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Looking for HV H-Bridge — Parallax Forums

Looking for HV H-Bridge

JonnyMacJonnyMac Posts: 9,163
edited 2016-11-01 18:37 in Robotics
I'm trying to help a friend retro-fit a kiddie ride that uses a 180VDC, 3.5A motor to create the back-and-forth motion (there is a large gear reduction on the output).

Of course, we started by looking for an off-the-shelf motor controller, but most are for 3-phase brushless motors, and all require quadrature encoder feedback which we don't have and cannot add. It's okay that we run the motor without feedback which seems to cause the motor control salesmen to lose their minds.

We did a quick search for a compatible H-Bridge. The first one we found seemed great until we were quoted $5000-6000 per unit (it's a mil-spec device). I have done motor control for camera platforms, but those used chips that could handle 12VDC and a couple amps -- this motor is simple, it just runs at a higher voltage.

You input is appreciated.

JonnyMac

Comments

  • Jon,
    Why not use the technology of the DHB 10 with some 250 volt Mosfets?
    Jim
  • jmgjmg Posts: 15,175
    JonnyMac wrote: »
    I'm trying to help a friend retro-fit a kiddie ride that uses a 180VDC, 3.5A motor to create the back-and-forth motion
    Do you need to reverse the Motor, or just speed control it ?
    This is more akin to a DC power supply, than a 3 phase motor, so you may be better looking for SMPS designs that can give 180VDC, > 3.5A

  • evanhevanh Posts: 16,042
    Jonny,
    It's probably best to use an induction motor for the less precise control like that. Pricing is also very competitive in that market. You'll get a lot less confused conversations for sure.
  • Evanh,
    Device has existing motor OP is trying to control.
  • Several months ago a golf cart repair shop gave me an old 48V controller so I could take it apart and see what was in it.
    It's 'possible' that a manufacturer of a 48 volt controller would, at least, know a company that makes larger controllers.
  • erco wrote:
    or else: ...
    Love it! If you feather it just right, you can also control the speed.

    -Phil
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,257
    erco wrote:
    or else: ...
    Love it! If you feather it just right, you can also control the speed.

    -Phil

    We must all learn to live in a digital world.

  • For clarification:
    -- the motor is in place
    -- it's a brushed, DC motor (180V, 3.5A)
    -- we need forward, reverse, and speed control (hence looking for h-bridge)
  • jmgjmg Posts: 15,175
    edited 2016-11-02 00:59
    JonnyMac wrote: »
    For clarification:
    -- the motor is in place
    -- it's a brushed, DC motor (180V, 3.5A)
    -- we need forward, reverse, and speed control (hence looking for h-bridge)

    If you cannot find a module or Eval Board, an alternative is to select a Hi/Lo side Gate Driver part, like this 600V one
    (choose one that does have deadtime, interlock )

    http://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infineon-2EDL05x06xx-DS-v02_06-EN.pdf?fileId=db3a30433e30e4bf013e3c649ffd6c8b

    and work from there.

    or, look at a Power Package, with Power devices and gate drive, like
    http://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infineon-IGCM10F60GA-DS-v01_06-EN.pdf?fileId=5546d4624fb7fef2014fcb0cba6d7856

    or

    http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?keywords= IKCM10

  • JonnyMac,

    It might be easier to roll your own hybrid ... Use a relay for forward and reverse and have it default in the forward position (how often do you need to reverse?)
    Anyway, that way you can just control a single MOSFET or a few in Parallel to handle the PWM ... no need for a fancy H-Bridge.

    Note: To prevent relay arching on the contacts just make sure that when you switch direction that the PWM signal to the MOSFETs is completely off
  • Clock LoopClock Loop Posts: 2,069
    edited 2016-11-02 02:00
    How are you supplying the 180VDC?



    You need something like this.
    I am pretty sure the ajax guys will tell you how to communicate with the drive to get it to do what you want.
    It has differential inputs. NO encoder required. $500

    serveimage?url=http%3A%2F%2Ft3.gstatic.com%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dtbn%3AANd9GcQSBKr6lG8nCg7EU154_DFOtt2oVtGSNuhbBRi2CT6EcYonmWbBLQ&sp=949aa42e35788b6d5ce5baa69889397e


    The DC1 is a pretty rock solid part, like I said, you just need the ajax dude to let you in on the differential protocol, and then you can probably just get a differential chip hooked up to a basic stamp/propeller probably.

    With the DC1 YOU need to supply the motor voltage.


    Another possible option... 295$
    http://ph.parker.com/us/en/dc-motor-speed-controller-dc512c-series/512c-08-00-00-00
  • kwinnkwinn Posts: 8,697
    edited 2016-11-02 13:21
    You could always build an SCR bridge and use AC cycle control for speed control. Sort of an SCR H bridge, and can run that motor circuitry directly from a 240V AC line.
  • MicksterMickster Posts: 2,698
    edited 2016-11-03 09:06
    As recommended in your earlier thread http://www.a-m-c.com/products/az.html

    Not sure if this is related to your +/- 10v motor command project but here, you have the option of that or PWM.

    They can handle brushed or brushless. Last pricing was under $300 (not including DC PSU).

    I have used this company's products and can highly recommend them.
  • Also, if you prefer to roll your own, check out the attached document. The chip is good for higher voltages but he recommends a board design with isolation, etc.

    This is an older device but there are newer versions.
  • evanhevanh Posts: 16,042
    Agreed with Mickster on highly recommending AMC products. I've retrofitted one of the analogue "Classic" models to a brushless servo motor with no trouble. It did, however, make use of the motor's Hall sensors and I can't remember if that was strictly necessary or not but I do remember it having lots of options to suit differing motors.
  • Halls are only for commutation of BLMs. Not required for brush-type motors.
  • evanhevanh Posts: 16,042
    edited 2016-11-03 10:33
    I was under the impression it is a brushless motor. There is both brushless permanent magnet AC and DC. DC models usually have Hall sensors, while AC models have resolvers. PS: I don't know the difference in the motor construction though.
  • evanh wrote: »
    Agreed with Mickster on highly recommending AMC products.

    +1 for AMC. They were a customer of mine before I left the power semiconductor market.

    If you choose to go the roll-your-own route, then I can donate some of my old stash to the project. I have 10pcs of PS21963-4 (600V, 10A) intelligent modules that are just lingering in an on-line auction currently.

    Like the IR (now Infineon) part shown in Mickster's post, these are designed for 3-phase applications. This application note shows the basic idea for just using 4 of the 6 IGBTs for an H-bridge. There was a transient spike in demand for H-bridges for power conversion when the US government was handing out piles of cash to anyone with "solar" in their company name (hence the 2009 app note).
  • Of course, we started by looking for an off-the-shelf motor controller, but most are for 3-phase brushless motors

    I interpreted this to mean that his motor is not brushless.
  • I used 21 AMC motor drives on this machine that I designed/built, 10 years ago. 8 of the drives are located on the infinitely rotating turret and are commanded via a wireless link.

    The products are diesel fuel injection lines for Siemens, Ford and Navistar.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/sydnhr2dbh2hmhi/AMCSCarocell.wmv?dl=0


  • kwinnkwinn Posts: 8,697
    edited 2016-11-03 13:25
    JonnyMac wrote: »
    For clarification:
    -- the motor is in place
    -- it's a brushed, DC motor (180V, 3.5A)
    -- we need forward, reverse, and speed control (hence looking for h-bridge)

    From an earlier post. Definitely a brushed motor. Can be controlled by a variety of controllers as long as they can handle 180VDC and 3.5A. An H bridge or using 2 of the 3 phases of a BLDC controller would work. If required the feedback signal can be simulated or used for speed control.
  • Thanks for the feedback. My friend is not far from AMC, so we had long talks with them and even bought what they recommended -- only to find out that it will not work in open-loop mode.

    We found another device that we're evaluating now.

    Again, I appreciate the feedback and suggestions. In the past, my motor control applications have been with camera platforms that run 12VDC motors.
  • JonnyMac wrote: »
    only to find out that it will not work in open-loop mode.

    Hi Jon, this has me baffled.

    Did you configure it as "torque mode"?

    Which model was it?

    I can see no reason for it to not run without feedback.

  • This was part of the problem for us -- despite providing every bit of information we could to them, we got conflicting information.
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