I now have a laser range finder (Noptel CMP 52) connected to a Raspberry Pi which is relaying it's range and reflection amplitude to 2π.net. The raw data can be seen in the "terminal" tab on the page there. Next is to get that into some graph or other visualization.
This should be the slogan of every high school and college
Well, yes....but...
Google has the answer to almost anything you might think to ask about.
It can find you right answers, it can find you wrong answers.
Is the universe 6000 years old? Can we get free energy out of the vacuum? What does 'order of magnitude' mean'?
Every high school and college should be teach how to do the research, cross check the "facts", verify the sources, do the experiment, whatever it takes to get to the most likely reality of the situation.
I went to bed last night deeply preturbed by the asserting that my dictionary was not a 'normal dictionary'. It is a clever ruse. People create the mean of words by accepting conventional uses for them. Later dictionary writers attempt to catalog what is going on.
It is really unfair to use a search engine to locate a definition that suits your argument, and then claim that your adversary has a 'less than normal' or an 'abnormal dictionary'.
My situation in Taiwan has me being expected to perform as a human dictionary for many people. I do admit I may be hyper-sensitive to definitions as I am always getting cornered by someone that can't quite reconcile what their resources assert.
'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'
A word does not have a meaning. A people assign meanings to words in their minds. Every person maintains different subsets of words and meanings and assigns meanings to words differently. By virtue of being used for communication people tend to evolve a common set of words and meaning assignments, otherwise we would never know what we are talking about.
Dictionaries try to capture all this. A dictionary is a kind of "meta person" in terms of assigning meanings to words. Except of course dictionaries do not contain any meanings, they can only assign words to descriptions of meanings that written in more words, this leads to a basically meaningless mess of cyclical references.
I have been immersed in a world where "order of magnitude" has the meaning I and others have presented here. You have not. For you it is a new thing. That's OK, I'm sure there are many words and phases that you know that I don't.
The only question is how long we should debate this silly thing on a 2π.net/Propanel thread ?
2π.net, well the propanel server, has now gone all secure using HTTPS.
It also implements Content Security Policy, Cross Site Scripting (XSS) Protection, X-Frame-Options, HTTP Strict Transport Security, Cross-site Request Forgery (CSRF) protection, and removes the X-Powered-By HTTP header.
The upshot of all that is that when typing into the terminal window the data is all sent encrypted.
If you visit https://2π-net (https://xn--2-umb.net) your browser will complain about the certificates because I signed them myself for testing. Just tell the browser it's OK.
Now to get that user signup/login working...and hooked up to a Prop of course.
Are you thinking of creating your own login form, or use something else out there? I started messing with OAuth 2.0 so that I could allow users from Google, GitHub and other places to use PropWareIDE but never got very far. I'll sure be interested to see what you come up with.
The plan is to do my own authentication because I might want to put up a Propeller(s) behind a Raspberry Pi server on a local network, I want it to be usable on it's own. As you see I have the Login and Signup pages there but I don't have the logic behind them (Actually I just now put the user database driver for the server into the source on bitbucket).
However a while back I made a fully working authentication system, login page, logout page, signup page and dummy application as an experiment. It uses node.js and it's express HTTP server for the server and the node.js "passport" module to handle authentication. The code for that is here: https://github.com/ZiCog/secure_express_demo
You could try it out. Let me know if you need any instructions.
The thing is, that passport module can handle almost any kind of authentication you can imagine, Google, Github, Facebook and a ton of others. So I was planning to try that out as well.
Just now I'm a bit stuck because unlike my secure demo Propanel uses react.js for server side rendering of HTML and I haven't figured out how to weave the authentication into that yet
I tried from my Samsung tablet using Chrome and was severely warned that my connection was not private and hackers may be trying to steal my data. A NET: ERR_CERT_AUTHORITY_INVALID MESSAGE too!
I had no option but to go someplace safe - Chrome sent me to a blank page.
All I did was click on your provided link, above.
Are you some sort of Finnish prince looking for help to retrieve you family's Reindeer herd??
That's because I have generated my own self-signed certificates. I guess I should fork out for a proper cert at some point.
You should be able to get to the page with Chrome or Firefox (and IE last I checked) if you click your way around all the dire warnings about privacy. You are not going to give me any private info now are you? Trust me
That get's you to the login dialog if you are not logged in already. Use the password "password1". Then it should show the app.
Have not gotten this to run on any mobile device yet. My Android does not like some new JavaScript language features I have been experimenting with.
Seems Firefox does not like "2π.net" in the connect-src rule for content security policy headers. CSP rules require a host name to be specified for the websocket connection and they have to be specified in their ASCII equivalent "punny code" i.e. "xn--2-umb.net" in this case.
But then, silly Firefox ends up trying to match "xn--2-umb.net" against "2π.net" and failing.
I had to use a wild card "*.net" instead to get the terminal connection working. Which is a shame from a maximal security point of view.
Orders of magnitude are used to make approximate comparisons. If numbers differ by 1 order of magnitude, x is about ten times different in quantity than y. If values differ by 2 orders of magnitude, they differ by a factor of about 100. Two numbers of the same order of magnitude have roughly the same scale: the larger value is less than ten times the smaller value.
Yep, I gave up on trying to clarify that is just one of two possible interpretations. These days, one can't fight an internet search engine and hope to win.
"Order of magnitude is the magnitude of any amount, in which there is a fixed ratio in which the particular class is different to the preceding, or the succeeding class by a fixed value." from www.orderofmagnitude.org
I don't get it. They clearly discuss the fixed value varies with context, you claim they support that the fixed value is only 10.
I am not going to try to fetch another example. I said there were two interpretations -- not three.
The order of magnitude is simply a logarithmic relationship. Clearly one could use log to any base you like.
Don't forget logb(x) = logc(x) / logc(b) so your order of magnitude in base 2 (or whatever) is a simple constant multiplier different than my order of magnitude in base 10. No big deal.
orderofmagnitude.org says "...most common ratio which is used all around is the power of ten." and gives no examples of where a different base is used.
Hence my question for you. Where is "order of magnitude" ever used with the assumption of a different base? And what is it?
No, we did not say "only acceptable base". No idea about the other guys but I'm genuinely curious about use of other bases that I have never heard of.
Yep, read the thread, still don't know.
The orderofmagnitude web site defines an order of magnitude as:
“Order of magnitude is the magnitude of any amount, in which there is a fixed ratio in which the particular class is different to the preceding, or the succeeding class by a fixed value. This fixed value is in the form of a ratio, and the most common ratio which is used all around is the power of ten. Hence, in the most common way, we can conclude that the Order of Magnitude of a value, at a particular class, is ten times higher than its preceding class, or ten times less than its succeeding class.”
Based on that definition a power of 10 is the ratio for base ten. I see no reason why less common ratios could not be considered magnitudes for their numeric base. Two could be the order of magnitude for binary, eight for octal, and sixteen for hexadecimal. One just needs to specify the numeric base.
Using two as the order of magnitude for binary sounds a bit shifty.
(Ok, like this thread isn't headed into the weeds again already!!)
ROFLOL, Good one.
Working with computer circuitry and software seems to have that effect. Perhaps a bit of brain rewiring? Too late for me in any case so I'm not going to worry about it.
2π.net now implements it's terminal connection using websockets secured with JSON Web Tokens delivered via HttpOnly cookies (Javascript cannot read those cookies)
This is an order of magnitude more secure than what it had before
Comments
I now have a laser range finder (Noptel CMP 52) connected to a Raspberry Pi which is relaying it's range and reflection amplitude to 2π.net. The raw data can be seen in the "terminal" tab on the page there. Next is to get that into some graph or other visualization.
Now where are all my Propeller?....
This is the Noptel, a very nice unit, only 2000 Euro or so: http://www.noptel.fi/eng2/FastDistance/index.php?doc=2_products/5_cm5 )
This should be the slogan of every high school and college
Google has the answer to almost anything you might think to ask about.
It can find you right answers, it can find you wrong answers.
Is the universe 6000 years old? Can we get free energy out of the vacuum? What does 'order of magnitude' mean'?
Every high school and college should be teach how to do the research, cross check the "facts", verify the sources, do the experiment, whatever it takes to get to the most likely reality of the situation.
In short, don't believe everything you read.
Now, what about 2π.net ?
It is really unfair to use a search engine to locate a definition that suits your argument, and then claim that your adversary has a 'less than normal' or an 'abnormal dictionary'.
My situation in Taiwan has me being expected to perform as a human dictionary for many people. I do admit I may be hyper-sensitive to definitions as I am always getting cornered by someone that can't quite reconcile what their resources assert.
'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'
A word does not have a meaning. A people assign meanings to words in their minds. Every person maintains different subsets of words and meanings and assigns meanings to words differently. By virtue of being used for communication people tend to evolve a common set of words and meaning assignments, otherwise we would never know what we are talking about.
Dictionaries try to capture all this. A dictionary is a kind of "meta person" in terms of assigning meanings to words. Except of course dictionaries do not contain any meanings, they can only assign words to descriptions of meanings that written in more words, this leads to a basically meaningless mess of cyclical references.
I have been immersed in a world where "order of magnitude" has the meaning I and others have presented here. You have not. For you it is a new thing. That's OK, I'm sure there are many words and phases that you know that I don't.
The only question is how long we should debate this silly thing on a 2π.net/Propanel thread ?
It also implements Content Security Policy, Cross Site Scripting (XSS) Protection, X-Frame-Options, HTTP Strict Transport Security, Cross-site Request Forgery (CSRF) protection, and removes the X-Powered-By HTTP header.
The upshot of all that is that when typing into the terminal window the data is all sent encrypted.
If you visit https://2π-net (https://xn--2-umb.net) your browser will complain about the certificates because I signed them myself for testing. Just tell the browser it's OK.
Source code here: https://bitbucket.org/zicog/propanel/src
If anyone knows of any other web security features to look out for I'd love to here them.
Now to get that user signup/login working...and hooked up to a Prop of course.
Are you thinking of creating your own login form, or use something else out there? I started messing with OAuth 2.0 so that I could allow users from Google, GitHub and other places to use PropWareIDE but never got very far. I'll sure be interested to see what you come up with.
The plan is to do my own authentication because I might want to put up a Propeller(s) behind a Raspberry Pi server on a local network, I want it to be usable on it's own. As you see I have the Login and Signup pages there but I don't have the logic behind them (Actually I just now put the user database driver for the server into the source on bitbucket).
However a while back I made a fully working authentication system, login page, logout page, signup page and dummy application as an experiment. It uses node.js and it's express HTTP server for the server and the node.js "passport" module to handle authentication. The code for that is here: https://github.com/ZiCog/secure_express_demo
You could try it out. Let me know if you need any instructions.
The thing is, that passport module can handle almost any kind of authentication you can imagine, Google, Github, Facebook and a ton of others. So I was planning to try that out as well.
Just now I'm a bit stuck because unlike my secure demo Propanel uses react.js for server side rendering of HTML and I haven't figured out how to weave the authentication into that yet
Well, sort of. It logs you in but it's not actually authenticating with the server yet...
https://xn--2-umb.net
I had no option but to go someplace safe - Chrome sent me to a blank page.
All I did was click on your provided link, above.
Are you some sort of Finnish prince looking for help to retrieve you family's Reindeer herd??
You should be able to get to the page with Chrome or Firefox (and IE last I checked) if you click your way around all the dire warnings about privacy. You are not going to give me any private info now are you? Trust me
That get's you to the login dialog if you are not logged in already. Use the password "password1". Then it should show the app.
Have not gotten this to run on any mobile device yet. My Android does not like some new JavaScript language features I have been experimenting with.
But then, silly Firefox ends up trying to match "xn--2-umb.net" against "2π.net" and failing.
I had to use a wild card "*.net" instead to get the terminal connection working. Which is a shame from a maximal security point of view.
Chrome handles it just fine.
No more getting to the control panel or using the terminal without being logged in.
Currently the only valid log is "guest" and "password".
You can sign up as a user but there is the user database is not used for login yet so you won't be able to login as a new user.
Anyone care to try and break this ? https://xn--2-umb.ne
This is using the passport library so the next step is to see about authorization via github or such.
Now I really must get back to hooking this up to a Propeller...
P.S. Code here: https://bitbucket.org/zicog/propanel/src
Orders of magnitude are used to make approximate comparisons. If numbers differ by 1 order of magnitude, x is about ten times different in quantity than y. If values differ by 2 orders of magnitude, they differ by a factor of about 100. Two numbers of the same order of magnitude have roughly the same scale: the larger value is less than ten times the smaller value.
But we do have orgeofmagnitude.org that is the 'true keeper of the concept'.
http://orderofmagnitude.org/
I am just going to stick with 'higher octaves' where each is an 8x factor.
http://orderofmagnitude.org/ is in total agreement with what everyone has been saying here and is in line with common usage since forever.
Do you have a reference to the other of the two possible interpretations? What is it supposed to be again?
I don't get it. They clearly discuss the fixed value varies with context, you claim they support that the fixed value is only 10.
I am not going to try to fetch another example. I said there were two interpretations -- not three.
Don't forget logb(x) = logc(x) / logc(b) so your order of magnitude in base 2 (or whatever) is a simple constant multiplier different than my order of magnitude in base 10. No big deal.
orderofmagnitude.org says "...most common ratio which is used all around is the power of ten." and gives no examples of where a different base is used.
Hence my question for you. Where is "order of magnitude" ever used with the assumption of a different base? And what is it?
Yep, read the thread, still don't know.
The orderofmagnitude web site defines an order of magnitude as:
“Order of magnitude is the magnitude of any amount, in which there is a fixed ratio in which the particular class is different to the preceding, or the succeeding class by a fixed value. This fixed value is in the form of a ratio, and the most common ratio which is used all around is the power of ten. Hence, in the most common way, we can conclude that the Order of Magnitude of a value, at a particular class, is ten times higher than its preceding class, or ten times less than its succeeding class.”
Based on that definition a power of 10 is the ratio for base ten. I see no reason why less common ratios could not be considered magnitudes for their numeric base. Two could be the order of magnitude for binary, eight for octal, and sixteen for hexadecimal. One just needs to specify the numeric base.
At the end of the day what you want to say is something like:
"a is 1000000000000000000000000 times bigger than b"
Saying "24 order of magnitudes bigger" is easier than remembering to count all those zeros.
Now, in base e that is 55 orders of magnitude. At this scale who cares?
(Ok, like this thread isn't headed into the weeds again already!!)
Look for a hack 2π.net challenge soon. With prizes !
ROFLOL, Good one.
Working with computer circuitry and software seems to have that effect. Perhaps a bit of brain rewiring? Too late for me in any case so I'm not going to worry about it.
X is an order of Y magnitude larger?
X is 5 orders of Y magnitudes larger than Z?
I don't know, seems a little awkward. I think I'll stick with 10.
070 octal is 2 octal orders of magnitude smaller than 7000 octal.
Yep, definitely a little awkward.
This is an order of magnitude more secure than what it had before
Still haven't got that Prop connected to it...
https://xn--2-umb.net/