Suggestion: "off-topic" forum category
Seairth
Posts: 2,474
If Parallax is going to encourage (or at least tolerate) off-topic (not Parallax-related) discussions, could a separate category be set up for it? Moderators can move wayward threads from other categories to this one to help keep the noise down (including in the General Discussions category).
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Comments
You meet a few unusual people that your really can exchange ideas from and learn. But every once in a while and inappropriate vagabond wanders to your table and wants to insert some rather obscure and dubious opinion.
Either this is a public coffee house as defined by the host, or it is something else -- maybe a private club for Parallax customers.
In seems to me that regardless of the designated format and purpose, there are some garrulous individuals that just want to post a comment everywhere.
I fear that adding an off-topic zone will just invite more and more stuff that wanders further and further away.
My feelings are (a) make an effort to read the rules and apply them, (b) make an effort to be self-moderating and aware of what the Parallax Forum community is about, include its host, Parallax, and (c) listen to the moderators when they intervene.
General Discussing replace the Sandbox just because that was too wide of the mark for people to self-moderate. I don't that going back to a Sandbox by any other name is going to do much good.
But I a happy to invite discussion on improving the overall Parallax Forum experience, even if people are telling to be quite and more selective in my contributions.
We used to have an Ignore button that just made the annoying posters disappear from your personal experience.
Often, our "free association" topics lead to some interesting discussions since we generally have trouble even keeping off-topic discussion on-topic! :thumb:
The idea is good, and yes, other forums do this without the sky falling, but given Parallax were 'unable' to create a separate Forums-issues topic, do not hold your breath.
Here is an off-topic example, from another forum. of
A wooden, mechanical, 6-bit binary adder
http://www.avrfreaks.net/forum/wooden-mechanical-6-bit-binary-adder
Awkward as it can be, trying to behave slightly "on topic", in an "about off topic" thread!
The link doesn't worked at all, showing only an "Access denied. You must log in to view this page."
So, with a little help of our giggles freund, it appear that Hackaday had it on display, almost six year ago.
http://hackaday.com/2009/10/13/binary-adder-will-give-you-slivers/
Henrique
Hard to regulate IMO. Per mindrobots, a bit of meandering is normal among creative folks, where enthusiasm and "what if" can suggest reasonable diversions.
I'm guessing your post might have something to do with one or two recent OS threads, which did get old right quick...
The General Discussion forum is the off-topic discussion forum. That said, as of late it is also the source of a great many posts that go against the posted rules. It is a difficult task just to keep up with what we have now. But adding additional off-topic forums would just exacerbate the situation in my opinion.
It is difficult to keep up. I begin to wonder if 'the rules' have again be revised in the past few days or so. (They say 'edited July 25th, so I think I am good.)
I see we have a parallel universe exposed for the Scribbler. And sudden shuffles between threads displayed chronologically (which seem to work for me) and vote popularity (which confounds me entirely).
=======
I try to comply, but have no idea if I have failed to do so and just never got an email about a removed or locked thread. Maybe I have just gotten confused.
I sudden see some of my posts have disappeared and the moderator mentions 'beware of moving floors'.
In short, you really have to directly tell the people that are the problem that they are the problem or these public notices give the wrong impression.
If Searith 'off-topic' topic is out-of-bounds, lock the thread and make it go away. Otherwise it will haunt us in days to come. I image sometime in 2021 someone will find it in a search engine and revive it.
Loopy,
If you had a post deleted I would like to know about it. It is not normal to delete a post without letting somebody know.
There are two types of moderators, Parallax employees, and volunteers like myself.
Of course parallax employees may trump my suggestions but we always have emails regarding the situation.
Loopy, don't worry about where we're going it's up to the forum members to determine that, and you're a big part of that.
Cheers
I just noticed the 'Popular Tag' thread got a lot shorted and my contributions we not to be found.
I am not even sure who the moderators are anymore as I do see how to verify who is who --- unless their signature include 'moderator'. In fact Publison, are you really a moderator? You may have quit or been let go and are just pretending.
Forgive me, I feel naughty and wicked today.
Is that so? I'd think the "General Discussion" topics would be those that are still related to the Parallax ecosystem, but not appropriate for another category. This would include (for example):
Off-Topic would be:
There would be no change to the existing moderating requirements. If the category for a topic is wrong, you move it to a more appropriate category (which may be "Off-Topic"). If someone starts a thread in the "Off-Topic" category, the same forum rules would apply as if it were in any of the other categories.
But, whatever you all decide, that's fine. I've made my case. If such a category wont be added, then just lock and sink this thread so we can move on. Either way, thanks for listening/considering it!
Loopy,
I am still the same person that has been around here since 2006 , so I am part of this family. Yes, I am still a moderator. And none of the moderators have changed. Whether they be Parallax or volunteers.
On the popular tag thread make sure you don't have by a vote clicked. There is no conspiracy to delete threads or posts.
I can't be let go of the job I never had.
Just a volunteer for 12 hours a day.
Having a forum for the type of topics you're talking about means yet one more forum to have to maintain and moderate, because let's face it, these off-topic posts sometimes turn into flame wars, negative comments and other things that don't contribute to the overall support and use of Parallax products. Then we (moderators) miss them until they're reported and then we have to come in and clean up a thread that probably should not have happened because it doesn't even belong here.
It sounds like there should be a third-party forum somewhere for tech chatter which isn't related to Parallax product support. A place where you can discuss O/S wars and the latest eBay deals, etc. Remember that the primary reason for these forums is to provide another method of support for our products which includes the community. When someone asks, "I want to use sensor X in application Y to accomplish goal Z" it's nice to have a community who can offer their own experiences and suggestions instead of the one demo/example code we have on the product page.
There are so many forums designed for general chattrer and which are not support and/or company forums. I used to have one myself on Savage///Circuits. But I abandoned it for lack of any traffic/participation. It seems that these third party forums are designed for various types of discussions and topics not necessarily relevant here. It's a big job trying to moderate and maintain these forums besides learning the new software. But having to deal with the negativity from members who want things a particular way isn't really helping anything. There are forums out there which cater to what you're looking for. Try ZappBots, for example. These open forums are dying because nobody is using them. They are designed for the stuff you want to talk about that doesn't really fit here.
Unless you expect a dedicated off-topic category to increase the average posting activity on the forums, it shouldn't have any impact on the moderation of the forums overall. The same off-topic posts that are already being posted would just be in a different category, no more or less. In fact, you might even lighten your load if we end up with fewer off-topic posts showing up in the existing categories.
As for getting rid of off-topic posts altogether, I do agree that there are some which simply add noise (there are a few active ones right now, in fact). But I don't think you can (or should) get rid of off-topic posts altogether! Imagine if Ken suddenly told all Parallax employees that you cannot have any discussions that aren't related to Parallax. You may comply, but it would make for a much less pleasant environment. In the same way, the forum community would suffer by removing *all* off-topic posts.
How about this: don't call it "off topic". Call it "Water Cooler". That way, those of us who don't hang around the water cooler can easily ignore those posts (they don't get in the way of other topical posts). Further, this has another advantage: when forum users see off-topic comments in an on-topic post, we can simply ask that those commenters take the off-topic conversation to the Water Cooler. (I would have said that A LOT on a couple of the P2 threads...)
But, as I said before, if Parallax has no intent to do it, please go ahead and lock/sink this thread. No more discussion is necessary.
I do appreciate what you are saying. We don't want the place to descend into a swamp. There are plenty of those on the net already.
On the other hand. People come here because they find Parallax and it's products interesting. They stop by and chat here because it has attracted other interesting people with things in common to discuss.
Certainly "...it's nice to have a community who can offer their own ....[ whatever ]". Parallax gets a free support network. That's fine but there is a small price to pay, sometimes things can run wild and a bit of moderation is required.
Sound like a fair deal to me. The word "community" is bandied about a lot now a days. Well, communities are messy things.
To be honest I have not seen anything particular bad going on here for ages.
Heater, I hear what you're saying about the community. At the same time it is actually unusual to find a company support forum that allows for non-topic discussion. Most company forums I have gone to in the past aren't designed for general chatter/discussion at all and I have had my posts removed for asking the community questions about their experiences with a product instead of posting a support question to the moderators. I guess what I am saying is that general discussion here is kind of a bonus.
It sounds easy on the outside to ask for one more forum but I can hardly keep up with the specific messages I watch for, much less having to go into yet one more area to look for spam, flame war posts, etc. And then there's the number of posts complaining about the new software. It's here, it's staying and we have to make it work. We're making the changes we can, but we can't address every issue that is reported. And when that happens posting negativity about it only hurts the forums as a whole. I've been thinking lately how we might address some of these issues, but there's no easy answer.
Actual issues with forum functionality, security, even aesthetics will get fixed (I hope) and hence the gripes will cease.
Or the gripers (word?) will get tired of their griping and get on with whatever there is.
Or in the extreme the gripers will not visit any more. I suspect those are very few.
I don't see any need for more forum categories. "General Discussion" is general discussion is it not?
This community thing is a synergistic relationship: Parallax provides the land and the tools, and we hammer together the forum from the ground up. Yes, that's right: we built this place, one post at a time, not Parallax. But, yes again, we're merely sharecroppers on this tract. However, without its tenants and their broad spectrum of interests, and a fertile, welcoming ground for the exchange of diverse ideas, there would be no forum.
So yes, Parallax, like it or not, if you want a forum where users support you and your products, you in turn have to support -- or at least tolerate -- the untidiness, the foment, and even the dissent that comes from an actively-engaged community. Consider the alternative: can't you just hear the wind whistling through the sagebrush?
-Phil
Where ? I missed that ? What does "'beware of moving floors'" even mean ?
I have no idea why that brain-dead vote 'feature' is even still there.
It only serves to spawn confusion.
Both scenarios are gone by having one category for both.
well prior to a couple of months ago when they deep-sixed it in preparation for corp fire sale.
The Mods simply watched the Off-Topic and put out fires.
Funny thing was, the rest of the forums really were/are primarily focused as they should be.
Very little off-topic, mundane one could say.
If General is also Off-Topic, thats fine.
Parallax is getting lots of support from people taking their time to help out Parallax's customers.
That means a lot of people are spending time HERE on the forums, versus some other e-commerce Maker-type, uC company, tech-enthusiast forum.
Part and parcel of that time spent, people want to vent or tell a joke, or talk about something not directly related, to the friends they have made here.
But it sounds like Parallax might like that to happen somewhere else rather than keep people actually on the site even longer?
With all due respect, thats crazy.
Most websites would kill to get more people to their site.
And after that, do whatever they can to keep those people engaged, and glued to their site for as long as possible.
EDIT- I just saw Phil's post above, and I have to agree with him on the whole.
To some extent, the vibe I've gotten from some of the web-team's posts and others at Parallax, is that the forum is a royal PITA, and people were already overworked without having to deal with the massive amount of forum moderation that is required here...
I see 2 options:
1. Go the MicroChip way, with just a product focused forum setup, and use warnings a banhammer for off-topic.
You will get a higher signal/noise ratio, and probably lower hosting bandwidth costs.
2. Continue on as now, accept that there is some work involved in running a forum, and when you make mistakes which cost you time and money and cause Customer discomfort, try not to make it worse by telling your customers that they are part of the problem. Not sure what that will do to your signal/noise ratio, but it will definately lower hosting bandwidth costs.
All in all more work to maintain. What we have already is fine.
Masters of the art like myself and others here I won't name can be off topic wherever we go without even trying. Never understanding why people don't get the connection we are making.
Thanks for the great work, really appreciate the effort.
Ken Gracey
1. Moving floors…. That was a reference to retro-gaming which seemed appropriately light-hearted given the circumstances- that I was moderating computer-related topic/s.
OK, perhaps that was my misstep, as whilst all the participants of those threads under moderation were also participating actively in the “other” threads and would have? got the point immediately, I appreciate new “passers by” might not have understood the message.
1a. The upshot was that this Suggestion thread started by Seairth was derailed spectacularly from topic!!! Regardless that such activity is against forum rules, it also seemed to me that the new content was rather useful and deserved it's own thread (and especially that it was 25+ posts long!).
As such, rather than deleting (which would have been much quicker for a happy-go-lucky moderator), I split the thread into 2 topics such that the new content was posted here: http://forums.parallax.com/discussion/161928/ot-linux-file-system-tagging
Whilst I thought this re-arrangement would have been automatically visible to the thread participants- maybe that was not the case (according to some responses), so clearly I've learned for the future to go back and post a link when “splitting” occurs (assuming the content and forum rules are in harmony
2. Heavy handed moderation (and such like)….. Seems I split one thread to keep the content on-topic, and after both public and private consultation with some forum members closed 2 other threads and opened a new thread space for OT OS chit-chat. That doesn't feel heavy handed or uncalm to me! Clearly you've never seen me angry! Very very dark green angry!
Seriously… I'm all for off-topic chats; they form a bedrock of this community. I'm perhaps not such an old timer or experienced hand as many of you, but I've been hanging out here since 2006, and can remember many engaging OT threads in that time that have got me through wake-up coffee time. I always remember the moderation of the past masters (Chris, Phil, Mike, Bean to mention a few)- they made sure OT discussions didn't derail threads (topics), and that the forum always seemed a positive and engaging place for the casual passer by.
I'd hope we'd all agree that as moderator, one of my duties is to take the objective view and steer content appropriately as required for the benefit of the entire Parallax ecosystem. For each forum member public complaint, we might have 10x the members expressing more private frustrations. No one really objects, no one is really sure of the exact issue- but the mood somehow steps over an uncomfortable line. And as moderators we are trusted by you all to try and keep things balanced.
So yes, a moderator might “move things around” from time to time, but it's always in good spirit and in hope of something positive. I'm an optimist and encourager at heart! Everyone should just keep talking, and should the natural flow of conversation see the content drift from topic, then feel free to ask our help with splitting out threads.
You can rely on your friendly neighbourhood moderator team to keep your creative thoughts organised!
Michael.
BTW.. Don't hesitate to PM the moderators on anything you disagree or need help with. I'm seldom offended, and always try my best to engage with all ideas- although most preferably when presented in a respectful and cool manner of course! I'm working on the Central European timezone, and Jim is on Pacific as I recall, so we try to cover round-the-clock as best we can.
++++++++++++
VonSzvaras...
Not sure where all the new moderation strategies might take us. They do make it more awkward to defend policies. While splitting the Tab thread into two may have seemed appropriate, the solution is awkward.
I got a PM from Parallax stating that they will not notify posters of such changes to their contributions. So I am at a bit of a loss as to how continuity of information is going to work out.
It seems to me that the main mission of the Parallax Forums should be to enhance the user experience with Parallax products via collaboration, demonstration of creative solutions, and calling attention to new approaches; and that all this other discussion is simply trivial at best.