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Electric cars in Norway — Parallax Forums

Electric cars in Norway

kwinnkwinn Posts: 8,697
edited 2015-06-16 22:58 in General Discussion
Interesting article on how Norway has encouraged the use of electric cars. https://cleantechnica.com/2015/06/05/1-electric-car-city-is-video/

I was there a few years ago visiting family, and have to say that Oslo was one of the cleanest and most beautiful cities I have ever been to. Looking forward to returning and driving up the new coastal highway in the next year or two.

Comments

  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2015-06-07 10:40
    Oslo is a great place.

    Only problem is you have to sell you children to be able to afford buy a beer there. And it's tricky stepping over all the alchos lying in the street in the morning on the way to the office. They don't drink the over taxed beer but get by on the local black market moonshine.

    What I never understood is how Norway is one of the wealthiest counties in Europe, thanks to the North Sea oil, but their people have such huge taxes. Where does the money go?
  • TorTor Posts: 2,010
    edited 2015-06-08 01:40
    Oil is only a part of it (the economy). Norway isn't very different from Sweden when it comes to economy and how the money is used. And Sweden doesn't produce oil. One (possibly surprising to some) factor for both countries is that the high percentage of women working gives a huge boost to the economy. Made possible by, among other things, the great support for maternity leave, or parental leave actually - the leave (in Norway) is 52 weeks and can (and to some extent must) be shared between the parents. This costs money of course. Paid for by taxes. And paid back more than that by the increased total work force.

    Oil: Most of the direct income from oil in Norway goes directly into a fund which is there to support future pensions. But of course the industry injects money in other ways by creating jobs and companies.

    As for the tax level - it's really not a problem. I for one am extremely happy about the health system which stepped in when I got my one, serious issue. Handled perfectly. At no extra cost to me. I've been paying high taxes all my life, but knowing that the money is used to safeguard family, friends, and fellow citizens. It's never been a problem, it's not like it kills my economy. The only insurances I have to pay are for my car and my house.

    -Tor
  • evanhevanh Posts: 15,920
    edited 2015-06-08 02:33
    I morn the loss of our taxes. The shops are still a rip-off but are now full of jerks selling bull. Phone, power and petrol are at record highs. The public heath system only serves a small fraction of the need now. Education hasn't suffered as badly, probably because it's still compulsory education, but budgets are bare bone and there is clear wealth separation now.

    And no shortage of addicts on the streets!
  • GadgetmanGadgetman Posts: 2,436
    edited 2015-06-08 09:05
    Our taxes also oges to education(Not enough, though...) so even an university level education is within reach of most.(What stops most is the cost of books and living expenses near universities)

    A lot of people bought electric vehicles because of TOLL-roads. Then they can have their home in a 'low cost' area and still afford to commute every day.
    I know of two such areas in the county where I live. Both toll roads are undersea tunnels, replacing ferries, crossing deep fjords. The first has turned into a 'high income' living area now, and most of the EVs disappeared within 2 years of the TOLL-booth disappearing. (That was mostly Th!nk and Kewet Buddy, though)
    Oslo... The NPRA(Think DMV, roadplanning, and all that) have now partially closed down some of the tunnels around Oslo, and also disallowed EVs with only the driver from using the'Public Transport' lanes in the affected area. This is to do a lot of maintenance and upgrades to comply with yet another EU directive. This work won't be finished before 2019... My guess is that the EV sales will dip a bit.
    The weird thing is that the traffic flows better than ever. It's assumed a lot of people have decided to try out whatever work-at-home system the office has. Bus driver reports that some routes can be done in a third of the normal time...

    Of course, EVs, Plug-in hybrids, LNG, or even Hydrogen-powered cars(Google for HyNor) isn't the solution. In reality personal transportation of that size is the problem. But that's another discussion entirely.
  • ErlendErlend Posts: 612
    edited 2015-06-08 11:19
    The 'father of all environmentalists' lives in this country. He's a pal of Elon of course. Many years ago he pioneered the indtroduction of electric cars into the country: REPEAT he daily drove it through the toll station without paying, got fined, fined, fined, refused to pay, car got confiscated, then auctioned, everyone sabotaged the acution, he bought back the car for 1kr ( about a dime) UNTIL toll on electric cars got exempted. Fun story I think.

    @kwinn
    Make sure to tell when you are here on a tour - you can borrow my cabin where your impulse relays are installed : )

    Erlend
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2015-06-08 12:00
    I don't get the toll idea. If hundreds of millions are spent on building a tunnel or bridge or other short cut that make life more efficient, how does it mater if you use it with an old fashioned car, an electric car, or horse and cart?

    I'm all for taxes and the social good, like a decent health service and so on. Sadly in the modern world of the global economy there is a relentless pressure to do away with national identity, society or community spirit, and privatize everything and promote the individualism , "profit is king" and "greed is good" ideology.

    Norway seems to be hanging on against this pressure. It's a lost cause in most of the civilized world.
  • tonyp12tonyp12 Posts: 1,951
    edited 2015-06-08 13:13
    Why is it every tourists are shocked by the cost of a beer and based on that the cost of living and living standards most be terrible?
    The price include a 20% tip as bartenders get paid a living wage, alcohol sales have a high sin-tax as with to much alcohol it comes sickness that gets treated for free.
    And touristy areas probably charge more than the places locals go.

    All cities does have a A-Team (A as in Alcoholics) that sit around the parks, pretty harmless people as they don't mug people.
  • kwinnkwinn Posts: 8,697
    edited 2015-06-08 19:40
    Erlend wrote: »
    The 'father of all environmentalists' lives in this country. He's a pal of Elon of course. Many years ago he pioneered the indtroduction of electric cars into the country: REPEAT he daily drove it through the toll station without paying, got fined, fined, fined, refused to pay, car got confiscated, then auctioned, everyone sabotaged the acution, he bought back the car for 1kr ( about a dime) UNTIL toll on electric cars got exempted. Fun story I think.

    @kwinn
    Make sure to tell when you are here on a tour - you can borrow my cabin where your impulse relays are installed : )

    Erlend

    Definitely will let you know well ahead of time so we can meet.
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2015-06-08 20:07
    While Norway might be trying to embrace electric cars, I was a bit surprised to find out that both Texas and Arizona refuse to allow electric cars to be sold direct retail in state. Texas seems to have 1500 Teslas that were brought elsewhere and then registered in Texas.

    http://my.teslamotors.com/it_CH/forum/forums/tesla-sales-banned-arizona-texas-new-jersey

    It is hard for me to grasp the politics of this absurdity.

    Meanwhile, in Taiwan...
    a company has anounced their desire to become the "Two wheel Tesla" to the world and plans to make electric motor scooters successful in Taiwan. Enter the Gogoro, the world's smartscooter.

    http://www.trustedreviews.com/gogoro-smartscooter-review

    Frankly, I am skeptical. I still drive a 125cc Yamaha BWS and don't feel comfortable shifting over to electric. About the only reason I might shift to a two-wheeled electric is to switch to a bicycle and avoid parking tickets that scooters are getting these days. Also, no insurance is required for an electric bicycle, while an electric scooter does require such.

    When I was 12, I had a girl friend whose day owned one of the first electric cars ever, a turn of the century French vehicle. He also had a Stanley Steamer and a steam motorcycle. I can't help but feel that the world really got it right with internal combusion for transportation, and that we will shift over to natural gas long before the electric vehicle is widely accepted.
  • TorTor Posts: 2,010
    edited 2015-06-09 00:19
    Heater. wrote: »
    I don't get the toll idea. If hundreds of millions are spent on building a tunnel or bridge or other short cut that make life more efficient, how does it mater if you use it with an old fashioned car, an electric car, or horse and cart?
    The toll is there simply to pay for the tunnel or bridge. Roads are generally (although not always) paid for from taxes, but bridges and tunnels (below-sea tunnels mostly, 'normal' short tunnels aren't part of this) are usually paid for by loans to be paid back by toll from future users. When it's fully paid for the toll stops (at least that's how it used to be for most of my life - I've been through rounds of paying for bridges and tunnels for some years until the building costs had been recovered, after that it became free).
    But electric cars are exempted from paying the toll, simply to encourage more people to buy electric cars. I noticed an earlier post talked about clean air in Oslo, but Oslo actually has a sometimes big air pollution problem (to the extent that it may become illegal to drive diesel cars there on some days).
    There are other freebees around for electric cars, free parking for example.

    -Tor
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2015-06-10 00:59
    Toll roads, bridges, and tunnels are certain a curious thing.

    While the US government broke a big promise to leave Social Security funds intact and borrowed from them to build the US interstate highway system, we still have some states with interstate toll roads as well - like the New Jersey Turnpike.

    And the Golden Gate Bridge supposedly imposed a temporary toll to pay for the bridge, but has never been without toll.. even though the bridge has long been paid for. They claim they need the money for maintenance.

    So I strongly suspect that it all comes down to 'whatever the traffic will bear'. Free to electric cars and other such special rates.. such as free commuter lanes for 3 or more people in a car are just another layer of rules. What these things really cost and when they are really paid for are difficult to determine. I suppose we just have to listen to authorities say, 'Trust me.'

    But I strongly suspect once you get a cash flow started, an administration will find a way to keep it going and purposes to spend all that is gotten.
  • TorTor Posts: 2,010
    edited 2015-06-10 01:26
    At least in the area where I live all the toll-bridges became toll-free when the costs had been recovered. One nearby below-sea tunnel as well. Another one is still being paid for. The construction costs, the income from tolls, and the budgets were all in the open so the whole process was visible. Some bridges are paid for faster than originally planned due to higher than expected traffic, this shortens the toll period.

    When that's been said, in the last years this process has been muddled in Norway because 'companies' (I use that word in a very liberal sense when it comes to those leeches..) have been established to collect the toll on behalf of the local or national governments or whoever. Turns out (of course!) that they siphon so much money to themselves for administering collecting the toll that it never stops..

    And then you of course have those politicians who now talk about using tolls from one bridge to pay for something else. As things usually go, you start out good and it goes downhill from there. But we have had an extremely fair and efficient system for this in Norway until relatively recently. The future may not be as good, unless someone cuts off the weeds and go back to the way it was.

    -Tor
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2015-06-10 20:14
    Well, Norwegians may be one of the few nations on the planet that rationally manages these things. I am not quite sure why that is, but I admire Scandinavian nations for being more enlightened than most. For instance, the Finns have created one of the best nuclear waste management programs in the world, most nations have next to nothing in place.

    Overall, humankind is still struggling with any agenda that is unselfish and requires long-term commitment.
  • TorTor Posts: 2,010
    edited 2015-06-11 00:14
    Yes, well, but Finns are not Scandinavians - although they're Nordic. :) I suspect it's all about having a reasonably developed society within a country that is small enough to have sufficient transparency. But as I mentioned there are always those that wish to muddle the waters for their own gain (re. delegating toll collection to toll-collecting companies which purpose is to live off it - there simply weren't any in the past and that worked great).

    -Tor
  • GadgetmanGadgetman Posts: 2,436
    edited 2015-06-11 00:45
    As for nuclear...
    Did you know that Norway was among the first countries to bring a reactor online? already in 1951...
    Only for research, though, never for power-generating purposes.
    The Halden ractor(1958, 25MW) is a bit controversial as it has been used for illegal research, that is, research not approved by our government, such as aiding Brazil's nuclear sub program.

    At the moment, I believe the two working reactors are being kept running because that's cheaper than decomissioning them...
    Hopefully, they can get started on a Thorium reactor before that happens.
  • John A. ZoidbergJohn A. Zoidberg Posts: 514
    edited 2015-06-16 08:06
    It's nice to have Electric Vehicles in a nation. They are pretty fun and friendly!

    Here in my very own campus we were involved in converting an internal combustion vehicle to an electric. Took 6 months, and now it's running circles around the campus!

    I had built the monitoring system too, but not yet installed in it. It is using an FTDI FT800 screen with a dsPIC33F microcontroller, and with CAN bus interface. :)
  • evanhevanh Posts: 15,920
    edited 2015-06-16 15:43
    ... with CAN bus interface. :)

    How new's the car? What are you talking to? Original devices presumably, how much of the original computers were removed? Or is it the other way round, you are simulating devices to keep the computer happy?
  • John A. ZoidbergJohn A. Zoidberg Posts: 514
    edited 2015-06-16 19:06
    evanh wrote: »
    How new's the car? What are you talking to? Original devices presumably, how much of the original computers were removed? Or is it the other way round, you are simulating devices to keep the computer happy?


    The car is an 11-year old locally made sedan, and the electric motor + Curtis controller is bought from a retailer in USA as a conversion kit.

    There is a CAN bus on that controller which outputs the volt, current, RPM and temperature. The microcontroller gets the data through the CAN bus transceiver, and show the details on the screen. The monitoring system also obtains the data from the controller every second and log it into a CSV file to be analysed later.
  • evanhevanh Posts: 15,920
    edited 2015-06-16 21:47
    "Locally made sedan" meaning it was still a road legal car originally I presume but there wasn't any original CAN comms to interface with and the FT800 driven display is now the vehicle dash display, replacing what was previously there?

    It would be a big job to substitute a modern car computer I suspect.
  • John A. ZoidbergJohn A. Zoidberg Posts: 514
    edited 2015-06-16 22:58
    evanh wrote: »
    "Locally made sedan" meaning it was still a road legal car originally I presume but there wasn't any original CAN comms to interface with and the FT800 driven display is now the vehicle dash display, replacing what was previously there?

    It would be a big job to substitute a modern car computer I suspect.

    The sedan has not much electronics inside - only electronic it has is the radio. The sedan was a cheap one - only cost $2500. The car didn't have any dashboards or whatsoever as it's been purchased by another person since 2001. My supervisor acquired it from another used car store.

    We ripped out the gas tank and the whole Internal Combustion Engine in a workshop. Then we placed the electric motor (144V), with correct coupling, and then adding the motor controller (Curtis). The motor controller has a CAN bus interface which can be connected to other devices.

    And yeah - the batteries are Trojan's SLA (Seal Lead Acid), 12V each, stacked to 144V. We have 12 of them all together.

    I designed the monitoring system using the screen and the stuff I bought from the eBay and the board is from MikroElekotronika. :)
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