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Lowest amperage heat source? — Parallax Forums

Lowest amperage heat source?

I am going to attempt to help out a few neighborhood stray cats this winter with a little insulated cat house. I can find a 100Ah car battery, and the goal is to swap out the battery the least amount of times, once a week would be nice. I am assuming if a heating pad is 1amp, then even if it ran non stop I could get 4 days between swaps. The place where I am doing this in at the edge of some woods where I feed the cats near my office, I don't own the land and there is no electricity, and it is wooded so I don't thing solar is an option. I am looking into what would be the most efficient heat source, and there are plenty of 12vdc pet pads. I am looking for other ideas for the least amount of effort keeping this up through the winter. I have a Prop board with a digital thermostat on it so it is rather easy to rig up a controller with a mosfet turning the heating device on and off.
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Comments

  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2015-09-26 02:42
    The thing about heat is that it's the lowest common denominator, energy-wise. So there's no such thing as a relatively efficient electric heat source compared to others (unless you include heat pumps in the equation). So watts in converts to BTUs out, equally across the board, regardless of how you do it. Anything that runs on 12V in your situation, that you can control, should work just as well as anything else. Look for something that's weatherproof, if you want to prioritize among multiple options.

    BTW, I admire what you're doing! Down in the nearby boatyard, one of the shops has set up a little wooden shelter with a heat lamp. I've seen as many as three cats in there at once keeping warm in the colder months.

    -Phil
  • evanhevanh Posts: 15,918
    We're talking feral pet cats, right?
  • kwinnkwinn Posts: 8,697
    Inch and a half foam insulation with a reflective aluminum layer and the cat's own fur should be enough to keep it warm. Worked well on our property in Ontario Canada.
  • T ChapT Chap Posts: 4,223
    edited 2015-09-26 02:57
    Yeah I put in insulation with a shiny aluminum, but wanted to give it a boost! Feral, strays. I have been driving by this one cat for 2 years wondering how this thing survives the winter, several other people feed these guys daily and they are probably the most overfed cats in Atlanta.
  • BTW thanks for the explanation Phil, so whether it is a heating pad or light bulb, a watt will be the same amount of heat. I never knew that.
  • T Chap wrote: »
    BTW thanks for the explanation Phil, so whether it is a heating pad or light bulb, a watt will be the same amount of heat. I never knew that.

    Well not quite. A 25W heating pad is going to give you more heat than a 25W incandescent light bulb. And that is going to give off more heat than a 25W CFL bulb. So a watt consumed does not produce the same amount of heat. In this case, some of the energy is converted to light, which may or may not be felt as heat, especially the CFL example. You should look for a device that is made for heating, which minimizes wasted energy in light output. Unless you want to see the cats too.
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,256
    Phil's spot on about the power consumption, but there are a lot of unknown variables about your particular situation that might affect the best way to apply the heat, like a heating pad vs a heater/fan vs a radiant IR heat lamp. Air flow through the enclosure, convection, insulation, yada yada.
  • koehlerkoehler Posts: 598
    edited 2015-09-26 05:30
    Laudable.

    Phil's comment is interesting. If they are truely feral cats, will they actually allow another cat in the enclosure? Cats are solitary best I know, so you may end up with a territorial issue?

    Agree with the comments on a cheap insulated enclosure/s. I'd try to find some styrofoam coolers or get some of those plastic milk crates and insulate with that 2" foam flat stuff from Home Depot?
    3-4 of those should be doable for $10 in foam, dollar store duct tape, and a midnight mission behind your local supermarket.

    Extra karma-points for making entrances small enough to enter and exit only, to cut down on drafting. And, for using those cheapie silver mylar emergency blankets/sheet they have to re-radiate heat inside the enclosure.

    Might be a good idea to put a couple of drain holes in the floor in the front near the exit and tip the back of the enclosure up, so the water from blowing snow and melting snowy cats can exit and not end up with a skating rink when there is no cat inside for several hours...

    My understanding is that you will quickly kill a car battery if you go much below 50% DOD, so you should only expect a 100 AH rated battery to give ~50.

    Personally, I think it would be nigh on impossible and a terrible waste of time in this situation to:

    Run a Prop with a cheap load sensor or
    PIR sensor (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G18937) to detect when there is actually a cat inside and turn on a small
    12V 7.5W Polyimide Flexible Adhesive Thermo Foil Heater Heating Film (http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/231509156146?ul_noapp=true&chn=ps&lpid=82)
    Or
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-Universal-Heated-Grips-Inserts-Handlebar-Heater-Warmer-for-ATV-Motorcycle-/252050029672?hash=item3aaf5a3c68&vxp=mtr

    placed under a piece of sheet metal on the back/rear floor area of the enclosure. Not sure if it would work placed under a silver mylar sheet as mentioned above.

    Heck, get a cheap 1-wire temp sensor, and you'd be able to only turn on heating when there is something in the enclosure, and cycle the heater on/off several times an hour maybe, depending upon whether the temp is below whatever setpoint you want.

    Just moved back to NY, and while my dog is an inside dog, this would be a cool project for whenever I make him a dog house.

    Course, dogs have lived in unheated, drafty knock-ups for centuries without them apparently freezing up stiff very often.. I expect cats would find an old styrofoam cooler with most of the entrance blocked off to be more than decent.

  • koehler wrote:
    If they are truely feral cats, will they actually allow another cat in the enclosure?
    Warmth seems to transcend competition -- at least in the local boatyard. Of course, boatyard cats are, by nature, the most congenial of their species. :)

    -Phil
  • TorTor Posts: 2,010
    Sapphire wrote: »
    T Chap wrote: »
    BTW thanks for the explanation Phil, so whether it is a heating pad or light bulb, a watt will be the same amount of heat. I never knew that.

    Well not quite. A 25W heating pad is going to give you more heat than a 25W incandescent light bulb. And that is going to give off more heat than a 25W CFL bulb. So a watt consumed does not produce the same amount of heat. In this case, some of the energy is converted to light, which may or may not be felt as heat, especially the CFL example. You should look for a device that is made for heating, which minimizes wasted energy in light output. Unless you want to see the cats too.
    It actually all ends up as heat, just as Phil says. The difference is only that there may be different amounts of bothersome light. A 25W LED will in practice give you as much heat as a 25W incandescent lamp, it's just that it'll be extremely bright too. Put the source inside that cat house, and what's not infrared and felt directly as heat will be absorbed by the walls, b/c whenever it bounces off a wall some energy is absorbed until it's all absorbed (thus ending up as heat). Little is lost in the light "escaping" through the door. But when that's said, inside my closed storage area where I keep potatoes during the winter I use a special 'heating' incandescent light bulb when it gets so cold outside that my insulated storage room in the garage is risking freezing (with potatoes you want the temperature to hover just a few degrees above freezing). I want as little light as possible because light is not good for potatoes and with this low-glow light bulb a simple cover is sufficient. And a light bulb has just the right amount of wattage for the occasional heating I need a few times during the winter.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    Sapphire,
    A 25W heating pad is going to give you more heat than a 25W incandescent light bulb. And that is going to give off more heat than a 25W CFL bulb. So a watt consumed does not produce the same amount of heat.
    It all ends up as heat. Here is an experiment for you: Put a soldering iron into a litre of water in a thermos flask. Put a 10 watt LED into a litre of water in another thermos flask. Run them at 10 watts and measure the temperature of the water for some time. Report back here if you find any difference.

    But you do raise a valid point. We could say it's about "efficacy" rather than "efficiency".

    One could use the same power to heat a large are by one degree or a smaller area by 10 degrees, for example. The former would be pretty pointless. And yes if all the power ends up as light radiated into space that is pretty useless.

    My experience of feral cats living on dairy farms is that you rarely see them together. In fact you would rarely see them at all. But every morning you would see twenty odd cats with their heads in the same milk bowl at milking time. I guess being cold might make them very sociable as well.
  • I actually feed 4 cats in the morning near my office, 2 different locations. This main effort is for two of them that are inseparable that have become more of pets in a sense, ferrals that after a year are becoming social. If they will actually go in and stay in the box, then I will build some for the others. Thanks for the great info, I think I will try to use weather proof pet heating pads that are designed for underneath blankets etc. For fun I may use a Prop board that has a MAX6634 temp sensor and use a mosfet to turn on and off the pad. I was thinking to put a DAC to check the battery level, and have an LED outside the house that flashes when the battery is below a certain point indicating time to swap batteries. I have done similar things with marine batteries and a Mifi wireless hotspot, with internet cameras added that can all be controlled remotely from a website talking to the Propeller. So this will be an adaptation of that older system, only I can monitor the battery via a browser.
  • kwinnkwinn Posts: 8,697
    It would be an interesting experiment to measure and log both outside temperature and the temperature inside two enclosures, one with heating and one without to see how they compare when occupied by a cat.
  • kwinnkwinn Posts: 8,697
    @Heater

    AFAIK every form of energy produced by electricity eventually ends up as heat, so the conversion achieves 100% efficiency.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    kwinn,

    I think that is what I said isn't it? :)

    That is why I brought up "efficacy". How effective is the thing?

    You don't want all your energy going directly to heat the ground or radiating out into space or being taken away by the wind. No, you want it to go through the cat first !

    Of course we could define "efficiency" here as the ratio of the amount of heat that goes through the cat to the amount that does not.

    So we are going to need some insulation from the ground. And a little cat house with a small door. We might want a cat detector to wind up the heating a little when they are actually "home" so as not to waste so much when they are not.



  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2015-09-26 16:37
    A couple of practical concerns...
    Think Watts instead of Amps. .. Amps x Volts = Watts
    Heat generated is measured in Watts, or a series of terms that are equivalent of Watts.

    And why use a Lead acid battery in the winter? The battery itself will output significantly less Watts as the temperature drops.

    In other words, you might as well use 110VAC or 220 VAC and 120 Watt light bulb to provide the equivalent of 10Amps at 12VDC. But you don't have the AC available, right?

    And I haven't even addressed all the wasted power involved with charging the battery. IF you did want to be fancy, use a small hot water heater to heat water pumped through the floor of this cat shelter. I am not exactly sure where you would get the ideal small water heater, but the concept is sound. If the floor is warm, the cats will pretty much ward off the cold air with their fur.

    +++++++++++++
    Have you just considered digging a cave and letting ambient ground temperature be enough? I have doubts that the battery idea is going to work out as well as a cosy hole in the ground.

    If you desire to add heat, try a solar hot water heater and forget all that electrical stuff. Zero Amps might be a big win for the cats.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    Heat is measure in joules. It's just energy a measure of an amount of energy.

    Watts are a unit of power. That is to say the rate at which work is done or energy consumed. 1 watt is 1 joule per second.

    Certainly cold batteries are problematic. But I guess running a cable to where ever is even more problematic.




  • T Chap wrote: »
    ...
    The place where I am doing this in at the edge of some woods where I feed the cats near my office, I don't own the land and there is no electricity, and it is wooded so I don't thing solar is an option.
    ...

    I'm guessing a hot water heater, solar powered or not, isn't going to work either.

  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2015-09-26 16:45
    I thought Joules was the butler.
    Watts is indeed joules/sec. And if you really want to get into heat as work, there are more terms in thermodynamics.

    The main thing is that when you get into sub-zero weather, the battery is going drastically under perform. Barring having a geo-thermal source of power on the propery, solar is your best bet -- even in sub-zero weather.

    I know this thread is about cats, but there is a lot of knowledge out there about 'solar dog houses'... even in Arctic conditions.

  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2015-09-26 16:52
    Heat is work and work is heat....everything you need to know about thermodynamics is in the song 'First And Second Law' by Flanders and Swan:

  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2015-09-26 17:27
    I actually have a text in my personal library with an A.I.A award-winning solar heated dog house from the 1970s... complete plans.

    But I can't find it anywhere on the Web. But there are Arctic dog house designs that might get you started. Just add a solar water heater panel and a floor that emits heat from the water. Apparently somebody is making solar air heater using recycled soda cans. Personally, I would go with heating water or even anti-freeze as you could store heat in the liquid in a reserve tank.

    http://www.agcak.org/doghouseproject.html



    Sorry about linking pinterest. I generally avoid them, but they do have an example.
  • You might be better off with a controlled resettable exothermic reaction such as with Sodium Acetate... It could be controlled or metered at the desired rate that you need for the cats or whatever.

    You could perhaps use Solar energy (Electric or direct) to provide adequate energy levels to reset the Sodium Acetate reaction.
  • I wouldn't use antifreeze anywhere near something designed for dogs or cats. If it leaks, it's attractive to them as a sweet-tasting beverage -- and highly toxic.

    -Phil
  • Beau SchwabeBeau Schwabe Posts: 6,566
    edited 2015-09-26 18:24
    Sodium Acetate is not antifreeze, its a form of salt and actually used in food as a seasoning

    My thought is that the Sodium Acetate could be inside of a heat exchange unit where it would remain stationary. Within this heat exchange unit, the Sodium Acetate reaction could also be reset as necessary. The fluid circulating within the heat exchange unit and the floor of the "cat box" could be water, saltwater, oil, etc. ... whatever was deemed "safe".

    Reference:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_acetate
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2015-09-26 18:57
    Well, automotive anti-freeze may not be acceptible. And it is rather costly. But before we all used that stuff, just adding alcohol to water worked to some extent. If fact, Chemistry explains the molar depression of the freezing point of water in concise terms and one can merely create salt water or use sea water to get a lower freezing point. Lots of different things can be mixed with water to lower the freezing point.

    In other words, there are lots of liquids that could be used in a solar heat collector to both transfer and store heat to be use within the shelter. Water-based solutions are not a must, a light oil could be used in a closed loop with or without pumping (convection heat cycle can pump the fluid). Even recycled vegetable oil could be used if it would stay liquid.

    ++++++++++
    Having mentioned the 'Award-winning solar dog house', I dug out the book to see if I could copy the few pages to present to all of you. It ends up being a one-page plan for a passive solar heated dog house that is part of the USA's H.U.D. awards, not the A.I.A., circa 1979.

    The passive design is even more environmentally safe. No liquids, no lead-acid battery, and such. It just has a brick floor for a thermal mass, a glazed window set to the specifics of local sun angle, and lots of rigid insullation... all within a dog house built from 2 sheets of 1/2" plywood.

    The book itself is a classic as it rigourously demonstrates that snowy places get lots of sun and expensive, large homes can easily be heated throughout winter by passive solar.... if all the design features are exploited. Foggy places or places with lots of overcast rain are not optimal.

    It is 2:50AM here, so I don't want to drag out the camera and get a photo to post of the page. Since it is H.U.D. publication, the copyright is public domain. Maybe tomorrow I will post it.


    I simply don't think you need batteries, sophisticated chemistry, or expensive items to get this job done. The bricks can be swapped recycled concrete or flat rock. Rigid insultation and a bit of window glass (Are we going to provide thermo-pane?) would be most of the expense.

    But considering how many ways I can think of building a cheap solar hot water panel, I still lean toward that and having tubes run through hollow concrete block packed with sand and gravel for thermal storage and floor. Getting the window right and the sun angle right is a bit tricky. And I still feel that the glass looses a lot of heat. A solar hot water panel can have much more surface area to capture solar heat that the size of the window.

    Snow on the roof adds a lot to insulation.
    ========================
    Here is old Taiwan, the cats winter over on top of the power transformers. Because we have so many typhoons, our power transformers are at ground level and not atop poles.
  • RDL2004RDL2004 Posts: 2,554
    edited 2015-09-26 18:50
    It was a post before yours that mentioned anti-freeze.

    Personally, I doubt the cats need all that much help. It's Atlanta after all, not Alaska. Probably a cheap plastic storage container or two from Walmart with old blankets inside would be plenty good enough.
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2015-09-26 19:01
    Well, engineers just can't help but try to come up with an ultimate solution. I see now that you mentioned the area being wooded and that solar might not be appropriate.

    Any geo-thermal resources? ;)
  • W9GFOW9GFO Posts: 4,010
    I think that the amount of heat you are going to get from a 100 Ah (50 Ah max) battery over the course of days is going to be insignificant compared to the amount of heat you could retain through good insulation. Let the cats be the heat generators.
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2015-09-26 19:20
    Well..well.
    My best ideas seem to come to me after I turn off the computer and try to put my head in the pillows.

    Why not set up a compost pile as a heat source?

    Create a tunnel to the center of the pile where an upside-down tub or something provides the cats with shelter.

    It seems like the kind of area that you will be able to get all the compost you need in the coming months. And the compost will provide both heat and insullation.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    You should put your head on the pillow more often. That is an excellent idea. Zero amp solution.

    Also the idea of letting the cats generate the heat. Put the fuel into the cats.
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