A free "Just Works" OS???
Rsadeika
Posts: 3,837
Since I now have a Gigabyte Brix box available for doing some testing, I thought I would try to narrow down an OS that "Just Works". I also went out and bought a USB-cd/dvd player, now I can use some of the live disks that are available. I know that there are a bunch of different OSes that are being used by the forum members, which means my search should be narrowed down quite a bit with participation by the forum members. Now for the criteria:
- Free, I guess their are different meanings associated with this, the OS installs to the computer with no strings attached.
- SimpleIDE, since this is a Parallax forum, this must be able to install with no special magic. Also a Propeller Tool install could be beneficial.
- Network, the browse the network facility has to, browse the complete home network. No ifs, ands, ors, buts about it, which means no editing of special config files to maybe get what you need.
- Printer, this should be as simple as hitting the 'add a printer' command and the printer gets installed, even if it is a network printer. Again, you do not have to apply special magic, or get special files, or search the internet for instructions.
I think that this would be the minimal criteria that anybody would want and need. After you get the "Just Works" OS installed, then the capability to fine tune could be a plus. Today is an open day for me, so I am willing to try all reasonable suggestions that meet the criteria.
Ray
- Free, I guess their are different meanings associated with this, the OS installs to the computer with no strings attached.
- SimpleIDE, since this is a Parallax forum, this must be able to install with no special magic. Also a Propeller Tool install could be beneficial.
- Network, the browse the network facility has to, browse the complete home network. No ifs, ands, ors, buts about it, which means no editing of special config files to maybe get what you need.
- Printer, this should be as simple as hitting the 'add a printer' command and the printer gets installed, even if it is a network printer. Again, you do not have to apply special magic, or get special files, or search the internet for instructions.
I think that this would be the minimal criteria that anybody would want and need. After you get the "Just Works" OS installed, then the capability to fine tune could be a plus. Today is an open day for me, so I am willing to try all reasonable suggestions that meet the criteria.
Ray
Comments
Wait a minute. There is Minix3, and then there is FreeDos. Those are certainly not Linux. They are somewhat primative and limited by today's standards. FreeBSD may not be Linux... I am not quite sure about that. None of this might install Simple IDE as I suspect binaries have only been compiled in Windows, Linux, and OSx
http://www.minix3.org/
http://www.freedos.org/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_BSD_operating_systems
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The short Linux story is that Debian, Fedora, or OpenSUSE remain major anchor points of stability amongsts all the Linux distribuitions. Anything worth learning in depth should be able to stick around long enough for you to become an expert.
Try www.distrowatch.com for all and everything Linux that might be available. But trying a bit of this and a bit of that is destined to leave one with a bit of a hangover. It just seems that in the open source world, there is always someone that wants to create their 'something special' form of Linux. That side of things is a distraction.
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A simple "Add printer" inclusive of a network printer? Well, I'd love that too, but so far I have to keep a note in a .txt file to remind me how to get my printer installed.
A. the Fuji-Xerox printer is not listed, I have to sellect a Brother printer that I don't own.
B. getting tied into the socket:9100 of the software daemon installed in my router which connects to my 'network printer' is a bit technical and hard to remember.
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In Debian, I have to deal with additionally installing Skype and Adobe Flash. And I think that Adobe decided to refuse to support Linux and is now withholding any Adobe product from Linux.
But in Fedora, the Adobe Flash comes installed (Why I dunno?).
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There is the boot-leg pirated Free WindowsXP out there. That sounds like what you truly desire. But I am afraid that I don't know how to hook you up with the XP underworld.
I just find it wonderful that I can always get someone on line to help me with any real Linux problem. There are some nice people that are willing to help.
Obviously that statement is a bit exaggerated - there are plenty of other reasons MS remains in business. But you get the point. If you want free, you have to accept that you might need to do a little bit of work yourself.
I recommend Ubuntu. Full, straight-up Ubuntu. Maybe you don't like the UI - get over. IF you're able to make Ubuntu do the things you want, then you look at stripping it down. In fact - I wouldn't even strip it down, but rather install a different desktop environment on top of it. Vanilla Ubuntu is extremely well-maintained and there is lots of support. If you do your setup there and then install your favorite desktop environment (like LXDE or Gnome3, or KDE), you might be much better off than trying Xubuntu or Mint straight off the bat.
I do have a book entitled "Degunking Linux" if that appeals to you.
http://shop.oreilly.com/product/9781933097046.do
While I thought the text would really help, it seems that computers really like to accumulate clutter faster than I like to eliminate it. My idea of good computer administration is to have to do as little as possible, and spend the majority of my compuer time actually using the device for my own pleasure and productivity.
http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20080331#feature
Ray
* Free...no strings attached.
The only operating systems I know that fit that bill are the BSD licensed ones. Good luck trying to get any of those to work on your hardware. Anything Linux based contains a lot of software licensed under the GPL which is both "free" and "Free" but does indeed have strings attached (Provide source code if you give the binaries to someone else)
* SimpleIDE
As far as I can tell SimpleIDE gives people issues on Windows, Mac and Linux. It easy enough to get working but I would not bet on it meeting the "click and go" criteria you have set.
* Network, the browse the network facility has to, browse the complete home network. No ifs, ands, ors, buts about it, which means no editing of special config files to maybe get what you need.
I presume you mean Windows shares. Well no. Not unless it's a Windows OS. Again it's easy to do but not "click and go".
* Printer, this should be as simple as hitting the 'add a printer' command...
This convinces me it's a trick question. Recent experience with a new Cannon office printer shows that this is not possible even under Windows. Hmm...Well, I'm anybody and I have managed with personal computers for decades without any of them strictly meeting those criteria. Put your feet up, relax, there is nothing to do under the circumstances
No compromise... twiddling your thumbs...
Here is a list of OSes and includes free ones I may have skipped. But that Simple IDE requirement with easy installation pretty much makes your 'no compromise' a dead end.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_operating_systems
Try to consider the possiblity that a new OS might be a worthy learning experience leading toward better programing.
No one can give you what doesn't exist.
Printers can be a problem even on Windows, though it's pretty unusual.
What may be an issue is dealing with the shares of Windows computers on that network. Which means dealing with the broken MS SMB protocol, which means using Samba which generally means tweaking some configs. Never use it myself.
My Canon network printer sort of works. I can print, but haven't figured out scanning yet. If you want easy printing on your Linux machine, buy HP. They're the only ones that do good Linux support.
SimpleIDE has a debian package. Hard to beat that. Go with a Debian derivative for the best Linux support.
I didn't pay any $$$ for Ubuntu, and that's the only free that I care about.
Sure glad I am not holding my breath on this one. Who would of thought that all the touting of there specific OS, that I am not finding one to meet my "very strict" criteria.
Ray
Which is not to say you can't get close. I'd start with a basic headless install of Debian from an install CD. Add KDE and it's plasma desktop, add smb4k for the network shares, Simple IDE comes in a Debian package now I believe as does PropellerIDE. CUPs will take care of printers, with a bit of work.
Start with Debian Jessie netinst CD here: https://www.debian.org/releases/jessie/debian-installer/
How to use Windows 7 for free for 120 days, legally | Ars Technica
The reason I'm beginning to suspect a hardware issue with Linux on the Brix is because when the file browser has problems almost invariably Firefox has trouble connecting also (as in it can't). What I dislike is the flakiness. I'd much rather have something either work or not work. Instead, it's here now, gone later, maybe I'll be back, maybe I won't.
I guess I'm going to have to move the thing into the room where the router is so I can use a wired connection, or install Linux on the living room computer which already uses a wired connection. One is about as much trouble as the other.
Ray
The USB-cd/dvd player that I bought today is a no power cord needed device, but the interesting part is, I had the Brix turned off, but when I plugged the player into the USB 3.0 socket, the player came alive. It took me by surprise, normally you have to hold the disk in one hand, turn the computer on, hit the cd/dvd player button to open the tray, and then hopefully you can get the thing closed before the BIOS starts to load from the hard drive.
I think I found a suitable dark spot in the basement, and...
Ray
The Brix is never completely off unless it's unplugged.
Oh, you mean a unicorn? Those don't exist in the real world, I'm afraid.
Remember, "Linux" isn't an entity like Microsoft is. It doesn't work the way Microsoft does, and it's not funded the way Microsoft is. Apple too, for that matter. Both of them put specific and non trivial amounts of money on features like the ones you put here. Of course payment is precisely how they happen!
A pretty significant amount of Open Source Software has no funding of any kind, at all!
There are people looking to make some money with Linux, and we see those efforts out there. Aside from enterprise class service and support, there just isn't a lot of money out there for the kinds of things ordinary people want to see in Linux, and that's why using Linux is nearly always an investment in time and configuration for your particular needs.
Once you've done that, Linux is much better as you can frequently repeat it or having done it gets you a long way toward whipping whatever distribution of Linux you are using into some sort of reasonable shape.
I would try a few of them, and whichever gets close, or seems to fit how you think you should be working, drill down on that one and finish it out. Keep your notes and go from there. No Joke. That is generally the most expedient way to get the most out of Linux.
And once you are there, you can stay there for quite some time too. Once in a while, they really break stuff, like the systemd changes rippling through everything right now, or the various incarnations of the X Window System, and it's potential replacements. My advice on stuff like that is to just keep it really simple, and let it all play out.
#2 I use Linux Mint as it "just works" for me but is there any OS that is truly automagic although LM17.2 surprises me many times and just works without any fan-fare. Case in point is where I've plugged a couple of different cheap USB printers in and it sets the device up by itself in seconds, something I can never get my Windows systems to do ever. For other "unsupported" printers you may find some manufacturers support Linux but you need to go to their site, download the package, and install. HP are very good with support. USB serial just works too and you never have to guess what port it's using if you only have one plugged in as they are ttyUSB0, ttyUSB1 etc. Next time with different devices they are ttyUSB0 etc. Simple path names for devices including storage.
Anything that needs real Windows compatibility I run in VirtualBox with a WINXP image that keeps growing and growing over the years especially since now my Windows is very easy to clone onto another machine.
As pointed out, you do need to invest some time as there is always a learning curve with anything new but I'm glad I eventually made the switch many years ago to Linux from Windows after many years of "trying" it. Like dipping your big toe into the cold water it is no gauge or substitute for diving in and after the initial shock you find you enjoy it.
I'm partial to a red hat as well. Still Fedora does not meet the criteria as stated.
It's Free (and free) software but the GPL is an attached string.
How did you install SimpleIDE? I would build it from source on Fedora (or anywhere).
Was it so "click and go" to get the Propeller Tool running under Wine?
I'm willing to bet that our Cannon office printer is just as intransigent under Fedora as Debian or Windows.
Still, I think you have inspired me to give Fedora a go. It's looking good now a days. I gave up on RedHat when they went all "enterprise" but now it looks like Fedora is well supported by RedHat. Also it's been working easily on my AWS instance recently (No Debian available on AWS
Unless there has been a big sea change in Linux world, the printers that include a scanner and maybe even a fax are NOT completely supportted. You will need a Windows or may be an Apple OS to have full support of those all-in-one devices. I don't think that changing to HP will help that situation.
http://www.openprinting.org/printers/
http://www.linux-drivers.org/printer_scanner.html
In general, the wise Linux user will shop for a printer or scanner that is well suppored in Linux as some are NOT supported at all.
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As Robert Heinland said, "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch".
Either you pay for easy-to-use, or you learn for free to use.
"Just works" is an illusion that the proprietary OSes have used to create paying customers.
I still have my box set of RedHat CDs, from 1996 or so, somewhere.
So, where does that leave me, I guess maybe go backwards and dig out freeBASIC, but wait, what's with that "free" part, I guess that is an illusionary concept also. Maybe I am being to subtle, yes I am saying "Free OS", "just works for me", are both and all just an illusion.
Since my time is "priceless":-), I find myself in a very difficult position, which one is really closest to "Free"?
Ray
Anyway Ray, you can continue to play the skeptic but you did ask and we can only tell you what works for us and as for me I'm very happy with my setup. I don't remember asking for a hundred opinions or expecting to find the perfect solution, I just did battle with many approaches. Coming from a long Mac and Windows background I chose to break free and so here my advice is free, my time here is free, and you also are free to choose for yourself.
If someone doesn't need it or use it, in the Open Source world, then there isn't much incentive to make it work unless someone just steps up to it as a challenge or a service to the community. That's one of the reasons you are seeing big companies "sponsor" open source projects and provide time, money and talent to open source communities. They have found a product that "works for them" and it's cheaper to sponsor the project and provide resources than it is to go with their own or some commercial alternative.
In the Propeller community, I tried to be involved in PropGCC and SimpleIDE early on, just because I thought it would be interesting and fun to do. I'm not a C programmer and really have little intention of doing much development in C - it no longer "works for me" so I have little interest at the present.
If someone has an awesome terminal emulator that does all types of terminals except TN3270 and they have no use for 3270 support, they probably won't add it - no need and what they have certainly "works for them".
Most Linux distributions aren't commercial and aren't "funded" like a normal commercial project. If someone in a given community has no interest in windows network support, there is on reason to add it. If someone else comes along and wants to use the distribution and wants windows network support, then all the pieces can be found and they can put it together.
RedHat's current model is interesting in that RedHat is the commercial distribution (pay for support services and subscriptions). Fedora is a more bleeding edge community supported distribution with faster release cycles and more of the leading edge components included in the package. CentOS is the community supported version of RedHat. Very close in features and function but support comes from the community of CentOS users. They are independent entities but share with each other. You will see things get promoted from Fedora to Redhat/CentOS as they become more mainline.
I ended up with Fedora most recently because I was playing with Linux containers (Docker) and Fedora had the most up to date container support integrated into a distribution - didn't need to pull all the pieces together by myself - it "worked for me".
I'm not sure you will find your perfect Free/free OS any more than you will find your perfect commercial OS. Just come close and tweak from there.
For decades now there has been the movement to "Free Software" http://www.fsf.org/ and Open Source Software http://opensource.org/. Commonly summed up as FOSS. Or generally referred to as "Free" rather than "free". (No those capital "F"s I use are not a typo)
"free software" is often free of cost but closed source, think Adobe FLASH. "Free" software is usually free of cost but must be open source.
Far from being a philosophical distinction I think Free Software has many technical and economic advantages. So much so I resist anything else very hard.
So now I see why this thread has gotten into such a muddle. A confusion about the word "free".
Ray seems to be intent on bashing on FOSS and Linux especially because it does not do what he wants without some effort. Well, what can we say? Tough.
Potatohead suggests FOSS is only free of cost if your time is worth nothing. Judging by the hours people spend fettling their Windows machines, or getting the nerdy friend or family member to do it, I think this is totally bogus. If MS had to pay all those nerds for the free support they have given over the decades then MS would be bankrupt!
Ray, roll your sleeves up, install Debian or Fedora on that brick. Join the party
At least the e-book is available 'free' (as in no cost).
http://it-ebooks.info/book/403/
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Linux is empowering over the long haul as nearly anything you really need in a manual can be gotten on-line at no cost. And there are tons of software applications that are also no cost.
And if on-line support is not right for you, you may actually have a local Linux User Group that meets regularly in your area. A few local friends wouldn't hurt. You might get some one-on-one mentoring that clears up your frustrations.
If you had to buy a book, learn a bit, buy software, learn a bit in a proprietary system - you might spend quite a bit of money and learn less.
But Linux certainly expects you to acquire some skills and knowledge that you might not be aware of.