China parts for robotics and ethical concerns.

Zap-o

Hello,

I am working on a small robot (boe-bot) and ordered up a dozen sensors from china & Hong Kong off ebay.

I wanted to ask a few questions and discuss potential ethical issues.

First.
Has anyone had bad experiences with these almost free PCBs listed on ebay? I am amazed how inexpensive they are and the shear number available. I intend on using the ones I ordered only for this prototype so fingers crossed they work as advertised. Sure the down side is long shipping times but what else?

Second.
Now a hypothetical situation. After thinking about some of my PCB construction limits at home it dawned on me.

Lets say one of the ebay sellers actually makes these PCBs or is connected to a business who makes the PCBs. All I want to do is add a circuit or put another IC on a PCB that the seller already is providing, effectively modifying the one being sold on ebay. Lets say I contact the seller and enter into an agreement to have the modification done so that I could purchase it off ebay as a Revision 2.0.

Is this illegal? I ask because I hear about the need for a china / american-broker and I ask because it seems I may be slipping past a few market strong holds, as in customs, taxes, fees and other regulations I have no clue about.

Any advice and or help is always appreciated.

Leon

Where are those "almost free PCBs listed on Ebay"?

Zap-o

Leon,

If you head over to ebay and search "anything" arduino, you should get a multitude of links. I searched "arduino accelerometer" as an example and returned was over 3oo links. Try other sensors you want with arduino attached to said sensor.

Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)

I've had bad luck with cheap Chinese compass modules from eBay. You can read about my experience here:

http://forums.parallax.com/discussion/158176

-Phil

Heater.

Zap-o,

Lets say I contact the seller and enter into an agreement to have the modification done so that I could purchase it off ebay as a Revision 2.0.

I have no experience of getting stuff made in China. But from reading stories of those who have, including Parallax if I remember correctly, you really need to be there in China to make sure they make what you want, correctly and to a quality you want. Otherwise in are in danger of getting a pile of junk back for your money.

This I think is where the "china / american-broker" comes in. Someone you can trust who can manage things and check everything and knows their way around. Just to make sure you don't get ripped off.

I seriously believe you stand little chance of just sending anyone a new schematic/layout and getting them to make it so you can buy if off ebay.

You could find a manufacturer to make a run for you. But then that is going to cost you a lot and calls for that presence in China etc.

Then of course you are a business. And you can take care of all that import/export and taxes and regulations and the whole show.

LoopyByteloose

Well, the price is right. But the quality control and customer service are very hit and miss. Supporting documentation is often non-existent, but you learn to dig up PDFs from parts number, like a real engineer.

Ethical? I see that Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle all had a lot to say about ethics, and we still have a huge debate with little resolved. The Japanese supposedly claimed "Business is war". China is likely to just say "Business is business" and leave you wondering what that means.

I had a girl friend that was getting her Masters, and then Phd in Economics here in Taiwan and she was a bit dismayed that everyone felt their was no economic model that couldn't perform better by cheating and not getting caught. But it is difficult if not impossible to not get caught.

Of course, we are seeing what happens when you get caught in the VW news today.

But do you seriously think that bargaining with someone in Hong Kong is that simple? Hong Kong has long been a great place to find a bargain that is too good to be true.

I still feel honesty is the best policy as there are less unpleasant surprises and it is easier to sleep at night... not so much because it is ethical but because it make life a bit better. Being unethical is like sleeping with a ticking bomb and just wondering when.

Spend your money where it will do both you and others the most good.

Zap-o

Thanks for the advice and input. I kind of know or have a feeling some of these parts may fail but as a prototype i can afford time. I also noted most of the sellers offered a return policy and so that may be tested too.

I suspect if the sensor PCB has a defective IC I still have the option to repair it. I currently have no PCB manufacturing option.

As far as trading with the Chinese ebay seller and making the change on the PCB I guess ill go with my gut.

LoopyByteloose

EBay's own refund policy is the best part of protecting yourself. Also, Pay-pal.

I have had PC boards made in Chinese to order in the past using Eagle CAD. That can be done, but it is really difficult to find something that has enough demand to make it worthwhile.

I have dealt three times through another discount source for these kind of items and found there were long delays in filling the orders and so on. At least, EBay will help you quickly get what you buy. I'd try to avoid ordering from Deal Extreme.

Keith Young

Before getting anything custom made in China, I suggest you read "Poorly Made in China."

It sums up the experiences from many business owners that I've talked to.

Essentially they seek to continually improve margins by gradually reducing the cost to manufacture including cutting corners on materials etc. Recourse will be difficult as far as I know since you're seeking damages across borders.

That said there is a ton of opportunity for those who do it right.

Duane Degn

I've listed some of the inexpensive parts I like in this thread.

http://forums.parallax.com/discussion/comment/1305932/#Comment_1305932

I think a lot of the parts from China are fine but I've received a few duds. I've read others say they have about a 20% dud rate and this matches my experience.

I've used several different PCB manufacturers in China. Some of these places also offer solder paste stencils. I've been pleased with the boards I've had made so far.

Peter Jakacki

If you want to put another chip on an existing PCB be aware that this is a production change and rather than negotiating with the ebay seller you need to go to the source of that product, the actual manufacturer. Good luck.

Now if you manage to find and communicate with the manufacturer and they actually understand what you want they will probably give you a quote for a "prototype run", say about 10,000 units and you must pay engineering and production costs up front. Not so cheap! What! you only want ten or fifty or even one thousand of them? Ever!? You are wasting their time as the only way to sell cheap and make money is big volume.

But as pointed out don't expect quality or what you ordered, you could get box loads of junk back simply because they followed your instructions to the letter as they understood them even it is as dumb as putting the chip in back to front. I once got back a shipment of pcbs nicely made but still in sets on production panels that were not routed out simply because they misinterpreted a simple request and the usual answer is "yes" rather than asking for clarification.

So be aware that ebay sellers are not little makers eager to do a new board for the love of it because "it's not personal, it's just business".

erco

From my understating, the only reason those parts are dirt cheap is because they are overproduced and piling up in surplus. Many are factory seconds or rejects. The cheap sellers are far from the manufacturers, in many cases the parts are drop shipped from Singapore or Malaysia. If you did get in touch with the manufacturer to talk about a minor mod (much less a custom board), expect the price to increase 5-10 times, and as previously stated, your MOQ will be in the thousands.

Dr_Acula

Not sure about modifying an existing board, but I have had a lot of success making my own boards and fitting modules on them. For instance, there are lots of stepup and stepdown modules for under $2. They work fine, and the module is cheaper than the parts used to make them. So I bought a few, tested them, they seem to work fine, so then measured the pin distances as accurately as I could (they happened to be in mm, not 0.1 inches) then created a part in Eagle, and then got my boards made so I could add these modules. Buy one. If it works, buy 10. Buy 50.
It is cheap to get a run of 10 small pcbs made, eg $10 at Seeed.
Some things from china are super dodgy, such as the capacity written on pretty much any rechargeable battery. But other things, such as small modules on PCBs, seem very reliable and very good value. Arduino boards for $5, displays for similar sorts of prices, pretty much any sensor you want, relay modules.

MJB

This is not about robotics - but I just have a GOOD experience with china.
For irrigation and heating system I needed a number (~40) motorized ball valves.
Going through AliExpress I contacted the manufacturer,
negociated for several different types 2/3 way different diameter etc.
with motors running from 3-6V (really runs on 2 1.5V batteries)
so can run it remotely controlled by a ESP8266.
So even with the transport to germany at 130€ + tax 170€ I am still at about 50% of the cost compared to ordering from german ebay seller ...
And the package came via express in 3 weeks after ordering.


aliexpress.com/item/CWX-15-1-2-brass-electric-water-valve-DC12v-CR05-with-five-wires-and-feedback-signal/32322499219.html

JoseMM

Hello Zap-o,
I have not used those PCBs from Ebay but I recommend you try with an American manufacturer instead of a chinese one.
My partners work with prototype PCBs from PCB UNLIMITED. They say that they offer high quality, good lead times and low costs so I believe that they are reliable.
You can visit their website ( http://www.pcbunlimited.com ) and check if they have what you are looking for, since they have many options.

Zap-o

Thanks JoseMM

So far many of the parts are still being shipped but some have arrived and are working as described. This is fantastic for prototyping. Ill keep your link on file looks great too.