The problem I found with trying to do any kind of "universal" solution is that it is all very good and well if it were a chip available in DIP as well as SMD, preprogrammed, and available from most suppliers very cheap. Internally with my own designs I don't have any problems with designing my special peripheral micros onto a board and having programming pads/vias/headers to Flash them with etc.
However I was very confused with your post because I think you are confused about this area of technology. I didn't know where to start to reply since the actual statements are incorrect or too open-ended.
I agree that a cheap dip is needed. As this software comes to fruition I will try to have something simple produced as cheaply as possible.
There's no doubt that I've made mistakes. No worries, I'm sure they'll come to light as I try to make these and inevitably fail here and there.
I bought 10 of these to play around with. Part of my pile of tiny christmas presents that I bought for myself this year.
Interesting little break-out board. Even has a 3v3 regulator, not mandatory on N76E003 as it runs just fine on USB-5V, but useful for Rasp-Pi or P1 testing where you want 3v3.
Yup, ought to save me a bunch of time and allow me to keep projects assembled.
I was also thinking of trying to emulate some of the 40xx logic ic. This is probably more of an academic curiosity but I think it will be informative. Would a 40xx that could change function be useful anywhere? (I know that last one's really open ended)
I bought 10 of these to play around with. Part of my pile of tiny christmas presents that I bought for myself this year.
Interesting little break-out board. Even has a 3v3 regulator, not mandatory on N76E003 as it runs just fine on USB-5V, but useful for Rasp-Pi or P1 testing where you want 3v3.
I offered them $2.70 each for an order of 10, very reasonable.
An 8051 can emulate almost any AND/OR/XOR combination, using the Boolean opcodes, but the speed of operation is a key metric when trying that.
Software is always slower than hardware...
That said, one MSI-Logic area where cheap MCUs can push into, is the 4060 Oscillator+Counter type devices.
That 4060 is cheap, but has limited taps - no /2,/4,/8 and max of 2^14.
The N76E003 lacks a Crystal Osc, but the N76E885 does have that.
An 8051 can emulate almost any AND/OR/XOR combination, using the Boolean opcodes, but the speed of operation is a key metric when trying that.
Software is always slower than hardware...
That said, one MSI-Logic area where cheap MCUs can push into, is the 4060 Oscillator+Counter type devices.
That 4060 is cheap, but has limited taps - no /2,/4,/8 and max of 2^14.
The N76E003 lacks a Crystal Osc, but the N76E885 does have that.
That's looks like a neat project, too. The N76E885AT28 emulating a 4060+ could allow for a bigger counter, 2^22 if you allow for 4 control pins?
That's looks like a neat project, too. The N76E885AT28 emulating a 4060+ could allow for a bigger counter, 2^22 if you allow for 4 control pins?
If you want more than one output counting pin, the 8051 does allow SFR INC, including Ports,
so you could run a 2 line interrupt loop, from IDLE of
TimerINT:
INC P0
RETI
that would work for anything < ~500kHz fastest pin period, and give 8 binary toggling pins, & scope just like a counter.
For outputs between 500kHz and fOsc, there is CLOEN & CKDIV, that puts fOsc / (2 * CKDIV) onto a pin. (/1,/2,/4,/6,../510)
For single outputs, Timer0 and Timer1 can toggle pins T0,T1 on overflow, so could go as low as /(2^16*12*510)
The N76E003 PWM has a Binary prescaler, and a 16b reload, and a Timer1 feed option, so I make that a hardware-divider limit of 12*510*2^16*2^16
= quite large, over 2^44 and around 19 days period from 16MHz !
For general sounder/beeper use, you could divide 16MHz CKDIV=10, for a > 522Hz independent T0,T1 toggle, set with 8 bit precision, or 16M with PWM 16b precision to 244Hz ~ 30ppm granularity
Looks like I'm getting great results with the CY62256N connected directly to the flip.
200,000 random byte writes per second
238,095 random byte reads per second
1,159,420 sequential byte reads per second
and that's without a controller for the address.
What do you think of using a W78E052DFG as a controller?
I followed the comments through the asm and as best as I can tell the timing results are correct. (Code attached)
I'd like to know If I've made a mistake, would you mind taking a peek, please?
The CY62256N RAM is capable of running a lot faster.
Any feedback would be appreciated
What do you think of using a W78E052DFG as a controller?
The w78e052d is reasonable, if a little long in the tooth, and not very fast. Better might be N76E616, if you can use TQFP48 package ?
The N78 series have the slower core, than the N76, and no calibrated on-chip Osc.
If you need many simple IO pins in one package, the N76E616 is a better choice.
Nuvoton do have Bootloaders (they call ISP, found in Nuvoton 8051 ISP-ICP Programmer v7.15.zip), & PC-side EXE's, but the ISP code is factory pre-loaded only on some older parts.
N76E616, N76E885 code is in the ZIP file, but I think not factory pre-loaded.
The N76E616AL48 definitely fits the bill. I just ordered a few and I already have a bunch of adapters on the way for various chips.
Trickier, but maybe possible, would be N76E003+SPI_Flash, where code for i2c.24C256 emulation actually reads SPI flash, for much larger code support...
is this a possibility to explore with the N76E616AL48? 1 or more 32MB SPI Flash and 4MB of 16-bit SRAM.
Made some tweaks to the code after reading a lot of old forums posts and I kicked up the speed a good bit on the lower end and a tiny bit on the top end:
294,117 random byte writes per second, up 47%
312,500 random byte reads per second, up 31%
1,194,029 sequential byte reads per second, up 3%
@jmg I found this old thread in which you were a significant contributor. It helped me refine this code
The N76E616AL48 definitely fits the bill. I just ordered a few and I already have a bunch of adapters on the way for various chips.
Trickier, but maybe possible, would be N76E003+SPI_Flash, where code for i2c.24C256 emulation actually reads SPI flash, for much larger code support...
is this a possibility to explore with the N76E616AL48? 1 or more 32MB SPI Flash and 4MB of 16-bit SRAM.
Yes, if you wanted to - however if this is just for experimenting, do not dismiss simply using a second P1 as the RAM controller.
It has less IO than N76E616 (32 vs 46 max) but P1 has a 20MHz opcode rate, (per COG) and can move 8/16/32b at that speed.
If you really want highest slave-memory speed, I'd use verilog and a Lattice FPGA (ICE40UP5K-SG48). (their QFN48 is the same lead pitch as the TQFP48 of N76E616)
It would be interesting to see what that pairing can do...
If you really want highest slave-memory speed, I'd use verilog and a Lattice FPGA (ICE40UP5K-SG48). (their QFN48 is the same lead pitch as the TQFP48 of N76E616)
It would be interesting to see what that pairing can do...
I can't locate it in a QFN package. I'm not set up for BGA. I did find a development board for $66, not sure if it has enough I/O.
Is there a faster way to blink a pin once, arbitrarily?
In some cases it will be off then right back on and in other cases there will be instructions in between the state changes.
If that is the highest level of compiler optimize, and it still generates 3 lines, you may need to go to in line ASM.
Is there a faster way to blink a pin once, arbitrarily?
In some cases it will be off then right back on and in other cases there will be instructions in between the state changes.
If that is the highest level of compiler optimize, and it still generates 3 lines, you may need to go to in line ASM.
You can use ANDN and OR, or simply XOR twice, as Peter alludes - just one line of assembler is needed to change the pin.
__asm__ ( "xor OUTA, #256\n\t"
"xor OUTA, #256\n\t"); // Lower and raise WE to commit
What I failed to consider is that I'm in complete control of the pins. Coming down from higher level programming this something to which I'm adjusting.
My old code made no assumption about the state of the pin and performed unnecessary steps. I will need to add a semaphore pin to ensure this continuity when I have multiple cogs accessing RAM.
I've made the same mistake a few other times in my code as well. I will find them.
@jmg
I put together an EFM8UB3 DIP module and I've got the N76E003 modules, so I can start working with those.
Still waiting on the adapters and stencil for the iCE40s.
First, my thanks to @jmg for the suggestion of using the N76E003 MCU for a keypad controller.
To update this, for anyone using 'small MCU as P1 peripherals',
I just noticed Nuvoton Store has a special on N76E003, for 25c/anyqty, and they have a worldwide shipping of $6.99 - shows 30680 in stock... https://direct.nuvoton.com/en/n76e003at20
Comments
I agree that a cheap dip is needed. As this software comes to fruition I will try to have something simple produced as cheaply as possible.
There's no doubt that I've made mistakes. No worries, I'm sure they'll come to light as I try to make these and inevitably fail here and there.
Yup, ought to save me a bunch of time and allow me to keep projects assembled.
I was also thinking of trying to emulate some of the 40xx logic ic. This is probably more of an academic curiosity but I think it will be informative. Would a 40xx that could change function be useful anywhere? (I know that last one's really open ended)
I offered them $2.70 each for an order of 10, very reasonable.
This is already done, look at
https://www.nexperia.com/products/logic/gates/configurable-gates/
and further up the scale...
http://www.silego.com/products/greenpak.html
An 8051 can emulate almost any AND/OR/XOR combination, using the Boolean opcodes, but the speed of operation is a key metric when trying that.
Software is always slower than hardware...
That said, one MSI-Logic area where cheap MCUs can push into, is the 4060 Oscillator+Counter type devices.
That 4060 is cheap, but has limited taps - no /2,/4,/8 and max of 2^14.
The N76E003 lacks a Crystal Osc, but the N76E885 does have that.
That's looks like a neat project, too. The N76E885AT28 emulating a 4060+ could allow for a bigger counter, 2^22 if you allow for 4 control pins?
so you could run a 2 line interrupt loop, from IDLE of
that would work for anything < ~500kHz fastest pin period, and give 8 binary toggling pins, & scope just like a counter.
For outputs between 500kHz and fOsc, there is CLOEN & CKDIV, that puts fOsc / (2 * CKDIV) onto a pin. (/1,/2,/4,/6,../510)
For single outputs, Timer0 and Timer1 can toggle pins T0,T1 on overflow, so could go as low as /(2^16*12*510)
The N76E003 PWM has a Binary prescaler, and a 16b reload, and a Timer1 feed option, so I make that a hardware-divider limit of 12*510*2^16*2^16
= quite large, over 2^44 and around 19 days period from 16MHz !
For general sounder/beeper use, you could divide 16MHz CKDIV=10, for a > 522Hz independent T0,T1 toggle, set with 8 bit precision, or 16M with PWM 16b precision to 244Hz ~ 30ppm granularity
Looks like I'm getting great results with the CY62256N connected directly to the flip.
200,000 random byte writes per second
238,095 random byte reads per second
1,159,420 sequential byte reads per second
and that's without a controller for the address.
What do you think of using a W78E052DFG as a controller?
I followed the comments through the asm and as best as I can tell the timing results are correct. (Code attached)
I'd like to know If I've made a mistake, would you mind taking a peek, please?
The CY62256N RAM is capable of running a lot faster.
Any feedback would be appreciated
The N78 series have the slower core, than the N76, and no calibrated on-chip Osc.
If you need many simple IO pins in one package, the N76E616 is a better choice.
Nuvoton do have Bootloaders (they call ISP, found in Nuvoton 8051 ISP-ICP Programmer v7.15.zip), & PC-side EXE's, but the ISP code is factory pre-loaded only on some older parts.
N76E616, N76E885 code is in the ZIP file, but I think not factory pre-loaded.
is this a possibility to explore with the N76E616AL48? 1 or more 32MB SPI Flash and 4MB of 16-bit SRAM.
294,117 random byte writes per second, up 47%
312,500 random byte reads per second, up 31%
1,194,029 sequential byte reads per second, up 3%
@jmg I found this old thread in which you were a significant contributor. It helped me refine this code
Yes, if you wanted to - however if this is just for experimenting, do not dismiss simply using a second P1 as the RAM controller.
It has less IO than N76E616 (32 vs 46 max) but P1 has a 20MHz opcode rate, (per COG) and can move 8/16/32b at that speed.
If you really want highest slave-memory speed, I'd use verilog and a Lattice FPGA (ICE40UP5K-SG48). (their QFN48 is the same lead pitch as the TQFP48 of N76E616)
It would be interesting to see what that pairing can do...
I can't locate it in a QFN package. I'm not set up for BGA. I did find a development board for $66, not sure if it has enough I/O.
? The SG48 is the QFN
Digikey Stock
Mouser show ICE40UP5K-SG48ITR 1,944 On Order, Estimated Ship Date 1,944 22-Jan-18
Not sure how I messed up that search, but thanks
Is there a faster way to blink a pin once, arbitrarily?
In some cases it will be off then right back on and in other cases there will be instructions in between the state changes.
If that is the highest level of compiler optimize, and it still generates 3 lines, you may need to go to in line ASM.
See some comments & examples of in line asm here
http://forums.parallax.com/discussion/162132/using-propgcc-and-asm
You can use ANDN and OR, or simply XOR twice, as Peter alludes - just one line of assembler is needed to change the pin.
I figured there would be a single command. Thank you for the reading that will be very helpful.
__asm__ ( "xor OUTA, #256\n\t" "xor OUTA, #256\n\t"); // Lower and raise WE to commitWhat I failed to consider is that I'm in complete control of the pins. Coming down from higher level programming this something to which I'm adjusting.My old code made no assumption about the state of the pin and performed unnecessary steps. I will need to add a semaphore pin to ensure this continuity when I have multiple cogs accessing RAM.
I've made the same mistake a few other times in my code as well. I will find them.
I put together an EFM8UB3 DIP module and I've got the N76E003 modules, so I can start working with those.
Still waiting on the adapters and stencil for the iCE40s.
I just noticed Nuvoton Store has a special on N76E003, for 25c/anyqty, and they have a worldwide shipping of $6.99 - shows 30680 in stock...
https://direct.nuvoton.com/en/n76e003at20