Roy Eltham,
"...whining gray haired babies..."
Yep, that's me. You make it sound so negative. I believe users should complain. Complaining gets things done. The squeaky wheel gets the oil and all that. Would you rather that people just leave? Could get very lonesome around here. We have confidence this damage will be fixed and the patience to hang on for that. In the mean time pointing out the issues is constructive criticism. "If you hate me a little more now..."
We love you Roy. Despite your little tantrum there.
Tymkrs,
"Some of the complaints are because people just haven't done enough exploration..."
For sure.
But don't put the blame on the customers here.
When you get into a car where the steering wheel is on the other side. The gear selector works backwards. You have to pull on the brake peddle to stop. Oh and you have to drive on the other side of the road whilst looking out of the side window. I think you might complain.
The forum is a user interface to Parallax. Like that gear stick. Break it at your peril.
I didn't contribute a lot of content to this site, but if I had I doubt I'd put up with this. I think instead of telling the people who are complaining to stop, everyone should be thankful some people ARE NOT complaining.
I'm going to step in here for one important thing. I've had to edit several posts to remove harsh words/language. Regardless of the state of things here and how individuals feel about it, there are still school children visiting and reading these forums and the bad/unwelcome words need to stop.
Roy, I take real issue with your comments and insinuation.
It's fine congratulating the team on fixes after the fact, but the forum shouldn't have been made public before it was ready. Would you reward Parallax for rushing out a slipshod product, just because they addressed its problems afterward?
The damage has been done by the lack of openness and communication. This has been poorly managed. The "aw, gee, they'll fix it eventually" attitude ignores the real slap in the face that comes from a show of disloyalty toward customers. I don't see any evidence of a beta test among select users, or private input during a soft launch from respected moderators like Phil. To me, this shows a disregard for the customers who actually use this product. And it IS a product.
No, I don't think you would defend them if they turned out a piece of junk. So why do you do it here? It's not like they didn't have the opportunity and volunteers to make it right first time around.
I'm going to step in here for one important thing. I've had to edit several posts to remove harsh words/language. Regardless of the state of things here and how individuals feel about it, there are still school children visiting and reading these forums and the bad/unwelcome words need to stop.
Chris,You missed several dozen (if not hundreds) more instances of the words '*****' and '******' on these forums when you filtered my post of just those two words. They were used in very similar meaning and context. Please be consistent and remove all instances of those words if they are indeed deemed bad and should be removed. You can find many of them with simple searches (even with the forums limited search ability).I am totally fine having those words censored in my post if they are deemed bad for the forums, but I believe it's only fair that they be removed from all postings here if that is the case. Thanks, Roy
Chris,You missed several dozen (if not hundreds) more instances of the words '*****' and '******' on these forums when you filtered my post of just those two words. They were used in very similar meaning and context. Please be consistent and remove all instances of those words if they are indeed deemed bad and should be removed. You can find many of them with simple searches (even with the forums limited search ability).I am totally fine having those words censored in my post if they are deemed bad for the forums, but I believe it's only fair that they be removed from all postings here if that is the case. Thanks, Roy
This is just a case of me not having read every message on these forums or they all would have been censored. I try to rely on common sense that the forum rules are read and understood. But perhaps I need to do a search and try to find these other posts.
You're welcome to send me a list of threads with such words and I will moderate them all equally.
P.S. - You also posted these words again in an attempt to make your point, exacerbating the problem.
Chris,
I love the paradox here. Some words seem to be banned. However I'm sure they are not spelled out in any forum rules we can read on account of being banned.
Is there anyway you can PM me the blacklisted words for reference?
Perhaps I can add some more for the readers on the east side of the pond.
The English chap, Conor Lennon, who is leading the webcasts on Solar Impulse 2, uses certain words now-and-then that one wouldn't hear on an American news broadcast - nothing offensive, nothing profane, just surprising. But he does it well. Here, if it were to become common practice to use those words, it would not be so artful. All in all, the status quo is probably for the better.
Also: The new forum software was quite a shock to me last evening. By far the worst feature was the default "view by vote". No continuity in a thread is maddening. But once I changed my preference, it stayed set...and sanity returned.
Second noted feature was my red-faced angry avatar. Maybe I'll leave it for awhile. It's growing on me.
Words have meanings. A single word can have many meanings. The meanings depend on context.
Stupid mechanical replacement of a word for a donkey with three asterisks is just a joke that even the youngest reader can see through.
Don't get me started on the scourge that is "political correctness". It's amazing that peoples brains don't explode under the pressure of all the things they are not allowed to say.
Sorry, what was the topic again?
My message has raised concerns from Parallax. My criticism is being
seen as an attack on the company and not as constructive, so I'm
publically retracting the entire message in addition to all of my recent
posts. I may also consider resigning from the forums completely, but
I'm not a fan of "heat of the moment decisions", so I'll leave things
alone for now.
Is it possible to TURN OFF the stupid voting thing?
I had to seriously dig through a legitimate thread to find something that someone replied (Chip Gracey) because it had been upvoted, (why wouldn't it?) it was out of sequence.
No, I'm sorry, this ISN'T ACCEPTABLE. There is nothing wrong with making a change. There is nothing wrong with leaving vBulletin, but the method by which it has been done is quite unParallax. The fact that the decision has been make to press forward with this is also unParallax. Us grey-haired guys who have been here quite a while have gotten used to the idea of "Quality" being directly associated with "Parallax". I'm sorry if we are a little shocked when this changed and are speaking up.
That L.C.K. video about everything "being wonderful" doesn't apply to poor workmanship. This meal needed more time to cook and quite honestly, having the chef standing at my table telling me how wonderful my meal is doesn't change what was brought to the table.
Yes please. Bin the stupid voting thing.
It has no useful purpose.
It has confused everybody who finds they are reading thread posts in random time order.
It is just brain damaged.
First post by me on this new forum. I have read through all the threads. Not ready yet to make any judgment either way. But I am impressed by the way people can be quoted as saying something, and then later on in the thread, they actually say it. I need to watch some more episodes of 'Doctor Who' and brush up on my understanding of time travel. Monty Python used to put the credits in the middle of the show/book rather than at the beginning, and it always kind of made sense to me. If anyone needs me, I'll be in my coffin, avoiding any sunlight :)Dr_Acula
But I am impressed by the way people can be quoted as saying something, and then later on in the thread, they actually say it. I need to watch some more episodes of 'Doctor Who' and brush up on my understanding of time travel.
When that starts to bore you, you can go to the top of the page 1, first reply, where you find
something like this
43 Comments sorted by Date Added
[/list]and flip from the (bizarre) default of Vote-sorted, to the more sane, but less bemusing Date Sorted.
I vote to return to the old forum software before we lose newly posted technical content.
I will not be posting anything technical until either the new forum software is fixed or reverts to the old software.
Unfortunately, my observation is that this change was not thought through and lacks a professional approach, particularly in light of the previous failed attempt. Surely the previous attempt showed the requirement to try a beta forum test. At least the main criticisms would have been seen immediately on any beta test. The vote-sorted fiasco just shows how inadequately this change is.
My comments on what's broken will be in a separate thread as requested.
On the first page of a posting at the top there is a place where you can click to sort by vote or date posted. Just click the date posted thing. Also, it seems to be remembering this choice for me.
OK everyone. Take a deep breath, count to ten and then let it out. Now, you feel better, right? You see, change is inevitable. Whether we like it or not, the powers to be have decided we are stuck with it. So, if you have some cheese in the fridge, grab it and bite off a chunk and serve it up with that whine!!!! It's not that bad and I think we all can agree that we have real work to do!!
I suppose one can try to be above it all and dismissive of those whose message includes extreme emotion and a lack of common courtesy.
But the net result is to live in a comfortable bubble where one is always shooting the messenger regardless of the message content's validity.
Yes, some Forum participants do enjoy being off-the-cuff, shooting-from-the-hip, and wandering beyond forum guidelines. Others try to conform and be self-moderating, but are led astray by the 'bad boys'. And moderators seem to be an unpaid position in some cases without much incentive to achieve a consistent policy.
But all that is the nature of the beast and the ability to communicate instantly before doubts and regrets set in.
In the old days of snail mail, people often mentioned that if one felt compelled to say something negative in writing, they should at least sleep on it for a night before actually mailing the letter.
Personally, I try to be self-moderating as much as possible and strongly support everyone do so. But we all come at the problem with a different mindset.
Just click on 'Date Added' as described, and the sorting will be by date forever after.
I'm not sure this works in all cases (I still see out-of-order threads, and it's not always predictable) but for non-members it never works. The selection doesn't stick, and going even from page 1 to page 2 of a thread reverts back to order by votes. So, guests to the forum get to be confused by it all.
The request should still stand: either have the forum default to order by last post, or remove the voting feature altogether. "Voting" on a technical forum is rather silly anyway.
I rarely post complaints. In fact, this might be my first ever on these forums and I have been around for a while. I have survived a couple forum migrations with Parallax. This is by far the worst. I tried to get used to it for a few days. However, there are many bugs and the new forum is much more difficult to use. That isn't whining by a grey haired baby, that is simply my take on it. Purty, purty please, do something.
Jonathan
LOL, why bother trying to escape the autoquute nightmare?
Cluso, apparently Parallax and Roy will be happy to wave good-bye to you and anyone else. At least thats how I read Courtney and Roy's comments.
If this were to really start to happen, I quite have to wonder whos going to be left to do all of the P2 validation Parallax is expecting from the peanut gallery...
I will not be posting anything technical until either the new forum software is fixed or reverts to the old software.
The request should still stand: either have the forum default to order by last post, or remove the voting feature altogether. "Voting" on a technical forum is rather silly anyway.
Certainly, the moronic sort by vote needs to go into the bin, and quickly.Surely doing that is trivial ?
There is room for a 'solved' style marker, but that does not affect sorting.
There are some sites that use post voting in clever ways. Stackexchange is one of them. But that site is unique, and so is the voting. They allow one question for the thread. Users then chime in with their responses, which are then "voted on" by others. The answers with the most favorable responses are placed on top.
That system makes sense for non-threaded discussion. But this forum, like most technical forums, relies heavily on the interchange -- the back and forth debate -- between participants. It's impossible, not to mention unwise, to try to classify such posts by popularity. The whole idea of these exchanges is the dialogue itself, which includes the sequence. Dr. Acula noted that was amazed people were quoted before they said the thing they were quoted for!
Some PHP coding could easily remove the Vote elements from the page, and there must be a way to set the default order. If nothing else, jam that value into the DB for every page.
Quite so Gordon.
Stackexchange, stackoverflow, slashdot and others are not forums. The use cases are different.
Of course sometimes a question is asked here, a few suggestions are given and that it. But often threads ramble on with discussion of some product or other or descriptions of a projects progress and so on.
Voting on posts and out of order display is insane here and should go.
Mind you. I like the idea of people quoting me before I say the thing, provided it's clever or witty, then I'd know what to say and get all the credit for it
Reddit is pretty close to a forum, and it does the ordered by voting thing. Key difference being that replies create a tree structure based on what you reply to. I kind of like that model.
The voting order here doesn't work because it's missing the reply tree structure. Of course, it was easy enough to click the sort by date added option once and have it just work ( at least for me so far).
Comments
"...whining gray haired babies..."
Yep, that's me. You make it sound so negative. I believe users should complain. Complaining gets things done. The squeaky wheel gets the oil and all that. Would you rather that people just leave? Could get very lonesome around here. We have confidence this damage will be fixed and the patience to hang on for that. In the mean time pointing out the issues is constructive criticism. "If you hate me a little more now..."
We love you Roy. Despite your little tantrum there.
"Some of the complaints are because people just haven't done enough exploration..."
For sure.
But don't put the blame on the customers here.
When you get into a car where the steering wheel is on the other side. The gear selector works backwards. You have to pull on the brake peddle to stop. Oh and you have to drive on the other side of the road whilst looking out of the side window. I think you might complain.
The forum is a user interface to Parallax. Like that gear stick. Break it at your peril.
It's fine congratulating the team on fixes after the fact, but the forum shouldn't have been made public before it was ready. Would you reward Parallax for rushing out a slipshod product, just because they addressed its problems afterward?
The damage has been done by the lack of openness and communication. This has been poorly managed. The "aw, gee, they'll fix it eventually" attitude ignores the real slap in the face that comes from a show of disloyalty toward customers. I don't see any evidence of a beta test among select users, or private input during a soft launch from respected moderators like Phil. To me, this shows a disregard for the customers who actually use this product. And it IS a product.
No, I don't think you would defend them if they turned out a piece of junk. So why do you do it here? It's not like they didn't have the opportunity and volunteers to make it right first time around.
Chris,You missed several dozen (if not hundreds) more instances of the words '*****' and '******' on these forums when you filtered my post of just those two words. They were used in very similar meaning and context. Please be consistent and remove all instances of those words if they are indeed deemed bad and should be removed. You can find many of them with simple searches (even with the forums limited search ability).I am totally fine having those words censored in my post if they are deemed bad for the forums, but I believe it's only fair that they be removed from all postings here if that is the case. Thanks, Roy
Chris,You missed several dozen (if not hundreds) more instances of the words '*****' and '******' on these forums when you filtered my post of just those two words. They were used in very similar meaning and context. Please be consistent and remove all instances of those words if they are indeed deemed bad and should be removed. You can find many of them with simple searches (even with the forums limited search ability).I am totally fine having those words censored in my post if they are deemed bad for the forums, but I believe it's only fair that they be removed from all postings here if that is the case. Thanks, Roy
This is just a case of me not having read every message on these forums or they all would have been censored. I try to rely on common sense that the forum rules are read and understood. But perhaps I need to do a search and try to find these other posts.
You're welcome to send me a list of threads with such words and I will moderate them all equally.
P.S. - You also posted these words again in an attempt to make your point, exacerbating the problem.
I love the paradox here. Some words seem to be banned. However I'm sure they are not spelled out in any forum rules we can read on account of being banned.
Is there anyway you can PM me the blacklisted words for reference?
Perhaps I can add some more for the readers on the east side of the pond.
Also: The new forum software was quite a shock to me last evening. By far the worst feature was the default "view by vote". No continuity in a thread is maddening. But once I changed my preference, it stayed set...and sanity returned.
Second noted feature was my red-faced angry avatar. Maybe I'll leave it for awhile. It's growing on me.
Stupid mechanical replacement of a word for a donkey with three asterisks is just a joke that even the youngest reader can see through.
Don't get me started on the scourge that is "political correctness". It's amazing that peoples brains don't explode under the pressure of all the things they are not allowed to say.
Sorry, what was the topic again?
My message has raised concerns from Parallax. My criticism is being
seen as an attack on the company and not as constructive, so I'm
publically retracting the entire message in addition to all of my recent
posts. I may also consider resigning from the forums completely, but
I'm not a fan of "heat of the moment decisions", so I'll leave things
alone for now.
Is it possible to TURN OFF the stupid voting thing?
I had to seriously dig through a legitimate thread to find something that someone replied (Chip Gracey) because it had been upvoted, (why wouldn't it?) it was out of sequence.
No, I'm sorry, this ISN'T ACCEPTABLE. There is nothing wrong with making a change. There is nothing wrong with leaving vBulletin, but the method by which it has been done is quite unParallax. The fact that the decision has been make to press forward with this is also unParallax. Us grey-haired guys who have been here quite a while have gotten used to the idea of "Quality" being directly associated with "Parallax". I'm sorry if we are a little shocked when this changed and are speaking up.
That L.C.K. video about everything "being wonderful" doesn't apply to poor workmanship. This meal needed more time to cook and quite honestly, having the chef standing at my table telling me how wonderful my meal is doesn't change what was brought to the table.
It has no useful purpose.
It has confused everybody who finds they are reading thread posts in random time order.
It is just brain damaged.
When that starts to bore you, you can go to the top of the page 1, first reply, where you find
something like this
43 Comments sorted by Date Added
[/list]and flip from the (bizarre) default of Vote-sorted, to the more sane, but less bemusing Date Sorted.
I will not be posting anything technical until either the new forum software is fixed or reverts to the old software.
Unfortunately, my observation is that this change was not thought through and lacks a professional approach, particularly in light of the previous failed attempt. Surely the previous attempt showed the requirement to try a beta forum test. At least the main criticisms would have been seen immediately on any beta test. The vote-sorted fiasco just shows how inadequately this change is.
My comments on what's broken will be in a separate thread as requested.
But the net result is to live in a comfortable bubble where one is always shooting the messenger regardless of the message content's validity.
Yes, some Forum participants do enjoy being off-the-cuff, shooting-from-the-hip, and wandering beyond forum guidelines. Others try to conform and be self-moderating, but are led astray by the 'bad boys'. And moderators seem to be an unpaid position in some cases without much incentive to achieve a consistent policy.
But all that is the nature of the beast and the ability to communicate instantly before doubts and regrets set in.
In the old days of snail mail, people often mentioned that if one felt compelled to say something negative in writing, they should at least sleep on it for a night before actually mailing the letter.
Personally, I try to be self-moderating as much as possible and strongly support everyone do so. But we all come at the problem with a different mindset.
I'm not sure this works in all cases (I still see out-of-order threads, and it's not always predictable) but for non-members it never works. The selection doesn't stick, and going even from page 1 to page 2 of a thread reverts back to order by votes. So, guests to the forum get to be confused by it all.
The request should still stand: either have the forum default to order by last post, or remove the voting feature altogether. "Voting" on a technical forum is rather silly anyway.
Jonathan
LOL, why bother trying to escape the autoquute nightmare?
Cluso, apparently Parallax and Roy will be happy to wave good-bye to you and anyone else. At least thats how I read Courtney and Roy's comments.
If this were to really start to happen, I quite have to wonder whos going to be left to do all of the P2 validation Parallax is expecting from the peanut gallery...
I will not be posting anything technical until either the new forum software is fixed or reverts to the old software.
Certainly, the moronic sort by vote needs to go into the bin, and quickly.Surely doing that is trivial ?
There is room for a 'solved' style marker, but that does not affect sorting.
That system makes sense for non-threaded discussion. But this forum, like most technical forums, relies heavily on the interchange -- the back and forth debate -- between participants. It's impossible, not to mention unwise, to try to classify such posts by popularity. The whole idea of these exchanges is the dialogue itself, which includes the sequence. Dr. Acula noted that was amazed people were quoted before they said the thing they were quoted for!
Some PHP coding could easily remove the Vote elements from the page, and there must be a way to set the default order. If nothing else, jam that value into the DB for every page.
Stackexchange, stackoverflow, slashdot and others are not forums. The use cases are different.
Of course sometimes a question is asked here, a few suggestions are given and that it. But often threads ramble on with discussion of some product or other or descriptions of a projects progress and so on.
Voting on posts and out of order display is insane here and should go.
Mind you. I like the idea of people quoting me before I say the thing, provided it's clever or witty, then I'd know what to say and get all the credit for it
The voting order here doesn't work because it's missing the reply tree structure. Of course, it was easy enough to click the sort by date added option once and have it just work ( at least for me so far).