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pbasic for ipad? — Parallax Forums

pbasic for ipad?

beaglebainbeaglebain Posts: 10
in BASIC Stamp
I have searched the apple app store and cannot find anything. is there not an app available to program pbasic for basic stamp on ipad? I would think something like this would have been desirable for more people than just me.

Comments

  • Mike GreenMike Green Posts: 23,101
    edited 2016-01-18 01:00
    There is no such app. Complicating this is an Apple policy that prohibits IOS apps from having serial connections whether wired or wireless via Bluetooth. A serial connection is the standard way to download programs to a Basic Stamp and the timing is fairly tight. There is an effort underway to support IOS for Propeller programming using an RN-XV module which provides a WiFi interface, but the same scheme won't work with Basic Stamp without significant changes to the Stamp firmware.
  • evanhevanh Posts: 15,548
    It would be interesting to know why the policy exists?

    I just did asearch and came across this - http://redpark.com/products/developers/serial-cable-sdk-faq-download/ - Quote "As licensed by Apple, these cables are intended for use with apps deployed privately at home, at a school, or within an enterprise."

    I've not used any IOS device but, out of interest, I do wonder what it takes to deploy software on an iPad that's not from Apple's AppStore?
  • potatoheadpotatohead Posts: 10,261
    You need a developer license. Last I looked, that was $100 or so. You get Xcode and can build things for iOS and send them to your pad. Others, running a similar setup, can get the code, build, etc... and send it to theirs.

    Or, you jailbreak it, and or use things like iEmulator, etc... to hack the app in there.

    Or... looks like this is being improved: http://bouk.co/blog/sideload-iphone/

    Xcode 7 appears to allow anyone to load an app now. :)
  • beaglebainbeaglebain Posts: 10
    edited 2016-01-18 11:02
    Mike Green wrote: »
    There is no such app. Complicating this is an Apple policy that prohibits IOS apps from having serial connections whether wired or wireless via Bluetooth. A serial connection is the standard way to download programs to a Basic Stamp and the timing is fairly tight. There is an effort underway to support IOS for Propeller programming using an RN-XV module which provides a WiFi interface, but the same scheme won't work with Basic Stamp without significant changes to the Stamp firmware.

    I have to disagree with this because I know serial communication is already in use by Apple products through the lightening connector. Apple sells and licenses to sell connector adapters which connect the lightening connector to a USB connector as well as an adapter to connect to a compact flash reader.

    I myself have used such a connector to connect a MIDI keyboard to my iPad. The MIDI keyboard is serial communications with USB for I/O.
  • beaglebainbeaglebain Posts: 10
    potatohead wrote: »
    You need a developer license. Last I looked, that was $100 or so. You get Xcode and can build things for iOS and send them to your pad. Others, running a similar setup, can get the code, build, etc... and send it to theirs.

    Or, you jailbreak it, and or use things like iEmulator, etc... to hack the app in there.

    Or... looks like this is being improved: http://bouk.co/blog/sideload-iphone/

    Xcode 7 appears to allow anyone to load an app now. :)


    Well, I wonder, however why Parallax hasn't developed something and licensed it through Apple? Certainly they have the resources to do that.
  • evanhevanh Posts: 15,548
    A developer licence doesn't get you a product in Apple's AppStore though. The policy will block any attempt to get it listed in the AppStore.

    I believe what Potato is saying is, without using the AppStore, every iPad has to be loaded via the Xcode developer suit. Which means you have to buy the developer licence as well as anything Parallax might do.
  • beaglebainbeaglebain Posts: 10
    I'm still confused, why wouldn't parallax use the App Store to distribute an app then?

    I would be willing to pay for an app to program a stamp thru my iPad.

    There's a limit to what I would pay of course, so it might not be cost effective for them.
  • Mike GreenMike Green Posts: 23,101
    Parallax has talked about using the App Store to distribute the Propeller downloading tool they're working on once it's ready to use. There's a revised Activity Board that'll have to be ready as well. You'll have to have one of those plus an RN-XV with revised firmware that'll plug into the xBee socket of the Activity Board.

    The timing for Basic Stamp downloading is tight like that of the Propeller and doesn't tolerate delays. Whether it can be done via a wireless link involving an RN-XV is unknown. Something like EMESystems' Stache device might work, but would that bring the cost of programming a Stamp with an iPad well beyond what most people would be willing to spend is a good question, particularly for an already expensive product.
  • mindrobotsmindrobots Posts: 6,506
    An app store typically takes 30% of what a developer charges, so Parallax would only get 70% of that limit you would be willing to pay. If you are going to support the iDevices, you should also support the android users which means another product with a different code base. You may not be aware, but Parallax nternal developer resources are stretched thin which requires contact programmers or volunteers from the community.

    It comes to where you want to put your limited resources as a company and where the biggest payback is.
  • David BetzDavid Betz Posts: 14,516
    Mike Green wrote: »
    Parallax has talked about using the App Store to distribute the Propeller downloading tool they're working on once it's ready to use. There's a revised Activity Board that'll have to be ready as well. You'll have to have one of those plus an RN-XV with revised firmware that'll plug into the xBee socket of the Activity Board.

    The timing for Basic Stamp downloading is tight like that of the Propeller and doesn't tolerate delays. Whether it can be done via a wireless link involving an RN-XV is unknown. Something like EMESystems' Stache device might work, but would that bring the cost of programming a Stamp with an iPad well beyond what most people would be willing to spend is a good question, particularly for an already expensive product.
    I know about a Parallax project to use the Digi Xbee S6B WiFi module. Is there another using the RN-XV?

  • beaglebainbeaglebain Posts: 10
    mindrobots wrote: »
    An app store typically takes 30% of what a developer charges, so Parallax would only get 70% of that limit you would be willing to pay. If you are going to support the iDevices, you should also support the android users which means another product with a different code base. You may not be aware, but Parallax nternal developer resources are stretched thin which requires contact programmers or volunteers from the community.

    It comes to where you want to put your limited resources as a company and where the biggest payback is.
    that's understandable, then.

  • evanhevanh Posts: 15,548
    beaglebain wrote: »
    I'm still confused, why wouldn't parallax use the App Store to distribute an app then?

    The main difficulty is getting past the policy ban, I'd say.
  • Mike GreenMike Green Posts: 23,101
    Sorry if I confused things. I keep thinking of the RN-XV while the project uses the xBee S6B as David said.
  • beaglebainbeaglebain Posts: 10
    evanh wrote: »
    beaglebain wrote: »
    I'm still confused, why wouldn't parallax use the App Store to distribute an app then?

    The main difficulty is getting past the policy ban, I'd say.
    Why would they have a policy ban?

  • evanhevanh Posts: 15,548
    You'll have to ask Apple that one. I'd like to know myself.
  • potatoheadpotatohead Posts: 10,261
    Apple keeps a pretty tight grip on the app store. In general, they do not see peogramming, dev tools, many emulators, etc... as something they want to have in there.

    BTW, I've not tested it as my Mac is down and I don't have an iPad, but you can get xcode free with an Apple ID. Might not cost anything but some time now with xcode 7.

    Connecting things in a direct way means more borked iPad to deal with. Apple is very likely drawing a hard line in the sand for support reasons. If you have the cable and xcode, do what you want, and they will ignore you.

    Anything Apple is a very managed experience, and they consider that part of the value they provide. To the vast majority of iPad users, it is high value. It will all just work, no hassles.

    For peeps like us, it's a PITA, which is what xcode is for. :)

  • beaglebainbeaglebain Posts: 10
    :)
  • dgatelydgately Posts: 1,629
    Not a plug for Apple, just some factors...

    I don't think Apple has or would ever have a specific policy that would prohibit a wireless download app on the AppStore. An app that includes a compiler creates a different issue and is probably more likely the kind of app that AppStore policy would prohibit, initially. But, time will tell.

    Also, someone mentioned something about Apple charging the developer for an AppStore app. I don't think that Parallax would want to charge for an app as they have not done this for all the other software that it provides to developers for their products (to my knowledge). Apple does not charge developers of free apps on the AppStore. So, it would not be a money issue to provide an app on the AppStore, either.

    Developers that produce products such as the RedPark serial adapter and its software are actually part of a separate developer program with Apple. Those developers go through a different and much more in-depth process for bringing their hardware & software into the AppStore world (i.e. you have to lay down all of your cards on the proverbial AppStore poker table).

    XCode is free to developers that join 'any' of Apple's free or paid-for developer programs (Mac OS, iOS, tvOS, etc...). Joining Apple's individual developer programs for Mac OS or iOS cost $100 per year, general join-up is free. There's separate paid-for Mac development and iOS development programs. The $100 fee really just gives the developer the ability to create certificates that allow apps to be code-signed for possible AppStore inclusion (no guarantees of your app being accepted, here, just the ability to sign them). Code-signing also allows apps to be more easily downloaded outside of the sphere of the AppStore to pass through the Mac's Security & Privacy Preference settings.

    So, an iPad or iPhone app that loads a binary onto a wireless-enabled propeller board is quite possible. An IDE-type app that allows editing, compile & loading is the more difficult goal. A developer would need to make a "really good" case for an app of this type. Interestingly, a search of the AppStore for apps that allow compiles of MCU code brings up only apps that offload the compile to a server, somewhere in the cloud. There are apps for Arduino and Particle-IO boards that use this method. If you are a Particle-IO developer, you probably already know about compiler outages and such via email notifications :zombie:



    dgately
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,256
    Any idea what's Apple's market share? IOW, what's the ratio of Macs to PCs, and iPhones to Androids? I'm guessing about 1:3 on both counts, AKA 25% market share.
  • dgatelydgately Posts: 1,629
    erco wrote: »
    Any idea what's Apple's market share? IOW, what's the ratio of Macs to PCs, and iPhones to Androids? I'm guessing about 1:3 on both counts, AKA 25% market share.

    The important thing is the market share of iPads in the class rooms... School teachers and university professors have been asking for iPad apps (a little birdy told me this...), specifically for use in their robotics classes. They want to build software for their bots on iPads and then use the iPad to control & receive data from the bots.

    The other side of the coin is what is the share of app-use on those devices? Which AppStore gets more app download requests, Apple's, Google's?

    dgately
  • jmgjmg Posts: 15,157
    edited 2016-01-21 22:34
    David Betz wrote: »
    I know about a Parallax project to use the Digi Xbee S6B WiFi module.
    On the topic of other-than-RS232 download, I see this item in a news-feed

    Dynamic NFC Interface Transponder for Large File Transfer
    http://www.ti.com/product/RF430CL331H?DCMP

    claims 848 kbps, and appx 50c price point.

    I had not considered NFC as a serial link, but those numbers are quite good in the MCU space.
  • evanhevanh Posts: 15,548
    edited 2016-01-22 01:46
    jmg wrote: »
    I had not considered NFC as a serial link, but those numbers are quite good in the MCU space.

    The NFC bit framing is UART type start-stop bits, half-duplex, little-endian, equivalent to a point-to-point RS485 link.
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