Shop OBEX P1 Docs P2 Docs Learn Events
The end of VGA is nigh, apparently. — Parallax Forums

The end of VGA is nigh, apparently.

Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
edited 2016-01-30 22:52 in General Discussion
http://hackaday.com/2016/01/29/vga-in-memoriam/

From the article:

"This year is, however, the year that VGA finally dies. After 30 years, after being depreciated [sic] by several technologies, and after it became easy to put a VGA output on everything from an eight-pin microcontroller to a Raspberry Pi, VGA has died. It’s not supported by the latest Intel chips, and it’s hard to find a motherboard with the very familiar VGA connector."

The article pertains only to computers and motherboards. But when VGA on those goes away, the TVs and monitors that support it won't be far behind.

-Phil

Comments

  • It's already getting hard to find a TV with a VGA input, but then VGA was never a very natural match for TV anyway since it can't carry audio.

    As some of the HaD comments note the article does seem a bit premature and overwrought, since VGA remains available on some of the other connectors via passive adapters and is still ubiquitous in some industries. Despite its "death" you can still get PS/2 everything, though you might have to go to eBay or Amazon to get it, and all manufacturers I know of of hardened industrial keypads offer PS/2 versions because there is so much legacy equipment that can't handle USB.

    It's true it would make no sense to put a VGA connector on a 4K monitor but if you don't put one on a 1080p monitor you're just shooting yourself in the customer base. Someone will be putting those connectors on for awhile I think.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    Yep,

    Sad but true.

    We have been saying that supporting video output on the Prop is pointless for ages.


  • I connect my current TV (as the one before it) to a PC by DVI to VGA with an adapter. Sanyo has been good about providing VGA in on their TVs. I don't need sound from the TV since I only use it as a monitor. The PC sound is sent to a Creek amplifier with Polk speakers.
  • I guess long live NTSC as our new HDTV is lacking a VGA connector, but still has composite in.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    Martin,

    That's great. But there has not been a TV in the house for many years now.

    These "TV" things are disappearing rapidly.


  • I don't watch broadcast or cable TV either. I wonder how much the tuner actually adds to the cost of a TV? Because mine is used almost entirely as a monitor for the living room PC. I would gladly trade the tuner and sound for a DVI input.
  • jmgjmg Posts: 15,173
    localroger wrote: »
    ... Despite its "death" you can still get PS/2 everything, though you might have to go to eBay or Amazon to get it, and all manufacturers I know of of hardened industrial keypads offer PS/2 versions because there is so much legacy equipment that can't handle USB....

    There are also reliability issues with USB - in another thread the poster says he gets only a few months of up-time on Linux USB.
    No issue on Consumer, but in industrial system may expect better.

  • jmgjmg Posts: 15,173
    "Phil wrote:
    The article pertains only to computers and motherboards. But when VGA on those goes away, the TVs and monitors that support it won't be far behind.
    That focus is quite skewed - certainly tablets and compact laptops do not have VGA connectors, there driven mainly by size constraints.
    However, TVs still offer VGA and the chipsets have that for free, so it becomes a 'can we fit' question.

    I've seen small 7" and 8" displays on eBay for Vehicles, that have both VGA and HDMI connectors, and I would expect that approach to be standard for some time yet.

    If someone offered a more compact VGA standard connector, there may be more life left.
    I've read that most VGA monitors XOR H.V sync, so composite sync is present by design, which saves 1 pin, and that means a compact USB 5 pin connector could be used. The main hurdle here is one of labeling.

    VGA may even outlast HDMI, as I see video over USB-C is now being offered, so the USB-C may become the defacto compact standard, with others deprecated.
    USB-C adapters to HDMI and VGA may be the next standard.
  • That editorial is way premature.

    VGA will be around and useful for a very long time yet. The author of that piece based it almost entirely on a move Intel made.




  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    USB? I thought we were talking video here.

    But, whilst we are at it. USB is a total disaster.

    It's nearly 20 years since Bill Gate demonstrated that USB does not work

    Now look at all the questions that have come up here since about how to get a simple UART interface working with the Propeller.

    It's really annoying.
  • jmgjmg Posts: 15,173
    Heater. wrote: »
    ...
    Now look at all the questions that have come up here since about how to get a simple UART interface working with the Propeller.

    It's really annoying.

    Yes, and I found the Up-Time comments about USB and Linux illuminating too, in another thread ...

    Given Keyboards were able to support PS/2 and USB operation, is it a shame they overlooked making USB support PS/2 and even TTL RS232 on the same connector.

    You can be sure USB-C chipsets will all have wrinkles too...
  • PS/2 is also more secure than USB because it can only be a mouse or keyboard, versus USB which was the stuxnet attack vector.

    @Heater, NTSC is on more than TV's. It's still fairly widely used in security cameras and automobile backup monitors, and they're all pretty cheap.
  • The funny thing is that for awhile it was getting hard to find NTSC monitors so I switched to using VGA for work projects, which is of course a bit limiting because the timing is much harder with the 80 MHz P1. But now it is getting harder to find VGA support in some circles, but NTSC is still everywhere it always was.

    A big thing we do is small monitors, which in the current market means headrest monitors made for vehicle display systems and kiosks. Those are all NTSC and VGA and aren't likely to change for a few years, since vehicle systems don't tend to obsolete at the rate desktop computers do. A couple of years ago the cheapest 9-inch VGA monitor I could find was over $250 but now you can get them for $60 via Amazon.
  • jmgjmg Posts: 15,173
    localroger wrote: »
    A couple of years ago the cheapest 9-inch VGA monitor I could find was over $250 but now you can get them for $60 via Amazon.
    Can you give a link ? I've seen a trend to drop the stiff/bulky custom cables and instead have standard connectors on a stepped back panel on these small monitors, which is more useful.

  • tonyp12tonyp12 Posts: 1,951
    edited 2016-01-31 16:55
    That is why I think P2 should be designed as HDMI chip (720P is OK) .
    And then cannibalize on the fast serializer video subsystem to make it more general in what it can do, for usb/Ethernet/smart pins etc.

  • Gotta license IP for that.
  • tonyp12 wrote: »
    That is why I think P2 should be designed as HDMI chip (720P is OK) .

    Is it not? That was the plan some two years ago wasn't it? Did that change when Chip restarted the design?
  • That's never been the plan.

    Analog video got generalized into the streamer, which works as a capture and output to the DACS. Video is one thing it can do now. We did get the color management and mixing circuits in this one, which are more video specific, but can still be used for other purposes.

    Driving digital displays, such as an LCD, became part of the plan when the video system got generalized for this design iteration. That's a general purpose multi-pin, in and out stream basically.

  • jmgjmg Posts: 15,173
    DavidZemon wrote: »
    tonyp12 wrote: »
    That is why I think P2 should be designed as HDMI chip (720P is OK) .

    Is it not? That was the plan some two years ago wasn't it? Did that change when Chip restarted the design?
    P2 should be able to do HDMI with an External Serialiser * (see Rayman's work on P1 with HDMI on external device)


    The problem with inbuilt HDMI is the clocked serializer is outside the process capability. That's a pretty big brick wall.

    * Checking into ADI, I see in their ADV752x series, a ADV7528 at $2.20/1k
    16b Streamer in, 150MHz, and compact 49WLSCP

    This streamer parallel interface, is quite similar to the (USB) FT600, which P2 should also support via streamer, for Super speed USB

    eg FT600-16bit/FT601-32bit FIFO interface.
    Sync FIFO, CLK from FT60x is 66Mhz or 100Mhz, FIFO Clock enable signals.
    ie inside (just?) P2 bus speeds, but the timing may be a challenge.
  • jmgjmg Posts: 15,173
    edited 2016-01-31 21:41
    Found some more background on HDMI here

    https://ez.analog.com/message/225129#225129

    The comments by the AD support tech are interesting.
    It's required to be an HDCP adopter for receivers, we don't require it for transmitter parts as you can't decode anything with them.

    Seems HDMI transmit is not a license issue.
    This also raises the eyebrows...
    One thing to realize with HDMI is that if the video format is not a CEA or VESA standard, even if it works with ADV7511, displays probably won't accept it.

    I've seen industrial/military customers put HDMI on a product thinking that means they can just plug in to any display, not realizing that their custom video formats work on few, if any, TVs.

    Ouch - VGA is a lot more predictable than that, and many Industrial apps cannot pre-select displays, as they expect a long design lifetime.
  • HDMI would be nice even if it requires an external driver chip. So are there any inexpensive HDMI driver chips that will take in a byte stream and generate the HDMI bit stream?
  • jmgjmg Posts: 15,173
    edited 2016-01-31 22:17
    Dave Hein wrote: »
    HDMI would be nice even if it requires an external driver chip. So are there any inexpensive HDMI driver chips that will take in a byte stream and generate the HDMI bit stream?

    See my post above - in the ADV75xx series, the ADV7528 lists at $2.20.

    Some of the older (but more available) ADV75xx parts are larger packages and more $$, and they seem to cycle thru part codes too...

    Another pathway to HDMI, would be to use the Pi Zero as a HDMI terminal, and focus on a fast serial link, and terminal SW.



  • jmg wrote: »
    localroger wrote: »
    A couple of years ago the cheapest 9-inch VGA monitor I could find was over $250 but now you can get them for $60 via Amazon.
    Can you give a link ? I've seen a trend to drop the stiff/bulky custom cables and instead have standard connectors on a stepped back panel on these small monitors, which is more useful.

    Courtesy of my sales guy, these are the ones we just installed at a new job:

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00I2K45X8?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00

    He also tracked down these, which are a little more expensive:

    http://www.amazon.com/Tontec®-Resolution-Raspberry-Rearview-Headrest/dp/B00OOJPAGW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1453213289&sr=8-1&keywords=7+inch+monitor+vga
  • jmgjmg Posts: 15,173
    localroger wrote: »

    Courtesy of my sales guy, these are the ones we just installed at a new job:

    Thanks - the first one is cables-only, but the second one is the HDMI and VGA approach I mentioned, and it seems to also have Composite via cable option & PSU and more pixels, for the extra price.

Sign In or Register to comment.