The situation in Taiwan is that cancer is the number one killer and nobody can come to terms with the exact source. Heart attacks might be number 3 or lower. People get deeply upset if I drink the tap water without boiling it, but the same people use tap water unboiled to brush their teeth.
We are just coming out of a summer of Dengue Fever that is worse than ever. Last year I was hospitalized with Dengue Fever for 6 days quarentine, and for another 5-6 days with Chicken Pox.
We have all sorts of products imported to Taiwan and made in Taiwan. But people generalize of what is good and what is bad. After all, if you are selling a second-rate product at cut-rate prices, are you going to admit it is really inferior.
We have had food scandals -- fake extra-virgin olive oil, gutter oil (actually salvaged from cleaning gutters) sold to bakeries as fresh lard oil, McDonald's using frying oil that is discontinued in the USA, and much more.
In my neighborhood, every block has someone offering a coin-operated water fill-up station for safe drinking water. Some have water trucked in from 'high mountain springs'; other claim to be a big reputible brand, such and RO; and other have banks of filters, including UV sterialization.
I suppose that we would call this 'free market enterprise'. So far the only drawback that I may have developed from drinking local water is a kidney stone problem. I also had my gall bladder removed for gall stones.
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The situation in the USA may be a bit saner because anyone can file a civil suit without having to prove merit. Municipal governments do generally work hard to provide safe water. And class action suits can be placed by big law firms. But here the world is very much enamored by technology without quite understanding that some of the high technology available is just marketing hype. Government may be more about getting a civil service job than doing a good job.
The water filter industry reminds me very much of the vacumn cleaner industry. There are some good brands, like Hoover. And then there are some brands that are almost a religion, like Dyson or Kirby.
On my last visit to Thailand, I returned home with a scratch on my leg and it immediately went septic with the foot turning purple and I spent 6 days in the hospital on an IV of antibotics while the Taiwan Center for Disease Control was trying to determine if I had picked up an exotic parasite that resides in the river bank mud of Northern Thailand.
Life is an adventure here. I am enjoying it inspite of the risk.
I am just trying to figure out what's safe, what's hype, and how microcontrollers might enter into making safe water easier to have.
I am sorry if I sounded dismissive of TDS as a methodology. It seems useful, but should be bolstered wtih other tests. I wonder if one should actually use a microscope to see what is in the water. There are USB microscopes that might be helpful.
I'd say a lot of South-east Asis is seriously fearful about air, water, and food quality. But the decisions on how to protect oneself seem less than rational.
I agree with kwinn, can't start till you know what you are up against. If one can't evealuate the problem one can't know if the solutions works.
How but some simple approaches:
1) Take the Forrest Mims idea for measuring atmospheric constituents with different colour LEDs. Such a measurement down a long length of pipe will soon tell you if some unusual Smile is in the water today.
2) Get a microscope and see what is swimming around in there
3) Measure the Ph and electrical conductivity.
There is a reason the Brits drink so much beer. Back in the day it was about the only safe thing to drink. Old habbits die hard
So I should drink only Coca-Cola and beer, and trust the bottlers. Did the Egyptians drink so much beer while building the pyramids for similar reasons?
@Heater
"Few people have the imagination for reality" - Johan Wolfgang von Goethe
The newpapers here report the air polution daily. It would be nice if they did the same for drinking water, but I suspect the government would dislike it.
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I really am interested in finding out if there is an emprical engineered solution that any household could easily manage.
It would be nice if they did the same for drinking water, but I suspect the government would dislike it.
I think you have the seeds of a good idea there.
I'm dealing with a small company in England that makes an air pollution monitor. It's a little brick of a unit that you bolt to the side of a building, give it power and it starts sending atmospheric pollution data back to a cloud service from which it is available to the public.
It's not cheap because the sensors are accurate and calibrated. It's not intended for everyone. BUT companies buy them to bolt onto their offices, schools buy them, apartment buildings buy them. Anyone who has a vested interest in a clean environment buys them.
One by itself is meaningless but when there are many over a city or other area it accumulates a picture of the atmosphere that then has political clout if you want to block a road construction or new factory.
So, forget the water filter thing. Make a water quality meter. Have it publish it's data publicly. If the water supply in your area and indeed large parts of the world is a bad and/or unpredictable as you say then all the same vested interests would like to have one. The public would like to see the results.
What we all really want is safe drinking water.
But I am beginning to think I have no idea what I am putting in my mouth and may never have. Trying to be informed about it isn't simple. I guess I will know the water is unsafe when people around me start dropping off in dozens.
My wife and I lived and raised a family in our old house for fifteen years. We cooked, drank, washed clothes, and bathed in well water, with no filters and no water sofener. All I Had to do was see a used filter from our new houses system, it curred me, I realised then how important that filter was. If it is clogged, the submersible pump is overworked, trying to achieve a cutoff pressure it may never reach, because the switch is on the other side of that filter. I think monitoring incoming pressure is important, you have to what your starting with. And the whole house filter will compromise the whole system.
Nothing wrong with rural well water. Pumping water out from deep under ground can be some of the best filtering there is, and it is free.
But, you do have to have geologist to back up your use. Taiwan has some areas with natural occuring arsenic, and so have some areas outside Eugene, Oregon.
But once you establish you are in a reasonably safe geologic zone with a good watershed, you have very little to do to keep verifying your water is safe, though many Oregonians are concerned with helicopter spraying of the forrest on their watersheds both for drink water safety and preserving wildlife.
The problem in Taiwan is that we have 25,000,000 that are mostly dependent upon water that is runoff from typhoon rains. 90% of the typhoon run off quick goes back into the sea, but the 10% is caught in reservoirs to be used until the next typhoon comes along. There are lots of ways this water gets contaminated -- farming, fish farming, illegal landfill projects that are capped with good soil and then leased as farm land, and on and on. Wells that do exist tend to be very shallow and water sheds are not protected.
I'd simply be much more concerned with water sources near dense population and industry.
I think I am going to try to research and confirm that the filtered water machine in my hallway is adequate for the 20 people that share its use. It seems to not be adequate to the job. And in doing so, maybe I will gain more adequat insight as to what is good feasible management of a filtered water device.
For many years in the 1990s, in front of the Kaohsiung Railway Station was a big electronic display that showed the air polution in real time. On most days, the readings were lethal - CO2, C0, NO were included. Somedays, it was hard to read through the smog. But things go much better when the government forced all the 2-cycle motor scooters off the road and imposed regular smog checks on all cars and motor scooter. About the same time, the old railway station was closed down, the pollution display removed, and the roadway relocated due to the tunnel under the train station flooding in typhoons.
Taiwan is making progress, maybe more so that other parts of Asia. Hong Kong seems to have gotten worse since the 1990s as more bad air spills in from Guang Zhou.
@Heater
I don't think I need a personal air pollution meter. When the pollution gets really bad I get chest pains that won't go away without taking nitroglycern tablets. I get the nitroglycern tablets for free on National Health insurance.
Things could be worse about air quality. I could be living in Beijing, Hong Kong, Singapore, or Jakarta. But the topic here is about monitoring water filters, not air polution.
Is near-beer good enough, or are you just trying to promote alcoholic beverages? What about gingerale? Is that a beer? Or root beer?
Related to pressure, I'm curios how ultrasonic "listening" would play out in something like this... As a fluid or gas flows over or through something (a filter in this case) it creates turbulence. Often turbid air or fluid will emit ultrasonic frequencies. Depending on the flow rate which is related to pressure, the intensity of the frequency as well as a possible frequency shift might be a relatively simple way to detect if the filter needs to be changed or not..... Ask yourself ... " How does my refrigerator do it?" ... It can't be overly complex, from a manufactures point of view due to any filed servicing that might be required.
As far as ultrasonic listening goes, you would need an ultrasonic microphone that had a broad listening range instead of a typical fixed frequency transducer ... last time I checked these went for about $5 from Digikey
Does anyone have a product number on this? I get no results with ultrasonic microphone. Is this something that can be strapped on, or JBWeld? I seem to have developed a strong adversion to drilling or cutting my water pipes. If it isn't broke, I really don't want to have to fix it right now. Thanks, Mike
A small R.O. unit with a high pressure pump is your best bet. Get all the measurement equipment you can to measure water quality. This is definitely something that a microcontroller can't provide much help with. You need accurate measurement of any pollutants and knowledge on how to properly manage an R.O. unit. The actual element will go a long way, and there is a method "cleaning in place" that will extend the lifetime of element. The pre-filters are just there to clean out the big junk from the water source and sometimes remove free chlorines.
Or just wiki it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_osmosis
This question is pretty much outside the scope of a microcontroller thread.
If you have any specific questions, you can message me. I work with this sort of thing every day.
My pump pressure is between forty and seventy two, taken by mechanical gauge. I bought a high pressure pump for my original installation, and never found a reason to install it, I'm sure it would increase volume. I sold it at the flea market a couple of years ago.
I would definately suggest an RO unit for your kitchen/drinking water, and in your case, add on a DI or dual-DI unit.
Went to the Phillipines last year, and even in Manilla many people only drank bottled water. The relatively clean water we have in the West/US is so easily taken for granted.
If one just wants to reduce hard water staining, etc, for shower or laundry, a softener should do the trick.
If one wants to actually clean their water, a simple RO unit, maybe with an add-on DI cartridge should give you about the cleanest drinking water you can get. Actually, RO/DI water is so clean, there is some talk about it pulling minerals from your body.
Been a while since I was into this stuff, however you should be able to put an under-counter RO system in for $200 for drinking water with 10g resevoir. Once a quarter you flip a switch for reverse flushing the membrane, and run the water for a while. Decent RO membranes should last 3-5 years.
This place sprang up to meet a lot of reefers needs, and is pretty good price wise http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/brs-4-stage-value-plus-ro-di-system-75gpd-1.html
In the US at least you can get a quarterly water quality report from the local utility. I would expect the same is possible in Taiwan.
edit- or not I guess.
For the kitchen, you could go with a simple set-up like:
Stage 1- 1 micron filter ( replace more often, but no need for an additional 5 mic filter), replace quarterly, monthly ?
Stage 2- Carbon block filter ( chlorine or chloramine, check with your water utility) good for 3,500 (chloromine)-35,000g (chlorine)
Stage 3- RO filter (use only Dow, world's best) 3-5 year life
Stage 4- DI resin filter *Not required for drinking water usually. DI is very short lived (x 100 gallons), can be regenerated if you don't mind messing with muriatic acid. http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-09/nftt/index.php
The link I gave shows the included TDS meter which will show TDS on the input side and the output sides. Pretty easily to check how your pre-filtering is doing, and your membrane production water is doing with a simple flip of the switch.
Probably could automate this more with a Prop detecting when water is flowing, hitting start, reading the input, flipping the switch or momentary and reading the output, and then alert if outside of whatever parameters you want.
So, $200 plus a resevoir to get some pretty clean drinking water. Depending upon how bad your water is (TDS, contaminates), filter and DI resin replacements on top of that.
The unit show above is probably going to produce cleaner water than you'd get from most of the local 'purified' water places since they undoubtedly run filters/media a bit longer to reduce expenses.
But as others have said, if you are really serious, take some of your normal faucet water and get it tested to see what it looks like in the first place.
A lot of good stuff. But I am not sure this is really a microcontroller project. That may have now been dismissed by all the real facts involved.
Getting your tap water tested directly from your own facet is certainly a good starting point. But I have no idea where in Taiwan to get a reputable test done, or if if is cheaper to import a good water testing kit. Of course, this all gets a wee bit expensive.
For the most part, I see clean water is a state government issue in the USA. So we have testing services like this... http://www.cleanwatertesting.com/
It seems they could handle an international request if the water arrives within 30 hours of having taken the sample. The logistics for doing so are a bit tight from Taiwan to Wisconsin.
Is there really an service that will provide a reputable test of water samples sent in from another country or is that too political for today's world?
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I suppose my own DIY investigations should start with a DIY testing via a TDS meter.
But I would really feel much better if I had a profession lab report as a starting benchmark on what needs to be considered for improvement. In my situationation, industrial and chemical polution are obvious hazards and only a lab may provide a good evaluation.
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In reviewing input from page one and two, I came across a suggestion for a Whirlpool watersoftener unit that looks appropriate for a household of 1-5 persons. And it seems to even monitor the quality for a filter failure. Whirlpool is what I would consider a 'trusted-brand-name'. But even they don't mention a few key factors. http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay?partNumber=416876-43353-WHES44&langId=-1&storeId=10151&productId=3824565&catalogId=10051&cmRelshp=req&rel=nofollow&cId=PDIO1
A. Does the filter require electrical power to monitor the filter for good or bad?
B. Nothing is mentioned about the price of a replacement filter - unit cost or expected useful life. Apparenty it use salt to revive the filter, which is cheap. But I am not quite certain as to how. This is typical internet marketing. One really has to ask someone to find out what is really going on.
What does everyone think of this water testing kit? For a mere $169.00 USD, they will tell you all and everything... but maybe not for international customers.
It also looks like they use Chlorine as the disinfectant, however you will want to add your own filtering if you suspect THM's may be present. THM's listed in their FAQ and they report very low concentrations, however they would wouldn't they...
I would try to get in contact with someone in the Water Quality Testing department, and see if you could participate in whatever they do locally for testing.
Thanks for locating the Taipei Water Department report. I'll see if there is one available for Kaohsiung Water Department as well. If it is in Chinese, I will attempt to use Google Translate to create a translation. I am not sure that anyone here believes these published statistics are true. But I must say that I have watched the City of Kaohsiung slowly install major sewage infrastructure of the past 20 years to make sure waste water isn't returning to the sea. It has been a huge project. Also, I have seen them close off half of Cheng Ching Lake at a time to excavate and clean the primary resevoir to assure cleaner water in the future. Efforts have been on-going as long as I have been here.
I have been following in the local national news that turbidity after typhoons has been a huge issue in Taipei as they have had to by-pass the settling tanks to continue to provide enough drinking water to the general population. It seems the settling ponds were river side and floodwaters invaded them. But the government asserts that the unclear water was still safe to drink. These filters would do well to remove transient turbity, maybe good for a home or even a restaurant.
Being at the other end of the island, we have a whole different dialogue of doubt about the water quality and sources of pollution. Down here, there is a lot of fear about chemical polution from illegal dumping in places that migrate into the public drinking water. Kaohsiung has petro-chemical plant to the north making plastics such as polyvinylchoride and polyethleme, it has cracking towers fro crude oil in the south-west and maybe more plastic industry, and in the south we have China Steel with huge steel furnaces. In other words, the city is surrounded by heavy industry.
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Looking at the lab prices for independent testing indicate that verifying what the government reports could quickly get expensive. Not something a single household could afford to do on a regular basis.
My overall impression is this is way beyond establishing a microcontroller monitoring. Safe drinking water really needs to rely on public trust.
Yes, and maybe the public should. But not being a citizen of Taiwan means that my organizing such an effort would be a 'loss of face'. I might suddenly not be allowed to stay.
I do feel that everyone deserves clean water, clean air, and clean food sources. But it is remarkable how much we all go with the flow and hope for the best, or just buy a solution that isn't a complete solution to managing the problem.
I get annoyed watching my sister buying bottled water for her dogs while I get served tap water.... even though the tap water is perfectly safe. People religiously boil water here, but they often do not boil it long enough. Or they serve it in a glass washed in tap water. So the tradition is to just drink hot tea.
Well, I have been trying to avoid the political sensitivities of clean water, but they have continued to bother me through all my thinking about DIY solutions.
It becomes obvious that at some point, people need to turn to a proper laboratory to gain a benchmark of how to start and to have periodic testing to remain on target.
It also seems that questioning your own local government is awkward at best in many parts of the world.
So why not consider organizing international across boarder water testing along the lines of Amnesty International? They arranged things so that people in a country that is being challenge are not participating in the critism.
No lab within the country is responsible for challenging the local water quality. All testing would be done outside the country on a recipricol basis that other countries use a lab in your country and all results are published on a website available to all. Maybe the water samples would be taken by travellers visiting a country for short periods as part of other business.
Water tests could be done with two samples going to different labs in different nations so that the test confirm each other or identifiy problems to be investigated. People that take and send the samples would be kept unknown wherever possible, but sampling would be done by pairs of individuals to assure sample quality proceedures are upheld. (I am thinking that maybe some people in the travel industry might be very happy to do the sampling and are in and out of other countries all the time.)
Anyway, that is a brief sketch of how one might get started with creating a global NGO that would accumulate data on drinking water quality without specific individuals being subject to pressures from their own government to distort the info.
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After all that is known, the need for water filters would be based more on a realistic database than upon vague fears and advertising pressures.
I know it seems like a huge undertaking, but there is one Buddhist NGO in Taiwan that just might be perfect for starting this in South-east Asia. I'll have to think a bit more before I would have a courage to approach them. Any suggestions would be welcome.
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In reviewing input from page one and two, I came across a suggestion for a Whirlpool watersoftener unit that looks appropriate for a household of 1-5 persons. And it seems to even monitor the quality for a filter failure. Whirlpool is what I would consider a 'trusted-brand-name'. But even they don't mention a few key factors. http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay?partNumber=416876-43353-WHES44&langId=-1&storeId=10151&productId=3824565&catalogId=10051&cmRelshp=req&rel=nofollow&cId=PDIO1
A. Does the filter require electrical power to monitor the filter for good or bad?
B. Nothing is mentioned about the price of a replacement filter - unit cost or expected useful life. Apparenty it use salt to revive the filter, which is cheap. But I am not quite certain as to how. This is typical internet marketing. One really has to ask someone to find out what is really going on.
A. While koehler stated the US120v, looking the the 360 degree view, it looks like a wall wart power supply strapped to the back. I know my Waterboss softener is that way.
B. 10 year warranty on the tanks, but to be clear, softeners aren't really filters, They're ion-exchangers. The filter is a tank filled with resin beads. When you first start the softener, it washes the resin with water from the brine tank (that's where the salt comes in), coating the resin with sodium ions. As hard water passes through the resin, calcium/magnesium/iron/etc. ions get swapped with the sodium ions. The swap maintains the electrical balance of the resin. As the resin get's filled with "hard" ions (for lack of a better phrase), the resin get's flushed with the brine tank solution, ant it starts over again. The resin doesn't ever really wear out, but enough sediment will get in to reduce its efficiency. I have heard of guys going to the trouble of taking the resin out and cleaning it and the tank, but in my case, I bought a new one (teenagers and overly long showers).
Agree with others in that a test of the water to find what you have to is a good start point.
Not sure its worth the potential to be kicked out of the country over this.
Actually, yes on the whole its a good idea, on the personal level not sure its worth the potential risk and attention you might draw. Suddenly your taxes get much greater scrutiny, etc, etc.
The $200 RO/DI will give you cleaner water than probably 99% of the people in TW.
Since pollutants are a real concern, you could step up to a 5-stage system or simply add another GAC Granulated Activated Carbon filter in there for another $20, which would adsorb anything that got by the carbon block. https://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/wq/wq-13.html
I see the following courses available:
Get $$ Water tested
Water is ok, and maybe you get some simple filters for chlorine taste or particulate removal
Water is not ok:
Pollutants can be removed with standard RO/DI/carbon, DIY time
Pollutants can not be removed per above, so you:
A. Drink water bought from one of the local water purifiers, that is probably less clean than you can make yourself
B. Drink bottled water, of which you don't know the source/providence
Don't get water tested, but get DYI-ish and accept that you have about as clean a water source as you are going to be able to get, unless bottled water is exceptionally cheap and from a trustworthy source.
Jordan, all I know about water softeners is that they use some sort of salt. Interesting, however since I don't live in Vegas (TDS 700!), or use well water, haven't had to bother. Just that they seem relatively cheap to run compared to other solutions if you don't mind the additional sodium.
Obviously, there is a segment of the water filter market that is driven by fear, distrust of government, and the desire for safety for oneself, one's pets, and family. Infants and elderly may be an additional special concern.
But it is a bit of an information quagmire to get down what one really wants and why they want it. It may be that getting a good cup of tea or having clothes stay brighter are important to some, but I find that most users simply imagine they are getting more safety and better health from filtered water. It is somewhat like the vitamin industry.
No, I don't think it is worth beging kicked out of a country over this. But the countries where real utility is a concern seem to have the kind of politics that may make that happen. Thus the whole dream of a 'clean water NGO' to offer some clarity.
The more I learn here, the less concerned I am with Taiwan water now (though in 1994 there were some real reasons to worry, like local canals that stunk and were a floating film of black). I let the clothes become gray and presume the extra calcium is doing no real harm to me. I generally don't buy bottled water as it generates a burden of plastic bottles on the environment. And I gave up carting 20 liters from a water station as even just going to the corner for it has gotten to be too much lifting for me. It the goverment says they goofed and I should drink bottled water, I do so.
I was fine drinking boiled tap water, but about 2 months ago the landlady installed a filtered water station right out my door that offers room temperature water, boiling hot water, and refrigerated ice water. I guess that triggers a few mental doubts that I understood the local risks. I opened the unit and found three filters by I have no idea what they filter.
Sadly, a lot of modern consumerism is driven by fears and doubts. I try not to buy into it. Air polution is nearly impossible to resolve without moving. Clean food is likely to be resolved by eating fresh food and simple food. Anything that is in vogue and expensive in Asia is likely to be tained by fakery.
I'm confused then. Sounds like your drinking water concerns are unnecessary, unless that water station is some sort of 'convenience' type of thing.
Dingy clothes can be remedied by that oxy-clean stuff you can get at the $ stores for $1/lb or so. If that doesn't work, then you probably have more iron in your water, so http://www.howtocleanstuff.net/how-to-wash-whites-in-high-iron-water/
If you've been in TW for a long time, it would seems like the dingy/scaling is more of a nuisance.
The drinking water quality is the only thing that is potentially going to affect your health.
In all honesty, I am just giving up on the water and water filter monitoring. It wouldn't add any real clarity to what I drink in Taiwan unless I pay a great deal of money on a regular basis. I started out with high hopes for a potential microcontroller application, but it takes serious lab equipment to do this right.
As far as the clothes...
I could use a water softener if I washed my own clothes, but for the past 20 years I have sent everything but the socks and underwear out. My whites don't seem to get as dingy as other people's so the laudry may do something. And I gave up on white socks and white underwear a long time ago.
I guess I am officially saying that tracking water quality is not really feasible via a microcontroller, except in the most general of ways. And I suppose that the same goes for monitoring of water filters.
Comments
We are just coming out of a summer of Dengue Fever that is worse than ever. Last year I was hospitalized with Dengue Fever for 6 days quarentine, and for another 5-6 days with Chicken Pox.
We have all sorts of products imported to Taiwan and made in Taiwan. But people generalize of what is good and what is bad. After all, if you are selling a second-rate product at cut-rate prices, are you going to admit it is really inferior.
We have had food scandals -- fake extra-virgin olive oil, gutter oil (actually salvaged from cleaning gutters) sold to bakeries as fresh lard oil, McDonald's using frying oil that is discontinued in the USA, and much more.
In my neighborhood, every block has someone offering a coin-operated water fill-up station for safe drinking water. Some have water trucked in from 'high mountain springs'; other claim to be a big reputible brand, such and RO; and other have banks of filters, including UV sterialization.
I suppose that we would call this 'free market enterprise'. So far the only drawback that I may have developed from drinking local water is a kidney stone problem. I also had my gall bladder removed for gall stones.
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The situation in the USA may be a bit saner because anyone can file a civil suit without having to prove merit. Municipal governments do generally work hard to provide safe water. And class action suits can be placed by big law firms. But here the world is very much enamored by technology without quite understanding that some of the high technology available is just marketing hype. Government may be more about getting a civil service job than doing a good job.
The water filter industry reminds me very much of the vacumn cleaner industry. There are some good brands, like Hoover. And then there are some brands that are almost a religion, like Dyson or Kirby.
On my last visit to Thailand, I returned home with a scratch on my leg and it immediately went septic with the foot turning purple and I spent 6 days in the hospital on an IV of antibotics while the Taiwan Center for Disease Control was trying to determine if I had picked up an exotic parasite that resides in the river bank mud of Northern Thailand.
Life is an adventure here. I am enjoying it inspite of the risk.
I am just trying to figure out what's safe, what's hype, and how microcontrollers might enter into making safe water easier to have.
I am sorry if I sounded dismissive of TDS as a methodology. It seems useful, but should be bolstered wtih other tests. I wonder if one should actually use a microscope to see what is in the water. There are USB microscopes that might be helpful.
I'd say a lot of South-east Asis is seriously fearful about air, water, and food quality. But the decisions on how to protect oneself seem less than rational.
How but some simple approaches:
1) Take the Forrest Mims idea for measuring atmospheric constituents with different colour LEDs. Such a measurement down a long length of pipe will soon tell you if some unusual Smile is in the water today.
2) Get a microscope and see what is swimming around in there
3) Measure the Ph and electrical conductivity.
There is a reason the Brits drink so much beer. Back in the day it was about the only safe thing to drink. Old habbits die hard
@Heater
"Few people have the imagination for reality" - Johan Wolfgang von Goethe
The newpapers here report the air polution daily. It would be nice if they did the same for drinking water, but I suspect the government would dislike it.
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I really am interested in finding out if there is an emprical engineered solution that any household could easily manage.
I think you have the seeds of a good idea there.
I'm dealing with a small company in England that makes an air pollution monitor. It's a little brick of a unit that you bolt to the side of a building, give it power and it starts sending atmospheric pollution data back to a cloud service from which it is available to the public.
It's not cheap because the sensors are accurate and calibrated. It's not intended for everyone. BUT companies buy them to bolt onto their offices, schools buy them, apartment buildings buy them. Anyone who has a vested interest in a clean environment buys them.
One by itself is meaningless but when there are many over a city or other area it accumulates a picture of the atmosphere that then has political clout if you want to block a road construction or new factory.
So, forget the water filter thing. Make a water quality meter. Have it publish it's data publicly. If the water supply in your area and indeed large parts of the world is a bad and/or unpredictable as you say then all the same vested interests would like to have one. The public would like to see the results.
My wife and I lived and raised a family in our old house for fifteen years. We cooked, drank, washed clothes, and bathed in well water, with no filters and no water sofener. All I Had to do was see a used filter from our new houses system, it curred me, I realised then how important that filter was. If it is clogged, the submersible pump is overworked, trying to achieve a cutoff pressure it may never reach, because the switch is on the other side of that filter. I think monitoring incoming pressure is important, you have to what your starting with. And the whole house filter will compromise the whole system.
But, you do have to have geologist to back up your use. Taiwan has some areas with natural occuring arsenic, and so have some areas outside Eugene, Oregon.
But once you establish you are in a reasonably safe geologic zone with a good watershed, you have very little to do to keep verifying your water is safe, though many Oregonians are concerned with helicopter spraying of the forrest on their watersheds both for drink water safety and preserving wildlife.
The problem in Taiwan is that we have 25,000,000 that are mostly dependent upon water that is runoff from typhoon rains. 90% of the typhoon run off quick goes back into the sea, but the 10% is caught in reservoirs to be used until the next typhoon comes along. There are lots of ways this water gets contaminated -- farming, fish farming, illegal landfill projects that are capped with good soil and then leased as farm land, and on and on. Wells that do exist tend to be very shallow and water sheds are not protected.
I'd simply be much more concerned with water sources near dense population and industry.
I think I am going to try to research and confirm that the filtered water machine in my hallway is adequate for the 20 people that share its use. It seems to not be adequate to the job. And in doing so, maybe I will gain more adequat insight as to what is good feasible management of a filtered water device.
For many years in the 1990s, in front of the Kaohsiung Railway Station was a big electronic display that showed the air polution in real time. On most days, the readings were lethal - CO2, C0, NO were included. Somedays, it was hard to read through the smog. But things go much better when the government forced all the 2-cycle motor scooters off the road and imposed regular smog checks on all cars and motor scooter. About the same time, the old railway station was closed down, the pollution display removed, and the roadway relocated due to the tunnel under the train station flooding in typhoons.
Taiwan is making progress, maybe more so that other parts of Asia. Hong Kong seems to have gotten worse since the 1990s as more bad air spills in from Guang Zhou.
@Heater
I don't think I need a personal air pollution meter. When the pollution gets really bad I get chest pains that won't go away without taking nitroglycern tablets. I get the nitroglycern tablets for free on National Health insurance.
Things could be worse about air quality. I could be living in Beijing, Hong Kong, Singapore, or Jakarta. But the topic here is about monitoring water filters, not air polution.
Is near-beer good enough, or are you just trying to promote alcoholic beverages? What about gingerale? Is that a beer? Or root beer?
Does anyone have a product number on this? I get no results with ultrasonic microphone. Is this something that can be strapped on, or JBWeld? I seem to have developed a strong adversion to drilling or cutting my water pipes. If it isn't broke, I really don't want to have to fix it right now. Thanks, Mike
Or just wiki it
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_osmosis
This question is pretty much outside the scope of a microcontroller thread.
If you have any specific questions, you can message me. I work with this sort of thing every day.
OK, saw there was a page 2.
I would definately suggest an RO unit for your kitchen/drinking water, and in your case, add on a DI or dual-DI unit.
Went to the Phillipines last year, and even in Manilla many people only drank bottled water. The relatively clean water we have in the West/US is so easily taken for granted.
If one just wants to reduce hard water staining, etc, for shower or laundry, a softener should do the trick.
If one wants to actually clean their water, a simple RO unit, maybe with an add-on DI cartridge should give you about the cleanest drinking water you can get. Actually, RO/DI water is so clean, there is some talk about it pulling minerals from your body.
Been a while since I was into this stuff, however you should be able to put an under-counter RO system in for $200 for drinking water with 10g resevoir. Once a quarter you flip a switch for reverse flushing the membrane, and run the water for a while. Decent RO membranes should last 3-5 years.
This place sprang up to meet a lot of reefers needs, and is pretty good price wise http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/brs-4-stage-value-plus-ro-di-system-75gpd-1.html
In the US at least you can get a quarterly water quality report from the local utility. I would expect the same is possible in Taiwan.
edit- or not I guess.
For the kitchen, you could go with a simple set-up like:
Stage 1- 1 micron filter ( replace more often, but no need for an additional 5 mic filter), replace quarterly, monthly ?
Stage 2- Carbon block filter ( chlorine or chloramine, check with your water utility) good for 3,500 (chloromine)-35,000g (chlorine)
Stage 3- RO filter (use only Dow, world's best) 3-5 year life
Stage 4- DI resin filter *Not required for drinking water usually. DI is very short lived (x 100 gallons), can be regenerated if you don't mind messing with muriatic acid. http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-09/nftt/index.php
The link I gave shows the included TDS meter which will show TDS on the input side and the output sides. Pretty easily to check how your pre-filtering is doing, and your membrane production water is doing with a simple flip of the switch.
Probably could automate this more with a Prop detecting when water is flowing, hitting start, reading the input, flipping the switch or momentary and reading the output, and then alert if outside of whatever parameters you want.
So, $200 plus a resevoir to get some pretty clean drinking water. Depending upon how bad your water is (TDS, contaminates), filter and DI resin replacements on top of that.
The unit show above is probably going to produce cleaner water than you'd get from most of the local 'purified' water places since they undoubtedly run filters/media a bit longer to reduce expenses.
But as others have said, if you are really serious, take some of your normal faucet water and get it tested to see what it looks like in the first place.
PS, you're not M13 from Youtube right?
Getting your tap water tested directly from your own facet is certainly a good starting point. But I have no idea where in Taiwan to get a reputable test done, or if if is cheaper to import a good water testing kit. Of course, this all gets a wee bit expensive.
For the most part, I see clean water is a state government issue in the USA. So we have testing services like this... http://www.cleanwatertesting.com/
It seems they could handle an international request if the water arrives within 30 hours of having taken the sample. The logistics for doing so are a bit tight from Taiwan to Wisconsin.
Is there really an service that will provide a reputable test of water samples sent in from another country or is that too political for today's world?
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I suppose my own DIY investigations should start with a DIY testing via a TDS meter.
But I would really feel much better if I had a profession lab report as a starting benchmark on what needs to be considered for improvement. In my situationation, industrial and chemical polution are obvious hazards and only a lab may provide a good evaluation.
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In reviewing input from page one and two, I came across a suggestion for a Whirlpool watersoftener unit that looks appropriate for a household of 1-5 persons. And it seems to even monitor the quality for a filter failure. Whirlpool is what I would consider a 'trusted-brand-name'. But even they don't mention a few key factors.
http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay?partNumber=416876-43353-WHES44&langId=-1&storeId=10151&productId=3824565&catalogId=10051&cmRelshp=req&rel=nofollow&cId=PDIO1
A. Does the filter require electrical power to monitor the filter for good or bad?
B. Nothing is mentioned about the price of a replacement filter - unit cost or expected useful life. Apparenty it use salt to revive the filter, which is cheap. But I am not quite certain as to how. This is typical internet marketing. One really has to ask someone to find out what is really going on.
What does everyone think of this water testing kit? For a mere $169.00 USD, they will tell you all and everything... but maybe not for international customers.
A. Manual at Whirlpool indicates it has a plug for power, so US120v is needed. Looks like it has a battery for memory backup.
B. https://www.whirlpoolwatersolutions.com/products/44000-grain-softener/ 10 year warranty on the tanks, so it is not something expected to be replaced every few years.
http://english.water.gov.taipei/ct.asp?xItem=994067&CtNode=23901&mp=114012
http://english.water.gov.taipei/ct.asp?xItem=994056&CtNode=23900&mp=114012
It also looks like they use Chlorine as the disinfectant, however you will want to add your own filtering if you suspect THM's may be present. THM's listed in their FAQ and they report very low concentrations, however they would wouldn't they...
I would try to get in contact with someone in the Water Quality Testing department, and see if you could participate in whatever they do locally for testing.
I have been following in the local national news that turbidity after typhoons has been a huge issue in Taipei as they have had to by-pass the settling tanks to continue to provide enough drinking water to the general population. It seems the settling ponds were river side and floodwaters invaded them. But the government asserts that the unclear water was still safe to drink. These filters would do well to remove transient turbity, maybe good for a home or even a restaurant.
Being at the other end of the island, we have a whole different dialogue of doubt about the water quality and sources of pollution. Down here, there is a lot of fear about chemical polution from illegal dumping in places that migrate into the public drinking water. Kaohsiung has petro-chemical plant to the north making plastics such as polyvinylchoride and polyethleme, it has cracking towers fro crude oil in the south-west and maybe more plastic industry, and in the south we have China Steel with huge steel furnaces. In other words, the city is surrounded by heavy industry.
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Looking at the lab prices for independent testing indicate that verifying what the government reports could quickly get expensive. Not something a single household could afford to do on a regular basis.
My overall impression is this is way beyond establishing a microcontroller monitoring. Safe drinking water really needs to rely on public trust.
I do feel that everyone deserves clean water, clean air, and clean food sources. But it is remarkable how much we all go with the flow and hope for the best, or just buy a solution that isn't a complete solution to managing the problem.
I get annoyed watching my sister buying bottled water for her dogs while I get served tap water.... even though the tap water is perfectly safe. People religiously boil water here, but they often do not boil it long enough. Or they serve it in a glass washed in tap water. So the tradition is to just drink hot tea.
It becomes obvious that at some point, people need to turn to a proper laboratory to gain a benchmark of how to start and to have periodic testing to remain on target.
It also seems that questioning your own local government is awkward at best in many parts of the world.
So why not consider organizing international across boarder water testing along the lines of Amnesty International? They arranged things so that people in a country that is being challenge are not participating in the critism.
No lab within the country is responsible for challenging the local water quality. All testing would be done outside the country on a recipricol basis that other countries use a lab in your country and all results are published on a website available to all. Maybe the water samples would be taken by travellers visiting a country for short periods as part of other business.
Water tests could be done with two samples going to different labs in different nations so that the test confirm each other or identifiy problems to be investigated. People that take and send the samples would be kept unknown wherever possible, but sampling would be done by pairs of individuals to assure sample quality proceedures are upheld. (I am thinking that maybe some people in the travel industry might be very happy to do the sampling and are in and out of other countries all the time.)
Anyway, that is a brief sketch of how one might get started with creating a global NGO that would accumulate data on drinking water quality without specific individuals being subject to pressures from their own government to distort the info.
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After all that is known, the need for water filters would be based more on a realistic database than upon vague fears and advertising pressures.
I know it seems like a huge undertaking, but there is one Buddhist NGO in Taiwan that just might be perfect for starting this in South-east Asia. I'll have to think a bit more before I would have a courage to approach them. Any suggestions would be welcome.
Am I thinking too big?
A. While koehler stated the US120v, looking the the 360 degree view, it looks like a wall wart power supply strapped to the back. I know my Waterboss softener is that way.
B. 10 year warranty on the tanks, but to be clear, softeners aren't really filters, They're ion-exchangers. The filter is a tank filled with resin beads. When you first start the softener, it washes the resin with water from the brine tank (that's where the salt comes in), coating the resin with sodium ions. As hard water passes through the resin, calcium/magnesium/iron/etc. ions get swapped with the sodium ions. The swap maintains the electrical balance of the resin. As the resin get's filled with "hard" ions (for lack of a better phrase), the resin get's flushed with the brine tank solution, ant it starts over again. The resin doesn't ever really wear out, but enough sediment will get in to reduce its efficiency. I have heard of guys going to the trouble of taking the resin out and cleaning it and the tank, but in my case, I bought a new one (teenagers and overly long showers).
Agree with others in that a test of the water to find what you have to is a good start point.
Loopy,
Not sure its worth the potential to be kicked out of the country over this.
Actually, yes on the whole its a good idea, on the personal level not sure its worth the potential risk and attention you might draw. Suddenly your taxes get much greater scrutiny, etc, etc.
The $200 RO/DI will give you cleaner water than probably 99% of the people in TW.
Since pollutants are a real concern, you could step up to a 5-stage system or simply add another GAC Granulated Activated Carbon filter in there for another $20, which would adsorb anything that got by the carbon block.
https://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/wq/wq-13.html
I see the following courses available:
Get $$ Water tested
Water is ok, and maybe you get some simple filters for chlorine taste or particulate removal
Water is not ok:
Pollutants can be removed with standard RO/DI/carbon, DIY time
Pollutants can not be removed per above, so you:
A. Drink water bought from one of the local water purifiers, that is probably less clean than you can make yourself
B. Drink bottled water, of which you don't know the source/providence
Don't get water tested, but get DYI-ish and accept that you have about as clean a water source as you are going to be able to get, unless bottled water is exceptionally cheap and from a trustworthy source.
Jordan, all I know about water softeners is that they use some sort of salt. Interesting, however since I don't live in Vegas (TDS 700!), or use well water, haven't had to bother. Just that they seem relatively cheap to run compared to other solutions if you don't mind the additional sodium.
But it is a bit of an information quagmire to get down what one really wants and why they want it. It may be that getting a good cup of tea or having clothes stay brighter are important to some, but I find that most users simply imagine they are getting more safety and better health from filtered water. It is somewhat like the vitamin industry.
No, I don't think it is worth beging kicked out of a country over this. But the countries where real utility is a concern seem to have the kind of politics that may make that happen. Thus the whole dream of a 'clean water NGO' to offer some clarity.
The more I learn here, the less concerned I am with Taiwan water now (though in 1994 there were some real reasons to worry, like local canals that stunk and were a floating film of black). I let the clothes become gray and presume the extra calcium is doing no real harm to me. I generally don't buy bottled water as it generates a burden of plastic bottles on the environment. And I gave up carting 20 liters from a water station as even just going to the corner for it has gotten to be too much lifting for me. It the goverment says they goofed and I should drink bottled water, I do so.
I was fine drinking boiled tap water, but about 2 months ago the landlady installed a filtered water station right out my door that offers room temperature water, boiling hot water, and refrigerated ice water. I guess that triggers a few mental doubts that I understood the local risks. I opened the unit and found three filters by I have no idea what they filter.
Sadly, a lot of modern consumerism is driven by fears and doubts. I try not to buy into it. Air polution is nearly impossible to resolve without moving. Clean food is likely to be resolved by eating fresh food and simple food. Anything that is in vogue and expensive in Asia is likely to be tained by fakery.
I'm confused then. Sounds like your drinking water concerns are unnecessary, unless that water station is some sort of 'convenience' type of thing.
Dingy clothes can be remedied by that oxy-clean stuff you can get at the $ stores for $1/lb or so. If that doesn't work, then you probably have more iron in your water, so http://www.howtocleanstuff.net/how-to-wash-whites-in-high-iron-water/
If you've been in TW for a long time, it would seems like the dingy/scaling is more of a nuisance.
The drinking water quality is the only thing that is potentially going to affect your health.
As far as the clothes...
I could use a water softener if I washed my own clothes, but for the past 20 years I have sent everything but the socks and underwear out. My whites don't seem to get as dingy as other people's so the laudry may do something. And I gave up on white socks and white underwear a long time ago.
I guess I am officially saying that tracking water quality is not really feasible via a microcontroller, except in the most general of ways. And I suppose that the same goes for monitoring of water filters.