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$2.50 gadget claims to extend battery life by 8x — Parallax Forums

$2.50 gadget claims to extend battery life by 8x

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  • kwinnkwinn Posts: 8,697
    edited 2015-06-03 07:57
    Sounds feasible if that info about 80% of the capacity remaining when the voltage drops is true. I'm still skeptical but would certainly try one out to verify (or not) the claims.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2015-06-03 08:22
    The idea of getting the required voltage for a longer time with a boost converter sounds quite reasonable and is not new.

    If that translates to an 8 times battery life is another question and is probably application dependent. It's an experiment we can all do by getting a 2 dollar boost converter from ebay and trying it in our applications.

    The question might be how come such boost converters are not built into battery powered devices, thus making this "magic battery sleeve" redundant?
  • BeanBean Posts: 8,129
    edited 2015-06-03 09:00
    It is statements like this that show they don't know what they are talking about.

    “The time it takes for the battery voltage to drop by 0.1V is longer at lower voltages versus at higher voltages. That means that if a constant current was drawn from the battery, it would take the battery a lot longer to discharge from 1.2V to 1.1V than it would from 1.5V to 1.4V. This means that the extent to which the battery life is increased could be even higher.”

    The device would NOT draw a constant current, it would draw constant POWER, which means MORE current as the voltage goes down.

    IMO the whole article is a bunch of non-sense.

    Bean
  • Duane DegnDuane Degn Posts: 10,588
    edited 2015-06-03 09:01
    It's been over 20 years since I've worn a heart monitor through the day to catch irregular rhythms but back when I'd have to do this every so often I was told by one of the technician that he thought he'd take the used batteries from the device home to use in his Walkman. He figured the batteries wouldn't last long but he thought there might be some juice left in the batteries after being used in the heart monitor. He told me the batteries were completely dead. His Walkman acted as if there weren't any batteries in it when he tried the used cells.

    The heart monitor had this boost technology which caused the batteries to drain lower than they would in normal devices.

    These new gadgets could allow us to use this boost technology (which the article acknowledges isn't new) in our various battery powered devices. I hope these boost sleeves work as claimed.

    Edit: Based on the video on EEVblog (there's a link to this video later in this thread) I no longer have much hope this will be a useful device. I'm inclined to think the device is being marketed in a misleading manner.
  • GordonMcCombGordonMcComb Posts: 3,366
    edited 2015-06-03 09:11
    But it's not just voltage but current, and that falls with depletion as well (on edit: oops, looks like Bean beat me to it). The 800% claim may be accurate for some narrow applications, but likely not for anything that is demanding of current.

    Heater is correct that many devices already have boosts in them -- 2 X 1.5V cells, yet the device inside works on 3.3V. It's only if the device's boost shuts off below a certain voltage threshold, which some do for product liability (battery leakage, etc.) reasons.
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2015-06-03 09:32
    As a battery discharges, its internal resistance rises. That makes it much harder to extract meaningful energy from a dying battery -- rather like sucking through an increasingly narrowing straw. IMO, "8x" doesn't pass the smell test.

    -Phil
  • piguy101piguy101 Posts: 248
    edited 2015-06-03 16:46
    In addition, the article acts like 1.4 V is a dead battery when many devices will already use the battery down to 1.2 or lower.
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,256
    edited 2015-06-03 17:12
    piguy101 wrote: »
    In addition, the article acts like 1.4 V is a dead battery when many devices will already use the battery down to 1.2 or lower.

    A lot of new digital cameras (for those who a cell phone image isn't good enough) shut down pretty quickly on alkaline, and the manufacturers are quick to recommend lithium batteries. For products like that with a lot of other electronics inside, it does seem silly that a booster like this is not built-in.

    I despise alkaline cells. I agree that some improvement from this device is probable, but not 8X. A solid 2X would be nice.
  • W9GFOW9GFO Posts: 4,010
    edited 2015-06-03 18:29
    They shut the door on an investor but they are going to do an indiegogo campaign? Combine that with their wishful thinking math examples and this thing becomes quite unappealing to me.

    It's a good idea, but they are waaaaay overselling it - to the point of being dishonest.
  • wasswass Posts: 151
    edited 2015-06-03 20:28
    Curiously 8x is the same that Energizer claims for their lithium AA cells vs alkaline. Possibly in very high drain applications it might be close to that but for most things lithium cells last only slightly longer. However they are much lighter and work great at low temperatures, so they are quite useful for some things other than digital cameras.

    Despite their 8x claims I find the 0.1mm thickness of this quite amazing. I'd definitely get some to try.
  • GordonMcCombGordonMcComb Posts: 3,366
    edited 2015-06-03 21:35
    Over-discharging an alkaline battery is a good way to make it leak. It will be interesting to see how they handle the customer inquiries about that. Maybe each pair of this gizmo should come with a small packet of baking soda.
  • GadgetmanGadgetman Posts: 2,436
    edited 2015-06-03 23:47
    I have several devices where even that extra 0.1mm is too much. Even the AAs with that bl**dy powerstrip along the side won't fit.
    You won't get a warning about batteries running out of power, the unit just dies...
    And how much power does it use by itself?
    My PDAs generally have a draw of 1 - 5mAh while quiescent to up to 150mAh when working hard. I expect a PDA I leave on the desk with a fresh pair of AAs to still be good two weeks later.
    Remotes tend to draw even less...
  • tonyp12tonyp12 Posts: 1,951
    edited 2015-06-04 07:07
    Most devices that could use this already have a boost ldo built-in, like remotes, mp3 players, cameras etc
    So you will not see any benefit on those devices, actually probably a 5% drop instead.
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2015-06-04 12:39
    Eight times what? You really have to divide batteries in to Primary cells (never to be recharged) and Secondard cells (rechargible) before you go on to make any claims about getting more battery life.

    Many of the newer rechargible cells suffer serious damage from a discharge below certain limits. And even lead acid gel cells seem to perform better in terms of useful life when they are kept near to the top end of their charge.

    In sum, batteries are all about electro-chemistry. You can't just attach an electronic gadget to squeeze more juice out of one unless the battery will only be used once and discarded. That seems to be the target for the Batteriser.
  • Dr_AculaDr_Acula Posts: 5,484
    edited 2015-06-04 20:12
    Looks bogus at first glance... but where is the catch?

    Ah, I think I can see it. Take a typical discharge curve for an AA alkaline eg http://madscientisthut.com/wordpress/daily-blog/make-a-joule-thief-battery-charger/attachment/aa-100ma/

    If the end point is set at, say, 1V, then it is pretty clear that there is hardly any energy left.

    But if you set the end point at 1.4V, well from that graph, yes, the battery is only roughly 1/8th discharged.

    But as others have said above, 1.4V is not a flat battery. It is a perfectly good battery that has a long way to go, and indeed, for devices that ought to be designed for both alkaline and rechargeable batteries, to cope with the lower voltage of rechargeables eg 1.2V, they need to be able to run at lower voltages.

    With modern switching regulator modules on ebay available for under $2 (step up and step down), these days you can have have a fixed regulated output from a wide range of inputs (3V to 30V) and so there really isn't any excuse for a device failing at 1.35 to 1.4V per cell.
  • GordonMcCombGordonMcComb Posts: 3,366
    edited 2015-06-05 07:34
    Dr_Acula wrote: »
    But if you set the end point at 1.4V, well from that graph, yes, the battery is only roughly 1/8th discharged.

    Batteries discharge current; the voltage is secondary. All these charts should be showing how much current is left. It's not just 1/8th. Only in feeble applications where just a trickle current is required (smoke alarms, remotes) would you get any benefit, and then it would be only marginal to what you get already. Plus, as I've said before, forcing an alkaline to over-discharge increases its chance of leaking. Now you have the mess and added resistance of that to take care of.
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2015-06-05 14:45
    The principle is sound. The traditional way to use a battery is to dispose of it when the voltage drops below a point that the load will not longer perform.

    So this device converts low voltage to a voltage high enough to avoid a performance failure. It takes the leftover electricity out of the battery down to a much lower voltage.

    I have one simple circuit around here that does this for a single AA and an LED. I just can't quite remember all the components. There was a torriod coil induction and something else, maybe a transistor or a blocking diode.
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,256
    edited 2015-06-05 15:24
    Plus, as I've said before, forcing an alkaline to over-discharge increases its chance of leaking.

    Cha-Ching! http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php/151851-Happy-Ending-to-Leaky-Duracells
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2015-06-05 15:52
    Loopy,
    I have one simple circuit around here that does this for a single AA and an LED. I just can't quite remember all the components. There was a torriod coil induction and something else, maybe a transistor or a blocking diode.
    Perhaps you are thinking of the the Joule Thief:
    http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a-Joule-Thief/

    Ancient technology.
  • evanhevanh Posts: 15,920
    edited 2015-06-05 17:00
    Why does anyone still use non-rechargeables? Low-self-discharge solved everything a decade ago.
  • GordonMcCombGordonMcComb Posts: 3,366
    edited 2015-06-05 18:13
    evanh wrote: »
    Why does anyone still use non-rechargeables? Low-self-discharge solved everything a decade ago.

    Because many devices, like cameras, don't like the 1.2V/cell of NiCd and NiMH rechargeables, and they did a poor job selling rechargeable alkalines. In fact, last time I tried to find some at Fry's they didn't have any.
  • evanhevanh Posts: 15,920
    edited 2015-06-05 19:04
    Rubbish! Power hungry cameras are a perfect example of where rechargeables are the only sane answer. I've never struck one that dislikes the modern NiMHs.

    PS: Throw away any old rechargeables from pre-LSD days. They were terrible too.
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,256
    edited 2015-06-05 20:05
    ... rechargeable alkalines. In fact, last time I tried to find some at Fry's they didn't have any.

    Make this bloke an offer he can't refuse on 800x AAA batteries and corner the market! http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-200-4-packs-AAA-Duracell-Rechargeable-Batteries-1000mAh-800-total-/321749372663
  • W9GFOW9GFO Posts: 4,010
    edited 2015-06-05 23:07
    Because many devices, like cameras, don't like the 1.2V/cell of NiCd and NiMH rechargeables, and they did a poor job selling rechargeable alkalines. In fact, last time I tried to find some at Fry's they didn't have any.
    Gotta disagree there. My last few digital cameras specifically recommended against alkaline as they don't last very long. I have been using Eneloops for years now and every single one still works well. Out of about 40 of them I have had zero failures. They get lost before they fail in my experience.
  • GordonMcCombGordonMcComb Posts: 3,366
    edited 2015-06-06 08:20
    Whoa there! I was explaining why people are still using non-rechargeables, not that I used them, especially in digital cameras, where all of mine use custom rechargeable lithium anyway.

    The failure of consumers still using non-rechargeable technology falls to the battery companies, and their lack of marketing and consumer education. They've had several chances of selling a 1.5V/cell rechargeable. They even could be building this boost technology into their premium 1.2V/cell NiMH. It would cost more, but then consumers wouldn't be frustrated not knowing which of their devices is tolerant of the lower voltage. You all are thinking the general consumer is as knowledgeable about batteries and electronics as we are, when in fact most people don't even realize there's something like a voltage difference between the common cells types.

    As for ALL digital cameras working blissfully with 1.2V cells: THAT is rubbish. This is about the most common complaint you see on the camera forums.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2015-06-06 08:59
    Dave Jones rips into the Bateriser with his "Baloney Detection Kit" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iEshd6izgk

    Verdict: Mostly useless. Possibly detrimental. Even possibly dangerous.
  • W9GFOW9GFO Posts: 4,010
    edited 2015-06-06 13:32
    Heater. wrote: »
    Dave Jones rips into the Bateriser with his "Baloney Detection Kit" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iEshd6izgk

    Verdict: Mostly useless. Possibly detrimental. Even possibly dangerous.

    Yep, seems he like the Eneloops too. :-)
  • evanhevanh Posts: 15,920
    edited 2015-06-06 16:52
    As for ALL digital cameras working blissfully with 1.2V cells: THAT is rubbish. This is about the most common complaint you see on the camera forums.

    It did come across as your personal opinion of rechargeables.

    There is of course a [silly unneeded] setting in the cameras to set the type of cell being used. I guess some fail to set that and then complain. I'm confident all digital cameras than take AA cells will accept modern NiMH cells.

    I know what you mean though. I gave a small bunch of the new (at the time) LSD rechargeables to my brother and his family to use ... the next time I seen them I asked about the results and they said pretty much exactly that - none of them worked - I checked the cells and they were fully charged, I asked them to show me something that the cells didn't work with but I got no takers ... that was about five years ago, they gave the cells back to me I think. The following year I got jokes about buying useless chargers and batteries ... I don't even know if the cells were ever tried!

    They just don't seem to perceive any value in rechargeables.
  • GordonMcCombGordonMcComb Posts: 3,366
    edited 2015-06-07 07:49
    The crux of the problem will always come down to the $$$ battery companies make on disposable batteries. It's a huge industry, raking in billions every year. There's not even a huge incentive to work around the (real and perceived) issues of cell voltage, which they could do -- this guy's 8X battery extender is easily encased inside any battery from the get-go, and boosts makes sense for rechargeables. People buy a set of NiMH cells, are disappointed in their performance for some reason, and go back to disposables. It's all green to the battery companies.
  • tonyp12tonyp12 Posts: 1,951
    edited 2015-06-07 09:47
    >extender is easily encased inside any battery from the get-go.
    Side effects as efficiency is 85% at best
    1: The device works just fine at 1.5-to-1.0V (per cell) they tap the battery directly without any quiescent current.
    2: Put the boost circuit inside the device, as it's the battery that needs to be cheap and not trying to save 30cents on the device (all reputable manufactures like Logitech etc does this)

    If you have a device made in the last 5years that does not do the above, write a review and shame them over the low battery life.
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