to pay for electronics these days.
Shipping will be free. Did you all know that effective a day ago that Parallax offers free USPS (<$200 orders) and UPS Ground (>$200 orders) for domestic addresses?
This means if you order a single P2 engineering sample at $12.50 each we actually lose money. Might need to rethink the lower threshold of this new promotion
Ken Gracey
If there was a price that is higher than the final selling price and obviously not the final selling price, that could work. For example: (final selling price)+$100. (ducks, mmm tomatoes...) But perhaps even that could be a reasonable price in relation to the BS2p at $80. I don't know if there is a price is obviously not the final selling price, that would not also be outrageous. Maybe the ES chips could be sold bundled with some other high margin item. Not unlike the when the Pi Zero first came out.
The best link for this stuff is
https://github.com/totalspectrum/flexgui/releases/
which points to all of the current releases; if you just want to go directly to the latest one (whatever it is) use:
https://github.com/totalspectrum/flexgui/releases/latest/
Here's the thing about the expo. Odds are that travel will be expensive. I'd much rather use that money to buy shiny new P2s.
But when it comes to selling the P2 through Mouser/Digikey how will this part be described and found so that the specs justifies the price? I know that the P2 has 64 I/O that can have any mix of PWM/ADC/DAC/FREQIN/FREQOUT/MEASUREMENTS/SYNCH/ASYNCH/USB etc etc etc and it is very easy to generate VGA and HDMI but I think that we need a good presentation of that information in tabular form perhaps that can be easily read and understood so that distributors can pass that information on. Maybe I might have a go at doing this myself in much the same way I created a datasheet for the P2.
- Power consumption testing - https://forums.parallax.com/discussion/comment/1478835/#Comment_1478835
- Overclocking and sysclock jitter - https://forums.parallax.com/discussion/170534/testing-new-p2-eval-revb-board-with-glob-top-chip/p1
Define 'premium'. $100 for a signed, limited edition, P2 board? I'm up for that.
YES! And I'd be more than happy to pay well over $100 for a signed, numbered le board. I've been meaning to get the accessory kit but ended up dropping a bunch of money on my boe-bot upgrade. Still coding but it sure is cute now.