PC board software
bte2
Posts: 154
in Propeller 1
I know this isn't a Propeller issue, but who has the good stuff? I got burned, but I'll withhold the name because I'm looking for good software and not trying to start a flame war. If anybody wants to know, it's not listed below.
I'm not looking for cheap, I'm looking for good, but I'll not make another such investment without soliciting a few opinions first. The time I have spent trying to get this software working (making patterns and components, as well as getting the horrible autorouter to be useful) dwarfs the several hundred Dollar outlay several times over. Without a decent autorouter, I may as well have stuck with Express PCB.
This is not to slam them, but they did misrepresent (IMHO) the utility of the software. There are things I do like about it, but I've been trying (unsuccessfully) to finish off a board for over a month now, and I'm running out of time.
So, who has software that works as advertised? Eagle? Pad2Pad? Pads? Although I wasn't pressed for time before, I'm getting close now.
Any suggestions would be mightily appreciated. Thanks
I'm not looking for cheap, I'm looking for good, but I'll not make another such investment without soliciting a few opinions first. The time I have spent trying to get this software working (making patterns and components, as well as getting the horrible autorouter to be useful) dwarfs the several hundred Dollar outlay several times over. Without a decent autorouter, I may as well have stuck with Express PCB.
This is not to slam them, but they did misrepresent (IMHO) the utility of the software. There are things I do like about it, but I've been trying (unsuccessfully) to finish off a board for over a month now, and I'm running out of time.
So, who has software that works as advertised? Eagle? Pad2Pad? Pads? Although I wasn't pressed for time before, I'm getting close now.
Any suggestions would be mightily appreciated. Thanks
Comments
Large or small. How complex? High speed, RF, logic, not so high speed? Analogue or digital or both? How many layers? Through hole or surface mount or both?
What is your budget?
Things may have changed but traditionally auto-routers have always been terrible. Perhaps saving you time if had huge complex boards with neat rows of lots 14 pin DIP chips like back in the day. Which no one has anymore. PCB designers would rather route manually.
Half the secret of getting good auto-routing is having good component placement first. Another task that is often better done by a human.
Good luck.
I have evaluated Eagle in the past but never really committed to determining if I could get results with it. Maybe I can download the latest demo and give it a look-see.
Mostly I was wondering what sayeth the Propeller Brain Trust(tm).
That said, you also could have manually routed a few thousand nodes in that month. I rather prefer manual routing. If you don't, then that is cool. However, don't waste a month, getting more and more frustrated.
Sad to say, but expresspcb is actually easier to manually route with. Smile, I used to lay out boards with vellum and technical pens a lifetime ago.
As for your problem, I use an ancient licensed version of Protel pre Windows 95. I always manually route my boards. My version of Protel has its quirks and flaws but I have worked around those for 20 years. Of course that is of no help to you.
I keep looking at KiCad and think I should give it a go. But alas, there is always something better to do and I never get around to try and learn it.
True story. I think I paid a grand for it in like 1987. It did actually work though :-)
That was cheap in 1987. Round about then I worked on the team that produced CadStar PCB and Schematics. Racal-Redac sold that for £10,000 a seat! More if you wanted the decent auto-router.
Still, it was the world's first interactive graphical PCB design system. And then the worlds first PCB application for the PC. (Used to run on dedicated hardware before that).
Amazingly, now that you remind me, I find CadStar lives on. Now belongs to Zuken. Whoever they are?
http://www.zuken.com/en/products/pcb-design/cadstar
There is even a free trial version:
http://www.zuken.com/en/products/pcb-design/cadstar/resources/software/express
I wonder if any of my old code is still in there?
Edit: Ah yes, I think Zuken was the distributor for Racal-Redacs products in Japan back then.
If you just joined their forum yesterday, then your first couple of messages will require moderation. For grins, I went back over to their forum to see if the tone has suddenly changed. Based on this recent auto-route gripe, I would have to say that even irate users are handled sincerely and professionally. You will see a few familiar faces over there, as well, as I recognize some common members from this forum.
When you don't get the answer that you want, it is usually because you are asking the wrong question ... or not asking the question. Your frustration sounds like me with compilers ... then one of the forum members talks me down off of the ledge and walks me towards what ends up being a simple solution.
I am fine with a less-than-perfect autorouter, and am accommodating enough to understand the difficulties involved in writing such a program. I'm not being one of those inconsolable customers who is simply looking for a reason to gripe.
That said, it does bug me that it will not route two pins right next to each other, and that it changes artwork that I have manually laid out and locked. That last one is the one that is trying my confidence.
Like I said earlier, I'm not looking to crucify them, and there is a lot to like with this software. My question here on this forum was to see what other people are using, free from advertising claims, and how they like it. I'm not even concerned with the cost like most people are. I'm not looking for cheap, I'm looking for good.
When the grand comes directly off of your dinner table, in 1987, a grand was a lot for a fledgling company that really didn't make much money. That grand was after the 5 grand for the crappy computer to run it.
Again, to be clear- without the autorouter, with manual routing in mind, expresspcb doesn't fight back as hard (and expresspcb leaves a lot to be desired), but at least with expresspcb I could submit the artwork confident that what I did was what was submitted.
Enter KiCad: I'm still trying. The concept of separated footprints for the parts library seems... awkward, but I want it to succeed. If I put in KiCad as many hours as I put into Eagle it will work... see ya in 10 years...
The autorouter in Eagle is... well it kind of works but I like routing per hand, tinkering with the traces, I love it. It is fulfilling. Drawing schematics.... that I don't like... I'd just like a smarter drag like in Altium... well wypiwyg....
What I wanted to say is: it needs time, patience and understanding: how it works, which paradigm it uses (the why is not important, you cannot change it, sadly), how is the workflow.
Complete with a parallel port dongle, that took a bit of time to work around
Oh yeah, the parallel port dongle. I still have a couple of those around.
In one company meeting at Racal-Redac the directors introduced one very shy looking young Japanese guy.
The guy said "Hello, I am from Tokyo, I have come here to buy England"
That was it. He walked off stage. And we all laughed.
Turned out to be true....
My original Protel had a dongle. But with one of the upgrades the dongle requirement was removed. I remember Autotrax. I am using Protel Advanced PCB & Schematic V3.1. It runs fine under W7 but will not run under W10 (64bit).
Back to the OP's original question. With time running out, go with what you have used before. It may take longer than you want, but there is no learning curve and you know the traps. No more time now to try new software. (IMHO)
First and foremost, I am very much cheesed that it took them over two days to "allow" my question to appear on the forum. Thanks fellas, you've been a great help (not). It's not like time is money or anything like that.
This software fights most attempts to edit existing art, and I am very much sick of it screwing up work that I have explicitly locked. When in manual editing mode, it wants to exit that mode very often so I always end up inadvertently doing things that I didn't intend to do unless I select manual editing mode before I do anything. More insidious is that there is no way to get into any sort of groove because I am forced to check every last edit before I can move onto the next one.
It is very rare for me to say this, but overall I regret getting so invested in this software (which is different than saying I regret purchasing it).
It fights everything I try to do with it, and software just isn't supposed to do that.
I tried Eagle for a while but their free version had too many restrictions for me (limited to 100 x 80mm, 2 layers, 1 schematic sheet and non-commercial use only)
So at work it's Altium but home it's DesignSpark PCB these days.
Oh yes. Googling around I find that I worked with the two guys who went on to be the first Pulsonix directors. That was a great team, one of the best I ever worked with.
The don't seem to be real interested in pricing it online which makes me think it is expensive (which isn't automatically a problem).
Heater,
That must've been Bob Williams and David Manners.
so.. this is my .02
I happen to be a PDB layout .. person.. I have done very simple 2 and even 1 layer boards all the way up to high speed 16 layer 1600 pin FPGA's with 2 64 bit ddr3 buses, 2 32 bit ddr3 buses, USB 3, 4 lane PCIE on a little less than 3 by 5 inches.. that was a tough one..
I say that only to say this. With pcb software its pick your poison. None of them are really good at everything. Some are a little better at lib management and others are a little better at actual drawing, while others are better at schematic capture. I have used mentor graphics, altium, eagle, and cadence.. one other I forget he name of now and all have their pluses and minuses. We have several engineering interns running around here and many of them come and ask me this question, what’s the best PCB software. I generally turn them toward ki-cad for their school and intern projects. It’s a good tool and free and no more or less difficult to learn or use.
Why is auto routing important to you? I use to design IC’s for about 20 years and in the digital domain of IC’s auto routing has come a long way.. but for board design I haven’t found it useful. Not even a little.. perhaps if you are designing a motherboard or something like that?
If you want to pay, mentor is probably the safest bet. It is a pain, but it will not let you make many mistakes. I am now using altium designer and it has so many options that you can get yourself in trouble really quick.
It will take you 6 months to a year to really learn a new CAD tool depending on its complexity. For hobbyist, students and even small companies I highly recommend kicad. Don’t let the free price tag fool you. It can do “real” work.
Of course it's never like that. We all want the smallest board and the least layers to keep costs down. Then it's down to jiggling components around and routing by hand to squeeze everything in. I have never talked to a PCB designer that had anything good to say about auto-routers.
Now is the time to try Kicad. They just hit version 4 with a lot of improvements. More importantly it should be long term stable after a lot of turmoil in development.
That would be David Manns and John Fallows. The first directors of Westdev Ltd which is http://pulsonix.com/
Brilliant chaps the pair of them.
Interestingly Racal-Redac had an even bigger more expensive PCB suite for Unix workstations, Visula. The CadStar product for the PC was sort of looked down on as a "toy". Visula does not seem to exist anymore.
like I said I did IC design for 20 years as a contractor. so at least 20 different companys, and avoided learning or doing PCB work.
persent compnay accepted of course :-D