... Anyway, a week ago I had a revelation, perhaps a conversion. More on that later, maybe...
... I'm looking forward to a Windows Surface Pro 4 with Win 10 for Christmas. What about y'all? ...
Now I am getting nervous @heater., first that conference and now this?
Did you got brainwashed? What did the evil MS did to our @Heater? Do you need help? Do we need some kick starter to save @Heater?
Hopefully they did not kidnapped the original @Heater. and left us with a clone?
Is there a Google hangout or equivalent where "the gang" could meet up and duke it out occasionally, no holds barred? It would be interesting to see whether blowing off steam elsewhere would lead to more or less civility here.
Don't FTDI devices have unique serial numbers or something?
Funny thing though, and I'd forgotten this, last week I removed a USB 3.0 flash drive from one of the two front panel USB 3.0 ports. Plugged it back in about an hour later to the other USB 3.0 port and got that annoying message about how this device could run faster if plugged into a super speed (or whatever they call it) port...
Thing is, both of those ports connect to the same USB 3.0 port on the motherboard through the same cable.
Guys, This a Parallax forum. Let's keep it to problems when using Windows with Parallax products and nothing more.
Okay, then. Maybe someone can explain why, under Win7, when I plug in an FTDI USB-to-serial converter that it hasn't seen before, it thinks it has to download a new driver for it. WinXP was smart enough to recognize that the driver that was already installed would work for all FTDI serial parts; and it took seconds, rather than minutes, for the new COM port to be ready to use.
-Phil
That's one of the most annoying things about Windows, although there are lots of others. It "bing bongs" for every little USB device I plug in, even dumb flash drives, trumpeting to the world its wonderful ability to "find a driver", "installing driver", finally "device ready" (hopefully). Then if it's an FTDI device I have to go and open device manager to find out which comport it stuck it on. Linux is not that fancy at all, it just works the moment you plug it in and the comports always come up in a predictable order, first and any serial plugged in it's /dev/ttyUSB0 and so on.
@moderators: I can't see what the problem is with "discussing" this subject. The subject matter is in keeping with development environments while working on Parallax products. Besides many general discussion subjects have nothing at all to do with Parallax.
But fancy erco chucking a nana over Bill's fat MS baby
Maybe someone can explain why, under Win7, when I plug in an FTDI USB-to-serial converter that it hasn't seen before, it thinks it has to download a new driver for it.
Phil's complaint goes for every USB device on Windoze. At work I get mice triggering driver searches. That incessant "search the internet?" popup gets on my nerves.
There has been no speech I would consider a problem for a long time. I worried about one contributor a little. The speech was fine, how they were getting along with it all may not have been.
A hangout is a great idea. We have never quite made the same vibe since the change.
@heater ...oops, I mean @erco, no. It's not an event. I take some time before engaging in some conversations. That's all.
@all, I have no hard feelings. I do have concerns and that's it. I like everyone here and the concerns are centered on all of that.
I tend to focus on tasks, not meta-tasks. An OS is often a meta-task. If I have to fight with it much, I've got the wrong OS. Same for many apps, etc... Just don't have the time for it. So I keep it all simple, plain vanilla to a large degree and maximize the use value of things more than fight with them as much as I can.
BINGO! One of the better descriptions for why many people still use Windows, to the annoyance of many.
Just like the reasoning the Mac Users used to relay, its just a tool.
You can pry W7 from my cold dead hands on my personal stuff. You have to pay me to use W10 though....
EDIT-- Oops, I guess I went off-topic... er wait a minute.. I thought the last set of TOS discussion said we could go off-topic here?
Good grief Spuds, you may be right. Someone here had a site which I happened across several weeks ago. I think they've abandoned this forum, however theirs was Prop-related, and still running. Can't remember who/where ATM.
Another alternative would be to simply have a Windows thread stickied to the top and push people to post there with problems, venting, etc. People who have an issue could post, people who want to vent could post, people who are tired of Windows threads could ignore. Perfect.
I tend to focus on tasks, not meta-tasks. An OS is often a meta-task. If I have to fight with it much, I've got the wrong OS. Same for many apps, etc... Just don't have the time for it. So I keep it all simple, plain vanilla to a large degree and maximize the use value of things more than fight with them as much as I can.
BINGO! One of the better descriptions for why many people changed to Mac or Linux, to the annoyance of many.
Well... technically, this conversation isn't permitted, unless... (see below)
You both are right! That's the point! IMHO, it's more productive overall when people get multi-os skill under their belts. Take the easy path, get stuff done, don't worry about the OS so much. And how we get those skills will vary, but it's most often tied to some dependency or other.
@Heater, so you can join us on P2 on your nice, shiny, new Surface then? Seems to me, that's a nice upside that might dull the pain a little. Heck, boot Linux, get 'yer work done super fast, then boot Windows, and take up the slack on P2. See? Win win for everybody!
By the way, there is another Parallax tie in that is appropriate here:
SPIN and PASM are very highly influenced by Delphi, and one of the design principles behind Delphi is the concept of low complexity mental state. You have all seen me write, "I don't have to know as much when..." related to SPIN and PASM and when that is compared with other language choices.
I have participated in, reviewed, read about, or heard about many
things purporting to make programming easier. The few that actually did
make things easier had one thing in common, they reduced the number of
concepts the programmer had to keep in their head.
I will add a concept to this great one, and that is, "Easier may also involve managing existing concepts and states to favor existing and effective ones when one must weigh the value of adding or learning or maintaining new ones."
Sometimes, what you know is the best path, even when what you don't know is a more potent, or whatever else may be a better path, or tool set, in an objective sense. The trick on this is we really aren't objective on this the vast majority of the time, and it's due to our current state, it's value, and the change state and it's value. Those are different for all of us.
And this is about the meta-task too. Really, we want the task done, not meta-tasks.
You guys have all seen Chip build on P2 with serious mastery of the concepts, tools, etc... Part of all that is Chip being a freaking genius. But, and we've talked about this in the past, another part of it is being careful to manage the development environment so that everything meshes together. Pnut, being an assembly language program, happens to keep SPIN and PASM simple, due to the low level changes needed. Big, sweeping type changes, or higher degrees of complexity are laborious. Better to use the existing design and only make the changes needed to advance things in a high value way. There are a lot of shared, simple, common expressions, etc... in SPIN + PASM, and that's due how everything is done together. That's a complex thing, and switching a tool in or out can very seriously impact all of that.
Most importantly, moving off that tool chain would mean lots of new concepts, and different tradeoffs in how things get done, and that may actually do harm to the primary task at hand, which is to get P2 development done. Some of the high value attributes in the P1 and the P2 are a direct artifact of how the tools in use can have an impact on the design, and it's goals.
This same "inertia" and what looks like "hysteresis" to me, if you will allow physics to software analogies today, combine to favor different things for different people. Most importantly, something technically superior may cost a person more to adopt than the superior features actually add value! We very often forget that, and we shouldn't.
Finally, I submit it's just not possible to abstract this all away into general terms. How people currently work and what they work with can and does have a very significant impact on how they think, and that impacts the product of their work in sometimes surprising and notable, often high value ways.
And that last bit is why pretty much all of my OS related commentary here is centered on being multi-OS literate. The same goes for apps. Knowing how a word processor or text editor works is far more useful than knowing how a specific one works. However, a specific one, technically superior or not, may well have more value to a given individual than an objective analysis would indicate. Again, this point often lost in discussions like this one, and I've put why that is right here.
Further, in my career dealing with engineering groups, their tools and processes, I've rarely seen a decision made in a vacuum. Technical superiority does not trump common sense use value, existing data, skills, flow, etc... That's "inertia" and we are all familiar with it. 'nuff said.
But, what of this "hysteresis?" In physics terms, this is resistance to change, and in a transformer, the source of heat generated by an alternating current impacting the atoms, who really do want to stay put, but are forced to align over and over... Translated to people, this is all about resistance to change, and I submit that is driven by use value and the conflicting priorities of getting something done; namely, the task, and improving on how it might be done; namely, the meta-tasks. Our "as is" state compared to our "to be" state, essentially.
It is apparent to me, after thinking this whole mess over, that we have made this very human hysteresis personal. That's likely driving some of the need to moderate and the personal friction we see here more than we usually do.
So take a day to think about that, yourself, and how those dynamics play out in your life. I'll bet you find it actually is a lot less personal than we may all think it is, and a lot more driven by use value, how our individual state affects this, and our task goals conflicting with improving on how we actualize them. (meta-tasks)
But that's just me. YMMV. And yes, this is an "on forum" conversation. I reconsidered what I was thinking last night, and decided to put this here for your consideration.
Do I have it wrong? Do tell. All of us will be better for it, if you do.
(Note to moderators, I would have started a thread, but this actually is best done in the current context. Besides, I did lace it with lots of Parallax tie-ins, so there you go. Said I would comply. )
Stay on Topic:
Please maintain the integrity and focus of the original poster’s intent for their post; if a topic derails or if a thread is hijacked it will be subject to moderation. Anytime you feel the discussion requires further consideration on a specific, non-related topic it is okay to start a new thread for that purpose, so long as it adheres to the rules and intent of the Parallax Discussion Forums.
Erco had a specific topic relating to his particular issues with Windows. If your response is not directly related to the specific problems he noted, it is technically off-topic and thus is open to being moderated. Commenting on how you love or hate Windows and MS products is not adding anything relevant to his thread and can be considered thread-hijacking as it leads to other users voicing opinions that are also not related to the original post. Threads regarding operating systems that do not reference a specific problem that involves Parallax software or products should only be made on the forums belonging to that OS such as MS forums or Linux forums; they only cause heavy moderating and incite strong reactions here. As the quote above mentions, posts should adhere to the intent of these forum, which is "to support all Parallax customers of any experience level in their use of Parallax products." (This intent is visibly spelled out in the Rules and Guidelines.)
As Erco has not contributed to the conversation today I believe this thread has run its course and I will now be sinking it. Erco, if you disagree you may PM me directly as you are the OP and are welcome to make a case for why it should be allowed to continue.
We cannot and will not moderate everything, but certain proven-volatile topics will always draw our scrutiny. This is one of those topics.
According to the HP website my laptops are too old so HP hasn't tested Windows 10 drivers.
The classical battle between hardware and software manufacturers.
I looked and of course there isn't an audio driver for Windows 10.
I have an old Samsung Laser printer that I only power on when I need it and even though I use it all the time stupid Windows 7 sometimes gives me an unrecognized device message. I either have to remove and reinsert the USB cable or power it off, wait a moment, and then power it back on.
So far I've never had a problem with Parallax products though.
Erco, the hard drive on that first computer may be failing so use Device "Mangler" to find the model and download the diagnostic program for that manufacturer. Your computer manufacturer may also have a diagnostic disk which is nice to have if you suspect any hardware issues. I have a feeling that since you are using Vista that computer is too old for Windows 10 and that drivers will be your biggest issue.
Since the kids computers are new I would call Toshiba Tech Support.
My son ended up with one of these tiny HDD computers. Two things got me out of that update mess.
1. Compress the whole drive. Took a night.
2. The win 10 appeared to be some upgrade, which left an old.windows directory. I deleted this, which freed more than enough to allow other update processes to proceed normally.
As a fall back, you can copy the old.windows directory, if it exists, onto an external disk, should you find you need it. I didn't do this, and that little computer has updated just fine.
Secondly, once you've completed the drive compression, you get the ongoing benefit of it on that small SSD. Since it's an SSD, you won't see much, if any slowdown either. The little computer I sorted actually ran a bit better. Go figure.
I've had to do this on every "made for Windows 8+" machine, when downgrading to Win 7. It's valid for doing the opposite too, seeking Windows 10 drivers for older hardware.
Additionally, Windows 10 can use Windows 7 drivers, as well as other drivers in compatability mode.
A search by device ID will typically lead you to the vendor site, where reference or "design" drivers are hosted for a variety of OSes. A further search for chipset can yield third party drivers that may well work just fine. Almost everything has a Win 7 driver at this point. So far, I've not seen that effort repeated with the newer OS. Computer vendor tested drivers are typically these drivers, tweaked a little, or bundled in some way. In most cases, you get the basic functionality with the reference ones produced by the hardware vendor.
For consumer grade HP laptops, I've had to do some variation of the above for USB, Audio, Wireless...
If you need to upgrade/add/replace drives, look at the Kingston V300 SSDs. You can usually get the 120 GB version for under $50 (free ship) at Newegg. I've been putting them in everything and have had good luck with them so far.
I got Win10 on a Toshiba Excite Mini 7" tablet with 16GB eMMC drive.
Important to note that most of the Win8/Win8.1 tablets and notebooks use what's known as WIMBOOT, which uses a recovery partition to store the system image in a compressed format. System updates either contain patches that are overlaid on top of the image during normal operation, or may write a new WIMBOOT image. Benefit is it's generally easy to restore to factory state. Downside is about 4-6GB drive space lost for the recovery image and if the image gets corrupted you can't repair / restore.
What I went through, and this is starting with clean factory provided recovery image, and to Win10 10240:
1) Factory image is Win8, so I installed all updates, including the upgrade to Win8.1.
2) Got prompted to upgrade to Win10 and accepted.
3) Upgrade said I needed more drive space but I couldn't free enough space so tried to use a micro SD card. Upgrade tried to use it but on first boot, stalled at about 30% for 2 days.
4) Restarted, install undid itself and went back to 8.1, and I tried again with same result. Turns out that on the reboot, it didn't have the drivers available for the SD slot so couldn't copy from it.
... so then I:
1) Backed up important data and fully charged the tablet.
2) Using another PC, ran MS' Media Creation Tool mentioned in my previous post here and created bootable USB drive for another PC, and used 32 bit Win10 since the tablet has only 1GB ram. Note that 10240 was the latest build at that time. See comment below. Also, downloaded the relevant drivers for the system from the vendor to another USB stick. Many drivers are device specific and may include touchscreen, WiFi / Bluetooth, and such as well as system drivers for the chipset, video, power management, accelerometer and "function key" drivers.
3) Connected the USB drive, a keyboard and mouse to a powered hub and connected hub to the tablet with a USB OTG cable. This is necessary since many device drivers and such are vendor specific and are not included in the basic Win10 image, as mentioned in step 2, therefore some method for interacting with the computer is required.
4) While pressing the "Volume Up" button, pressed and held the Power button: tablet came up with a boot selection screen and I chose the USB drive. Actual procedure to get to the UEFI / Bios boot selection may vary.
5) Proceeded with the Windows installation, including deleting all partitions.
6) I was not prompted to enter a key during installation. If you are prompted, do not enter anything and skip it. It may pick up a previous activation if you used a Microsoft Account to log in under Win8.1, or get the embedded key from the device when all the drivers are installed.
7) Shut down and re-charge the battery if necessary.
8 ) Removed the Win10 USB stick and inserted the one with drivers and proceeded to install drivers and such, preferentially installing vendor supplied drivers over any Windows Update tried to install.
*The latest Win10 build is supposed to be more friendly to constrained devices and is what should be downloaded with the latest MCT. Therefore, the troubles and procedures mentioned above may not be required or may be different.
Win10 Threshold 2 update bricked my brand new Toshiba laptop today. Just keeps rebooting endlessly now. The Office Depot wizards worked on it for 2 hours then refunded my money. Case closed.
Now I go cleanin' windows to earn an honest bob
For a nosy parker it's an interestin' job
Now it's a job that just suits me
A window cleaner you would be
If you can see what I can see
When I'm cleanin' windows
I'm sure modern day Windows cleaners in PC shops get to see a lot of interesting things as well
Comments
Duly noted and agree.
Now I am getting nervous @heater., first that conference and now this?
Did you got brainwashed? What did the evil MS did to our @Heater? Do you need help? Do we need some kick starter to save @Heater?
Hopefully they did not kidnapped the original @Heater. and left us with a clone?
very concerned!
Mike
Sometimes we get too broad in a discussion of an Operating System.
If any one can help erco get his units back to operating status to load BS and Propellor software back to working condition, please have at it.
Sticks and stones...
-Phil
Funny thing though, and I'd forgotten this, last week I removed a USB 3.0 flash drive from one of the two front panel USB 3.0 ports. Plugged it back in about an hour later to the other USB 3.0 port and got that annoying message about how this device could run faster if plugged into a super speed (or whatever they call it) port...
Thing is, both of those ports connect to the same USB 3.0 port on the motherboard through the same cable.
That's one of the most annoying things about Windows, although there are lots of others. It "bing bongs" for every little USB device I plug in, even dumb flash drives, trumpeting to the world its wonderful ability to "find a driver", "installing driver", finally "device ready" (hopefully). Then if it's an FTDI device I have to go and open device manager to find out which comport it stuck it on. Linux is not that fancy at all, it just works the moment you plug it in and the comports always come up in a predictable order, first and any serial plugged in it's /dev/ttyUSB0 and so on.
@moderators: I can't see what the problem is with "discussing"
But fancy erco chucking a nana over Bill's fat MS baby
Because FTDI.
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/ftdi-driver-kills-fake-ftdi-ft232/
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/10/24/ftdi_bricking_driver_response/
Nobody should be using FTDI devices after that shenanigans.
A hangout is a great idea. We have never quite made the same vibe since the change.
@heater ...oops, I mean @erco, no. It's not an event. I take some time before engaging in some conversations. That's all.
@all, I have no hard feelings. I do have concerns and that's it. I like everyone here and the concerns are centered on all of that.
BINGO! One of the better descriptions for why many people still use Windows, to the annoyance of many.
Just like the reasoning the Mac Users used to relay, its just a tool.
You can pry W7 from my cold dead hands on my personal stuff. You have to pay me to use W10 though....
EDIT-- Oops, I guess I went off-topic... er wait a minute.. I thought the last set of TOS discussion said we could go off-topic here?
Good grief Spuds, you may be right. Someone here had a site which I happened across several weeks ago. I think they've abandoned this forum, however theirs was Prop-related, and still running. Can't remember who/where ATM.
Another alternative would be to simply have a Windows thread stickied to the top and push people to post there with problems, venting, etc. People who have an issue could post, people who want to vent could post, people who are tired of Windows threads could ignore. Perfect.
You both are right! That's the point! IMHO, it's more productive overall when people get multi-os skill under their belts. Take the easy path, get stuff done, don't worry about the OS so much. And how we get those skills will vary, but it's most often tied to some dependency or other.
@Heater, so you can join us on P2 on your nice, shiny, new Surface then? Seems to me, that's a nice upside that might dull the pain a little. Heck, boot Linux, get 'yer work done super fast, then boot Windows, and take up the slack on P2. See? Win win for everybody!
By the way, there is another Parallax tie in that is appropriate here:
SPIN and PASM are very highly influenced by Delphi, and one of the design principles behind Delphi is the concept of low complexity mental state. You have all seen me write, "I don't have to know as much when..." related to SPIN and PASM and when that is compared with other language choices.
See this: https://news.encinc.com/2015/12/15/Simplicity-isn't-simple--Delphi's-design-principles-51080
I will add a concept to this great one, and that is, "Easier may also involve managing existing concepts and states to favor existing and effective ones when one must weigh the value of adding or learning or maintaining new ones."
Sometimes, what you know is the best path, even when what you don't know is a more potent, or whatever else may be a better path, or tool set, in an objective sense. The trick on this is we really aren't objective on this the vast majority of the time, and it's due to our current state, it's value, and the change state and it's value. Those are different for all of us.
And this is about the meta-task too. Really, we want the task done, not meta-tasks.
You guys have all seen Chip build on P2 with serious mastery of the concepts, tools, etc... Part of all that is Chip being a freaking genius. But, and we've talked about this in the past, another part of it is being careful to manage the development environment so that everything meshes together. Pnut, being an assembly language program, happens to keep SPIN and PASM simple, due to the low level changes needed. Big, sweeping type changes, or higher degrees of complexity are laborious. Better to use the existing design and only make the changes needed to advance things in a high value way. There are a lot of shared, simple, common expressions, etc... in SPIN + PASM, and that's due how everything is done together. That's a complex thing, and switching a tool in or out can very seriously impact all of that.
Most importantly, moving off that tool chain would mean lots of new concepts, and different tradeoffs in how things get done, and that may actually do harm to the primary task at hand, which is to get P2 development done. Some of the high value attributes in the P1 and the P2 are a direct artifact of how the tools in use can have an impact on the design, and it's goals.
This same "inertia" and what looks like "hysteresis" to me, if you will allow physics to software analogies today, combine to favor different things for different people. Most importantly, something technically superior may cost a person more to adopt than the superior features actually add value! We very often forget that, and we shouldn't.
Finally, I submit it's just not possible to abstract this all away into general terms. How people currently work and what they work with can and does have a very significant impact on how they think, and that impacts the product of their work in sometimes surprising and notable, often high value ways.
And that last bit is why pretty much all of my OS related commentary here is centered on being multi-OS literate. The same goes for apps. Knowing how a word processor or text editor works is far more useful than knowing how a specific one works. However, a specific one, technically superior or not, may well have more value to a given individual than an objective analysis would indicate. Again, this point often lost in discussions like this one, and I've put why that is right here.
Further, in my career dealing with engineering groups, their tools and processes, I've rarely seen a decision made in a vacuum. Technical superiority does not trump common sense use value, existing data, skills, flow, etc... That's "inertia" and we are all familiar with it. 'nuff said.
But, what of this "hysteresis?" In physics terms, this is resistance to change, and in a transformer, the source of heat generated by an alternating current impacting the atoms, who really do want to stay put, but are forced to align over and over... Translated to people, this is all about resistance to change, and I submit that is driven by use value and the conflicting priorities of getting something done; namely, the task, and improving on how it might be done; namely, the meta-tasks. Our "as is" state compared to our "to be" state, essentially.
It is apparent to me, after thinking this whole mess over, that we have made this very human hysteresis personal. That's likely driving some of the need to moderate and the personal friction we see here more than we usually do.
So take a day to think about that, yourself, and how those dynamics play out in your life. I'll bet you find it actually is a lot less personal than we may all think it is, and a lot more driven by use value, how our individual state affects this, and our task goals conflicting with improving on how we actualize them. (meta-tasks)
But that's just me. YMMV. And yes, this is an "on forum" conversation. I reconsidered what I was thinking last night, and decided to put this here for your consideration.
Do I have it wrong? Do tell. All of us will be better for it, if you do.
(Note to moderators, I would have started a thread, but this actually is best done in the current context. Besides, I did lace it with lots of Parallax tie-ins, so there you go. Said I would comply.
Didn't Bill G put the "Win" in Windows?
Erco had a specific topic relating to his particular issues with Windows. If your response is not directly related to the specific problems he noted, it is technically off-topic and thus is open to being moderated. Commenting on how you love or hate Windows and MS products is not adding anything relevant to his thread and can be considered thread-hijacking as it leads to other users voicing opinions that are also not related to the original post. Threads regarding operating systems that do not reference a specific problem that involves Parallax software or products should only be made on the forums belonging to that OS such as MS forums or Linux forums; they only cause heavy moderating and incite strong reactions here. As the quote above mentions, posts should adhere to the intent of these forum, which is "to support all Parallax customers of any experience level in their use of Parallax products." (This intent is visibly spelled out in the Rules and Guidelines.)
As Erco has not contributed to the conversation today I believe this thread has run its course and I will now be sinking it. Erco, if you disagree you may PM me directly as you are the OP and are welcome to make a case for why it should be allowed to continue.
We cannot and will not moderate everything, but certain proven-volatile topics will always draw our scrutiny. This is one of those topics.
The classical battle between hardware and software manufacturers.
I looked and of course there isn't an audio driver for Windows 10.
I have an old Samsung Laser printer that I only power on when I need it and even though I use it all the time stupid Windows 7 sometimes gives me an unrecognized device message. I either have to remove and reinsert the USB cable or power it off, wait a moment, and then power it back on.
So far I've never had a problem with Parallax products though.
Erco, the hard drive on that first computer may be failing so use Device "Mangler" to find the model and download the diagnostic program for that manufacturer. Your computer manufacturer may also have a diagnostic disk which is nice to have if you suspect any hardware issues. I have a feeling that since you are using Vista that computer is too old for Windows 10 and that drivers will be your biggest issue.
Since the kids computers are new I would call Toshiba Tech Support.
Did you try these yet for little computer #2?
My son ended up with one of these tiny HDD computers. Two things got me out of that update mess.
1. Compress the whole drive. Took a night.
2. The win 10 appeared to be some upgrade, which left an old.windows directory. I deleted this, which freed more than enough to allow other update processes to proceed normally.
As a fall back, you can copy the old.windows directory, if it exists, onto an external disk, should you find you need it. I didn't do this, and that little computer has updated just fine.
Secondly, once you've completed the drive compression, you get the ongoing benefit of it on that small SSD. Since it's an SSD, you won't see much, if any slowdown either. The little computer I sorted actually ran a bit better. Go figure.
http://www.howtogeek.com/193798/how-to-find-drivers-for-unknown-devices-in-the-device-manager/
I've had to do this on every "made for Windows 8+" machine, when downgrading to Win 7. It's valid for doing the opposite too, seeking Windows 10 drivers for older hardware.
Additionally, Windows 10 can use Windows 7 drivers, as well as other drivers in compatability mode.
http://ccm.net/faq/24611-installing-a-driver-in-compatibility-mode-in-windows-7
A search by device ID will typically lead you to the vendor site, where reference or "design" drivers are hosted for a variety of OSes. A further search for chipset can yield third party drivers that may well work just fine. Almost everything has a Win 7 driver at this point. So far, I've not seen that effort repeated with the newer OS. Computer vendor tested drivers are typically these drivers, tweaked a little, or bundled in some way. In most cases, you get the basic functionality with the reference ones produced by the hardware vendor.
For consumer grade HP laptops, I've had to do some variation of the above for USB, Audio, Wireless...
Touche!
Important to note that most of the Win8/Win8.1 tablets and notebooks use what's known as WIMBOOT, which uses a recovery partition to store the system image in a compressed format. System updates either contain patches that are overlaid on top of the image during normal operation, or may write a new WIMBOOT image. Benefit is it's generally easy to restore to factory state. Downside is about 4-6GB drive space lost for the recovery image and if the image gets corrupted you can't repair / restore.
What I went through, and this is starting with clean factory provided recovery image, and to Win10 10240:
1) Factory image is Win8, so I installed all updates, including the upgrade to Win8.1.
2) Got prompted to upgrade to Win10 and accepted.
3) Upgrade said I needed more drive space but I couldn't free enough space so tried to use a micro SD card. Upgrade tried to use it but on first boot, stalled at about 30% for 2 days.
4) Restarted, install undid itself and went back to 8.1, and I tried again with same result. Turns out that on the reboot, it didn't have the drivers available for the SD slot so couldn't copy from it.
... so then I:
1) Backed up important data and fully charged the tablet.
2) Using another PC, ran MS' Media Creation Tool mentioned in my previous post here and created bootable USB drive for another PC, and used 32 bit Win10 since the tablet has only 1GB ram. Note that 10240 was the latest build at that time. See comment below. Also, downloaded the relevant drivers for the system from the vendor to another USB stick. Many drivers are device specific and may include touchscreen, WiFi / Bluetooth, and such as well as system drivers for the chipset, video, power management, accelerometer and "function key" drivers.
3) Connected the USB drive, a keyboard and mouse to a powered hub and connected hub to the tablet with a USB OTG cable. This is necessary since many device drivers and such are vendor specific and are not included in the basic Win10 image, as mentioned in step 2, therefore some method for interacting with the computer is required.
4) While pressing the "Volume Up" button, pressed and held the Power button: tablet came up with a boot selection screen and I chose the USB drive. Actual procedure to get to the UEFI / Bios boot selection may vary.
5) Proceeded with the Windows installation, including deleting all partitions.
6) I was not prompted to enter a key during installation. If you are prompted, do not enter anything and skip it. It may pick up a previous activation if you used a Microsoft Account to log in under Win8.1, or get the embedded key from the device when all the drivers are installed.
7) Shut down and re-charge the battery if necessary.
8 ) Removed the Win10 USB stick and inserted the one with drivers and proceeded to install drivers and such, preferentially installing vendor supplied drivers over any Windows Update tried to install.
*The latest Win10 build is supposed to be more friendly to constrained devices and is what should be downloaded with the latest MCT. Therefore, the troubles and procedures mentioned above may not be required or may be different.
Now I go cleanin' windows to earn an honest bob
For a nosy parker it's an interestin' job
Now it's a job that just suits me
A window cleaner you would be
If you can see what I can see
When I'm cleanin' windows
I'm sure modern day Windows cleaners in PC shops get to see a lot of interesting things as well