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either here or there. — Parallax Forums

either here or there.

I realize true geology can't be done @ this resolution.

I found this tilling up the garden quite a few years back, what I consider striations are visible to me, it measures 1.990" x 1.250" and weighs 36.7 grams, non metallic, no visible corrosion but looks like it has been in the ground awhile, even after cleaning, tiller tine damage is visible.

I have had a few people look at this and give me nothing to pin them on, I figured if I posted this in general discussion's, there is plenty of intellect here to make a vary educated evaluation.
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Comments

  • I meant non magnetic, sorry.
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2015-12-06 04:00
    Somebody will jump in an identify it as Leaverite, so it might as well be me.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaverite

    Fossil or Not a Fossil?
    Man-made or Not Man-made (like concrete, brick, glass, or slag)?

    If you really want to do some formal work, a scratch test of hardness would be a useful intial test to disqualify a lot of possiblities. And you might read up on the geology of the region where it was found, as the knowledge about the context is useful.

    Is it sedimentary, metamorphic, or igneous? http://www.classzone.com/books/earth_science/terc/content/investigations/es0602/es0602page01.cfm

    You might fracture it, or cut it in half with a rock saw to get an unweathered view that can be view under magnification.

    ++++++
    Hopefully you aren't going to ask use how to identify plants, fungus, and lichens next. The topics are huge.
  • Sorry Loopy if you didn't see the additional post, this is a solid hard metal, scratch test can be done, but bending it will require a vice and channel locks.
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2015-12-06 04:28
    It looks like slag waste. Any industry around that could contribute to such litter? If that is the case, it is an amagam of metals.

    With metals - you simply have pure, alloy, and amagam. Take a file to the surface and seem if you can get a look at something not weathered. The surface corrosion interfers with any real identification.

    The problem here is that even in a wilderness, an old home site will have old trash dumps that could contribute anything to the soil that may not be of local origin. Cleaning out an old fireplace could offer up something like this and maybe someone thought they were adding just wood ash to the garden soil. Alternatively, someone might of burned a trash heap.

    Measure volume by seeing how much water it displaces. Measure weight. And then you can get an indication of the actual density. That will point the way toward an answer.

    After exposing a clean surface, there are tests that can be done with acids for further identification.

    I guess you see why I never get any microcontroller projects done. I have too many other interests as well.
  • You are right Loopy, I have never found any buried treasure here, I went over this property with a metal detector, it was an exausting waste of time, old canning jar lids, horse shoes, broken tractor parts, ect.
    This seemed to be different, it's weight compared to it's size, the metals brightness beyond the crust on most of the surface, it definitely looks like heat was involved in it's formation, I will perform a couple of tests you had mentioned, as far as displacement, I will have to make a graduated cylinder, it was tested for precious metal, if a surface grind and a closer look with a camera prove interesting, I will have to purchase the chemicals for further testing.
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2015-12-06 14:52
    Actually, if you have someone that buys precious metals near you, you could simply take it to that guy and he has an electronic machine that will assay the metal in a few seconds. It doesn't have to be pure to be valuable. And it might be something oddball that is still high value, such as a platinum group metal (palladium, rhodium, platinum, etc.)

    http://www.skyrayxrf.com/precious-metals.php

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallurgical_assay

    I'd check density first as aluminum is much lighter than high value metals. Try referring a periodic table and work with the assumption that it is nearly pure. That is just a way to ballpark what it is. Could be nickel, or cadium as well.

    It may be low melting point pot metal. This was used to make fancy castings that were chromed and put on cars, like the little mustang images on a Ford Mustang.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pot_metal

    Hardness testing is cheap and easy. If it is light and has a high melting point, it could be titanium -- but I have my doubts as that is very hard to melt and used to be very expensive.
  • I went and polished it then weighed it again, dah, some scientist I would make, I picked an area already hit by the tiller and didn't remove much, it is tough stuff and would polish nicely.

    Weight was measured @ 36.75 grams, 1.29 ounces, 23.6 dwt (pennyweight), and a displacement as shown in my crudementry make shift chem lab, a.k.a. kitchen. The wife said, "what the h___ are you doing now". But I swear if this is slag of some sort, I will be embarressed to waste people's time.
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  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2015-12-06 18:00
    There was a time when people melted there own bullets for ammunition and fishing weights. It could be lead.

    Or before the 1950s, if you wanted to replace the main bearings on an automotive engine (or tractor) you would melt your own babbit linings into the bearing caps. Babbitt is an alloy of toxic metals. After doing a pour, a mechanic might just pour the rest on the gound and save it for a later project.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babbitt_(metal)
  • There was a time when people melted there own bullets for ammunition and fishing weights. It could be lead.

    Or before the 1950s, if you wanted to replace the main bearings on an automotive engine (or tractor) you would melt your own babbit linings into the bearing caps. Babbitt is an alloy of toxic metals. After doing a pour, a mechanic might just pour the rest on the gound and save it for a later project.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babbitt_(metal)

    Definitely not lead, babbit metal is interesting.
  • xanaduxanadu Posts: 3,347
    edited 2015-12-06 21:28
    I have an S1 Titan scanner that could analyze 37 elements if you wanted to mail a couple grams of it.

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  • xanadu wrote: »
    I have an S1 Titan scanner that could analyze 37 elements if you wanted to mail a couple grams of it.

    Wow I bet that would solve it, All you need is fileings? There is something not normally in one's toolbox.
  • It could, I haven't tried it on anything out of the ground but now I probably will. It's a lot of fun. When you turn it on it has to cool down instead of warm up.
  • Is radiation involved? What's the sensor? That would be fun to play with.

    _mike
  • I PM'd my address. Yes it's x-ray. Here's a link.

  • I know the table of elements has changed since I was in school, how many known metals does that cover? Not sure how to find a PM here.
  • I found it, and signed my self out at the same time, I'm always hitting some place on this phone I shouldn't.
  • I was wondering about imbedded elements in my files, a new file would be the best idea.
  • If you look on the table it can detect everything from magnesium to uranium. In addition to detecting it can also tell you the quantity of 37 of those elements.
  • skylightskylight Posts: 1,915
    edited 2015-12-07 10:06
    Um just a thought but have you had a gieger counter check it, wouldnt want something radioactive in the house, perhaps its a meteorite?
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2015-12-07 17:50
    MikeDYur wrote: »
    I know the table of elements has changed since I was in school, how many known metals does that cover? Not sure how to find a PM here.

    About 75% percent of all known elements are considered metal.

    Babbitt metal has antimony in it, which is toxic. And pot metal might have cadium or other toxic metals. All this stuff was heavily produced before the environmental awareness of the 1960s and 70s kicked it. It easily looks that old and the context screams 'old rural dump'. Have you found a lot of old glass bottles? That would confirm the context.

    Babbitt is indeed interesting. Everyone knows that you add salt to water to drop the freezing point, and add antifreeze to drop the freezing point. But freeze point is almost the same as melting point. Same admixtures raise the boiling point. That's why modern cars require 100% anti-freeze, better boil prevention.

    When you mix metals into an alloy, you drop their melting point which has a molten state that is similar to a solution of a solvent such as water and whatever is discolved, and the solid state is just freezing at a temperture different than water.

    This is called molar depression freezing point and can be determined by how much materials is disolves in the solvent. It is a bit wierd to think of metals as solvents, but seems to apply when molten.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    That is an amazing fact, Loopy, that I never thought much about before.

    I mean, hydrogen is a metal, who'd a thought it?

    Getting down to it's freezing point so we can have some nice hydrogen ingots might be a bit tricky.
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2015-12-07 17:54
    Well, after checking with LInus Pauling's General Chemistry, the elements are metals, metaloids, and non-metals.

    Here is a link to a picture for Heater to sort out.

    http://www.angelo.edu/faculty/kboudrea/periodic/physical_metals.htm

    If it is near the mass of iron, it may be a metorite.
    http://geology.com/meteorites/meteorite-types-and-classification.shtml
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    Thanks Loopy,

    I'm familiar with such pictures. Only I had not thought so hard about how many metals there were in there before.

    Don't forget the Lanthanides and Actinides now.

  • skylight wrote: »
    Um just a thought but have you had a gieger counter check it, wouldnt want something radioactive in the house, perhaps its a meteorite?

    I have had in the house for eight to ten years, if it is hot or carried an alien plague, I'm a gonner.
    About 75% percent of all known elements are considered metal.

    Babbitt metal has antimony in it, which is toxic. And pot metal might have cadium or other toxic metals. All this stuff was heavily produced before the environmental awareness of the 1960s and 70s kicked it. It easily looks that old and the context screams 'old rural dump'. Have you found a lot of old glass bottles? That would confirm the context.

    I find glass any time I dig a hole, just broken pieces here or there, this used to be a sixty acre farm before the 50s, that's what they done back then, out of sight out of mind,
    xanadu wrote: »
    If you look on the table it can detect everything from magnesium to uranium. In addition to detecting it can also tell you the quantity of 37 of those elements.

    I will get that sample off to you tomorrow, I want to take it to the post office for delivery, it will get out quicker, just couldn't do it after work, the feet said "No Go".

    Thanks,
    _mike
  • Glass? whole containers can date a garbage dump. Dig deeper and things get older. you have shifted from geology to archeology.

    Why ask how many metals exist? metallurgy and material science. I am not an EE. I think about a wider scope of discover
  • I researched at least 10 different families that lived on this property in the last two hundred years, they got rid of their trash some way, I have dug quite a bit on this land and never ran in to a pile of trash, just small items scattered here and there.

    @xanadu, The sample is at the P.O., and will go out this evening, I tried to keep as sterile of environment as possible, but traces of aluminum might be found, I used an unused spot on my file and taped the rest up, material clogged the file easily kind of like a soft aluminum, just to heavy for that. Please take the precautions necessary, in case it's what Loopy suggested, babbet metal.
  • Nice, I'll keep an eye out for a glowing bag of questionable material melting the mailbox around it :)
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2015-12-08 21:18
    A friend of mine was once scanning around his garden with a geiger counter. As geeks do. He homed in on an area that was "fizzing" a lot. Ended up digging up a square foot of turf. He then laid it out on the kitchen table and started dividing it up, by half, by half again, and so on. Each time checking which half had the "fizz" in it.

    End result was a tiny, hardly visible, speck that sent the counter off the scale!

    I don't know if that had anything to do with him living within sight of the Sellafield nuclear fuel reprocessing plant :)
  • Heater. wrote: »
    End result was a tiny, hardly visible, speck that sent the counter off the scale!

    I don't know if that had anything to do with him living within sight of the Sellafield nuclear fuel reprocessing plant :)




    That is scary, can't be natural? How do you dispose of it? Call a government agency and you might have a fiasco. And I was worried about radon.
  • These are great for pranks - http://www.ebay.com/itm/URANINITE-Uranium-natural-ore-Cold-War-Mines-MOAB-UTAH-/321938922155?hash=item4af50e1aab:g:psoAAOSwys5WU-G1

    If you have a friend with a garden and a Geiger you're all set haha.
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