Forum Guidelines
Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)
Posts: 23,514
The guidelines seem reasonable, for the most part. However, this paragraph troubles me for reasons that I and other forumistas have previously expressed:
"Removal of Posts/Locked Posts/Relocation of Posts:
Parallax Discussion Forums’ moderators hold the right to remove, sink, lock, or
relocate errant, overly negative, or belligerent posts and threads. In
some cases this action will warrant public notification or warning;
however not all corrections made will require such action. We can choose
to conduct these actions privately. If the inappropriate behavior
continues after warnings have been issued, failure to comply will result
in a temporary and/or permanent ban."
This would seem to indicate that anonymous -- or silent -- thread-sinking is still among the moderation tools deemed acceptable. This practice, also referred to as "submarine torpedoing" by another highly-respected forum member seems contrary to the openness that Parallax purports to foster. Moreover, it could easily have the opposite effect from what is desired, in that it might only enrage the person to whom it's applied, prompting further misbehavior. I firmly believe that sinking or locking a thread should always be accompanied by a notice to that effect, stating the reasons for such action.
Therefore, I urge the admins to reconsider this policy, to embrace openness, and to state in the guidelines that any thread-sinking/locking will be accompanied by a post stating the reasons for it. This is not to say, however, that spam posts and others of that ilk cannot simply be removed without notice. That has always been the practice and should continue going forward.
Thanks,
-Phil
"Removal of Posts/Locked Posts/Relocation of Posts:
Parallax Discussion Forums’ moderators hold the right to remove, sink, lock, or
relocate errant, overly negative, or belligerent posts and threads. In
some cases this action will warrant public notification or warning;
however not all corrections made will require such action. We can choose
to conduct these actions privately. If the inappropriate behavior
continues after warnings have been issued, failure to comply will result
in a temporary and/or permanent ban."
This would seem to indicate that anonymous -- or silent -- thread-sinking is still among the moderation tools deemed acceptable. This practice, also referred to as "submarine torpedoing" by another highly-respected forum member seems contrary to the openness that Parallax purports to foster. Moreover, it could easily have the opposite effect from what is desired, in that it might only enrage the person to whom it's applied, prompting further misbehavior. I firmly believe that sinking or locking a thread should always be accompanied by a notice to that effect, stating the reasons for such action.
Therefore, I urge the admins to reconsider this policy, to embrace openness, and to state in the guidelines that any thread-sinking/locking will be accompanied by a post stating the reasons for it. This is not to say, however, that spam posts and others of that ilk cannot simply be removed without notice. That has always been the practice and should continue going forward.
Thanks,
-Phil
Comments
Seems like a good analogy to me. I suppose all we can do is wait and see how this tool is used or abused.
IMO, sinking a thread without notice is much worse than locking a thread without notice. At least a locked thread appears as locked. There is not an easy way to identify which threads have been sunk.
I personally despise strongly dislike thread sinking and I'd very much like to see it done away with on this forum.
I can't even imagine how these abhorrent and pointless practices are even considered as "OK" for more than a second.
I believe Thread Locking has been used very little during the past. I have only done it once. OK, maybe twice)
When it has been implemented, I believe most people agreeded with the decision. To continue the thread would do more harm than good to the community.
I agree. Moderation on the Parallax forums has always been very fair and as far as I can tell used sparingly.
By the way, your post raises another forum issue. We cannot tell who is a moderator posting here and who is not.
As far as thread sinking, I had to google it to find out what it was. The second hit was here at the Parallax forums. The rest of the first few pages was mostly sewing related. Seems like maybe no one else is really using it. The old forum worked fine without thread sinking, I see no justification to use it now.
I can't think of one time I've objected to a thread being locked on the Parallax forum.
I can't think of a time I've not objected to a thread being sunk on the Parallax forum.
I'm personally glad Parallax moderates the forum but I agree with Phil that such moderation should be transparent. I could probably live with thread sinking as long as there was always a notice given when a thread was being sunk.
Go to their profile, look at the roles. For Publison, it's
Registered Users, Moderators
You mean I have to do that for every forum member to check if they are really moderators or just messing with me?
You prompted me to look at my own profile, it says "GCC Developer, Propeller C - EDU Group"
Do what? I am no GCC developer and I don't even know what a "Propeller C - EDU Group" is !
I personally don't care much. I'll know who the moderators are over time. If I'm moderated, I should know as that moderator should be communicating something or other with me. And the intent on that is good, so no worries in the end.
We are all just users man. Friends of the forum. This is part of why I almost never accept or ask for moderation ability. Doing that sort of changes things, and for me it's a negative.
I think we should have a fight room. lol Start a thread, sink it, limit the involved users to that thread, until they love one another or leave. Others are read only, and can vote their faves! (no, I'm absolutely not serious --well, mostly. I would totally do it, no harm, no foul.)
I think we should have a fight room....
What a brilliant idea!
Here we have the despicable thread sinking idea. Other forums have the idea of moving threads to an "off topic" area, which is marginally better.
No, stuff it, never mind all that nicey-nicey, ever so polite, terribly tolerant, politically correct nonsense. Throw them in the ring and see who comes out.
Kind of like this:
http://forums.parallax.com/discussion/152201/the-official-javascript-religious-war-thread
Sorry, I missed this:
"you could use that style sheet browser extension to put the roles near the username"
How about we throw away the Vanilla PHP code and we just get a restful API to the forum MySql database directly. Then we can display it however we like
Actually, on another small politics related haunt I've frequented for way too many years now, we did something a lot like that. There were two who just would not let it go... They both were reasonable contributors and they both had friends among the rest too. What to do?
So we talked 'em into it, and the only speech barred was criminal speech. Every last thing goes. The crowd was adults, mostly men, couple of women, basically doing the online version of a primary school throw down, "fight! fight! fight!" Sad, but hey. Life is short.
One thread, only those two, free to have at it! Get the whole works out of their system. Settle it, or somebody leaves, and they have to agree on who goes. Kind of brutal, but very interesting social experiment.
Truth is, they actually did end up friends, and OH MAN! The library of absolutely fantastic insults we got from that was over the top great! It took a few days, and most of us were LMAO the whole time. I think the most entertaining part was some basic truths that came out. Both of them were able to just say it with impunity. Both of them were stunned more than once too. Like, "really? dang, well ok... let me say this then!" Was sort of a mutual disparagement where the truth hurts, but everybody has some truth that hurts, so maybe it's best to move on result.
That kind of thing really would not work with any kind of a larger crowd. But it was in a little out of the way place, with long time regulars kind of holding it together. And the norm there is very liberal speech among adults. Frank, and pretty real. We've also talked through some really tough stuff on that one. Helped a few of the members out with some deep thoughts or personal issues. That kind of cuts both ways. Great when it's great, crappy when it's crappy.
Many of us will gather about once a year in a bar and just yack the place closed. Maybe call a few of the ones who live far away. So there is enough of a bond for that sort of thing to work.
So I'm not serious about it here, but it can be a brilliant thing. Maybe. We probably got lucky, but it was awesome.
One other thing. Over the years, participating in a no moderation type place like that is a big part of why I just don't get offended easy. Truth is, I've heard it. Seriously. I have. I've been grumpy here, or angry, and that sucks, and it's good to be put on notice for that and get it sorted too, but nobody here ever has even come within shouting range of any real harm. Would have a beer and a chat with anyone here without even a second thought.
So we have it good. Really good. And I think the changes reflect some of us being detail oriented, let's get it fixed and running good types who will just take a while for it all to work out.
TL;DR -- This too shall pass.
Mind you, I have no idea how we tell who the winner is.
-Phil
I put it in the story above. Basically, they figure that out. Either they resolve it, and it's fine. Everybody carries on, no worries. Or, they realize they can't, and somebody leaves, or submits, or whatever it has to be.
And you just don't let them out, until it's over. Brutal, but very highly likely to be definitive.
The winner is either both of them, or one of them, or none of them, and it's a test of character and will. No holds barred.
We get entertainment.
***Yes, OF COURSE Parallax wouldn't have that. And I know that. But, it's Friday, and sometimes thoughts like that creep in, and sometimes I feel like sharing them. You have no idea what lurks in the lesser traveled nooks and crannies of the spud brain. Neither do I.
And I like it that way.
Except code. That is a mess and we really should double down on making that simple, easy, etc...
One thing I really do like is the notification system works on threads I follow. So, I tag the ones I know I want to carry on with. The others may pop up on the discussions link, or may not, and that gives me two modes now.
Mode A is check in, new discussions, skim, participate or done, next. Mode B is the notifications link, see who contributed, do what I think makes sense, done, next. I can check in on "B" with my mobile super easy. And I do, when I have a few minutes. This is a net gain to me.
For years now, I've lived by the rule in my signature, and I really won't put words online that I can't live with. And I can live with a lot. My own tolerances for speech are really solid. Speech is just speech. If the venue permits, I could write things that make people regret they ever even learned to read. Or, I can let it roll off and laugh too.
And I use a few forums. This one, a couple of entertainment only, chat with friends on current events kinds of things, and some vendor / career / corporate type places where it's help a buddy, get help from 'yer buddies kind of thing. They all have their problems, some more than others.
Like with operating systems, I just get good at plain vanilla then move on. I find this maximizes my time for things I want to do instead of fixating on meta things related to the things I want to do.
YMMV, of course.
Oh wow. I think seeing you put TL;DR on your own post is the funniest thing I have seen all week.
I'm up for that a beer and a chat if I ever get across the pond by the way. Real beer mind you none of that bud nonsense.
I get the impression we would very easily yack a place closed. Good times one day.
Thread locking is a standard, part and parcel of forums since the internet started almost.
Its transparent, whether you like it or not.
This 'thread sinking' is nothing more than an euphemism for censoring.
Its nothing more than a cajone-less way of killing of someone's unwanted discussion, rather than publicly locking it.
Haven't run across this on any other forum, and I've been on some pretty loud ones.
Open Source, blah blah blah. If you can't deal with posts transparently, then you are simply not Open.
Whatever discussion the P2 ends up having on other forums, talk about how this forum secretly sinks threads will become well known. That should certainly help Parallax...