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Propellers cheaper than Basic Stamps, oh my — Parallax Forums

Propellers cheaper than Basic Stamps, oh my

localrogerlocalroger Posts: 3,451
edited 2015-03-11 10:06 in General Discussion
I don't go to Basic Stamp land very often any more but I have a little personal project where I might want to read a couple of thermistors and toggle a couple of Peltier modules accordingly, and I recalled that that's super easy to do in PBasic so I headed over to see WTF the BS1 is thirty bucks now? Making both the Prop Mini and Project Board USB cheaper at $25? This ain't natural, folks. Kids are going to be buying starter Prop boards and working their way up to PBasic.
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Comments

  • ercoerco Posts: 20,256
    edited 2015-03-05 15:23
    A curious business model indeed.

    Only Radio Shack's was stranger. :)
  • User NameUser Name Posts: 1,451
    edited 2015-03-06 20:27
    I remember a few years ago when a forum member was making and marketing a label printer (or something like that) which employed a BasicStamp. It stunned me to think of how much money was losing per sale because he was using a $30 or $50 board instead of a $7 or $1 chip. But I didn't want to say anything because that money was going to Parallax. :)
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2015-03-07 03:49
    Actually, the business model is really transparent and simple.

    A. The BasicStamp costs more to produce. (Actually made at Parallax in USA.)
    B. There is still a market for it, and Parallax is commited to legacy product support.
    C. Parallax desires to provide an incentive to migrate to the Propeller. Less costly certainly provides such an incentive.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2015-03-07 03:59
    Yes, historical artefacts often command high prices. :)
  • localrogerlocalroger Posts: 3,451
    edited 2015-03-07 05:18
    But how does a BS1 cost more to produce than a Prop Mini, which has a more expensive CPU and two voltage regulators, or a Project Board USB which has the FTDI hardware, USB socket, and all the prototyping holes?
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2015-03-07 07:06
    I thought price was all about what you can get your customers to pay for something rather than how much it cost you make it.
  • rod1963rod1963 Posts: 752
    edited 2015-03-07 07:24
    At $30 it certainly provides a strong incentive to use a Prop or any other contemporary solution.
  • localrogerlocalroger Posts: 3,451
    edited 2015-03-07 08:04
    Heater. wrote: »
    I thought price was all about what you can get your customers to pay for something rather than how much it cost you make it.

    Well there certainly are successful businesses which do this kind of aggressive pricing to market, but I had the general impression that Parallax was a bit nicer about things like that than, say, Pfizer.
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,256
    edited 2015-03-07 09:10
    Two words: Educational market.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2015-03-07 09:11
    I'm sure the Gracey's are jolly nice chaps. They can't be expected to run a charity though. They have staff to pay, a business to run. I don't blame them for setting the price at a point that maximizes their revenue.

    They need that money for the P2 project anyway :)
  • GordonMcCombGordonMcComb Posts: 3,366
    edited 2015-03-07 10:45
    I'm guessing, and will probably make a fool of myself (nothing new!), but I'd wager the BS1 is pretty slow moving these days. It costs more to keep slow moving items in inventory; ergo (or Erco), a higher price. It's never been a secret that volume pushes down prices.

    If one does a Parallax.com shopping cart list for Microcontrollers, and selects to view by popularity, the first BS1 product are a page and a half down in the list, next to a brownout detector component. They buy the BD as a final product, but have to inventory lots more parts to build and then manufacture a single BS1 board. Oh the cost, the cost!

    Also, the BASIC Stamps have traditionally had higher standard sales prices. Apart from sustaining a healthy distributor biz, I betcha heavy discounting goes on within the ed market. I dunna think all BS1s and 2s sell for the list price.
  • tomcrawfordtomcrawford Posts: 1,126
    edited 2015-03-07 14:14
    Slightly off topic, I've wondered why the Prop Board of Ed is so much more expensive than the Prop Activity Board. Granted it has better regulators, a microphone, and some additional LEDs, but $130 v. $50?
  • localrogerlocalroger Posts: 3,451
    edited 2015-03-07 15:05
    I don't think it's offtopic, tomc. In fact that disparity between the BoE and ActB plays right into Erco's and Gordon's comments about the education market and the discounts they probably expect. I suppose that is the answer to the implied question in my OP.
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,256
    edited 2015-03-07 15:33
    Slightly off topic, I've wondered why the Prop Board of Ed is so much more expensive than the Prop Activity Board....$130 v. $50?

    Two more words for you: Lifetime warranty.

    Smoke 'em if you got 'em!

    In a related story:

    Man I'm tired of this stripped-down forum with no buttons for bold, italic, pics or vids. It's not much fun manually type [/img] and [/video]. Any progress on the Forum Restoration Project, Parallax?
  • jmgjmg Posts: 15,173
    edited 2015-03-07 21:24
    I'm guessing, and will probably make a fool of myself (nothing new!), but I'd wager the BS1 is pretty slow moving these days..

    The Gen 0 BS1 maybe, but the web says this about the product line in general :

    ["customers have put [B]well over three million BASIC Stamp modules[/B] into use"]
    - now that is not what I'd call "pretty slow moving" - that sounds like a solid market base.
    Volumes may be down on what they were, but nothing suggests a 'go away' price is needed yet.

    In fact, I'm puzzled why Parallax do not seem to have plans for a BS3 ?
    - there are plenty of 5V 32Bit MCUs out there now, that would boost the Stamp nicely, and give a 100% retrofit which is both easy to support and safe to ramp up.
  • CuriousOneCuriousOne Posts: 931
    edited 2015-03-07 21:37
    Propeller/spin are hard to learn, silly syntax and bad code readability (in my opinion), so I won't go from BS to prop, even if it will cost $1 per chip. I've went Picbasic pro way - 99% BS code compatibility, much more faster, huge hardware support, interrupts etc. So, parallax lost certain part of market due to high prices for BS, I agree.

    P.S. There are BS2 clones from china, which are cheap enough (<$10) if not mistaken and are pin to pin compatible and also BS editor recognizes them as genuine parallax product. (There was thread about them, use search if interested).

    P.P.S So I wish guys@parallax will re-think their business model and start to offer something cheaper and BS compatible (at least, in software).
  • rod1963rod1963 Posts: 752
    edited 2015-03-07 22:18
    Parallax really hit it big with the Basic Stamps and according to Ken, still a serious source of revenue.

    As for the BS3 I think Mike Green explained it, they don't want to use other peoples MCU's anymore after the Ubicom fiasco. Hence their refusal to do a BS3. Which is sad because it left users with no upgrade path. Either use the Prop or go with another board like the Arduino. And we all know where most of the users went - the Arduino. And now with the PIC32 Micromite which can be had for the price of a Big Mac, they'd have some tough competition if they decided to do a BS3 today.
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,256
    edited 2015-03-07 23:01
    Don't get davejames and me started with all this talk of a BS3! :)

    The BS2 is no doubt a cash cow and steady revenue stream in the educational market, though dwindling. You can ride the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" philosophy for a while, but sooner or later technology catches up. I agree with jmg, what this country needs is a good $20 BS3 with hoards of new features but is fully backwards compatible. There are lots of dusty BoeBots on shelves and attics out there. If the owners heard news that for $20 they could upgrade and get a Bluetooth connection and an iPhone/Android app, I think that would generate some buzz and revenue.

    Better yet, pull a Windows 10 and jump straight to a BS4.
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2015-03-08 03:13
    There will always be a need for Basic. Since its beginnings (with Dartmouth Basic? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BASIC#History ), the whole concept was to introduce a minimal set of useful function words and a simple syntax --- just to get an idea of how powerful programing can be.

    It may seem that the Arduino is a 'cost competitive' alternative. But the whole programming language scheme is far more involved. There is simply the possibility to overwhelm the novice with too much information.

    Smallness both in language and architectural resources can be extremely useful in the beginning. As Leonardo DaVinci supposedly said, "Small spaces discipline the mind." Too many resources in the beginning can get very sloppy and distracting.
  • David BetzDavid Betz Posts: 14,516
    edited 2015-03-08 08:16
    rod1963 wrote: »
    As for the BS3 I think Mike Green explained it, they don't want to use other peoples MCU's anymore after the Ubicom fiasco. Hence their refusal to do a BS3.
    This doesn't make a lot of sense. They are *still* using other people's MCUs in the BS1 and the BS2 which are still active products. Apparently, they continue to trust Microchip to produce the required PIC chips. Maybe Ubicom was just a poor choice.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2015-03-08 09:02
    Microchip keeps their MCUs in production indefinitely. I don't think that they have ever ceased production of any of them.
  • CuriousOneCuriousOne Posts: 931
    edited 2015-03-08 09:22
    Yes but they ar providing notice that certain products are phasing out, and don't reccomend them for new projects. For example, they suggest to use PIC16F887 instead of PIC16F877
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2015-03-08 09:58
    Where do they say that the 16F877 is being discontinued?
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2015-03-08 10:12
    The 'other problem' with the BS2 has always been 'the tokenizer'. Since that feature is proprietary, Parallax has kept all the manufacturer in house so that they could keep a firm grip on stopping clones from appearing. Hense, the added expense of made in California.

    But I also suspect that the cost of writing the amount of good documentation that the BS2 included is rather daunting to any up-date that changes the concept much.

    The PICs don't clock as fast or have as much RAM as the SXes for a comparible chip... that is why the Ubicom was percieved as an advantage.

    There are clones that provide the same pinout at the BS2 with much higher sophistication in programing. But those tend to defeat the whole introductory learning purpose of a BS2 and put them into a catagory similar to an Arduino.

    My gut feeling for the best way forward is Propeller Basic and a Propeller MINI. In many ways, trying to back-track to the halcyon days of the BS2 with a BS3 may lead nowhere profitable.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2015-03-08 10:50
    Loopy,
    The 'other problem' with the BS2 has always been 'the tokenizer'. Since that feature is proprietary, Parallax has kept all the manufacturer in house so that they could keep a firm grip on stopping clones from appearing. Hense, the added expense of made in California.
    If understand the history correctly the only reason the Arduino exists is because some Italian guys wanted an educational platform and the BASIC Stamp whatever they were actually using was too expensive. So they made their own.

    With hindsight we might speculate that had Parallax open sourced the whole thing at the time they would have grown the market many fold and the fact that clones appeared would not have detracted from their sales. People who want "Made in America" would still have bought the originals.

    This whole "added expense of made in California" turns out to be a myth. The Raspberry Pi is made in Wales for goodness sake. Turns out you can make stuff "home grown" at a price competitive with anything from China or wherever.
  • GordonMcCombGordonMcComb Posts: 3,366
    edited 2015-03-08 11:52
    Good thing Parallax doesn't have free (and toll-free for USA calls) phone and email technical support, or they'd have to charge more!

    Seriously, many of you are comparing quite different business models, so compare everything. Don't keep cherry-picking the comparison points.
  • jmgjmg Posts: 15,173
    edited 2015-03-08 12:14
    My gut feeling for the best way forward is Propeller Basic and a Propeller MINI. In many ways, trying to back-track to the halcyon days of the BS2 with a BS3 may lead nowhere profitable.

    Nice idea, bu t the elephant in the room there, is lack of 5V operation.
    However, there are chips available in 2015, that can give an upgrade and run on 5V / 5V IO.
  • jmgjmg Posts: 15,173
    edited 2015-03-08 12:26
    David Betz wrote: »
    This doesn't make a lot of sense. They are *still* using other people's MCUs in the BS1 and the BS2 which are still active products. Apparently, they continue to trust Microchip to produce the required PIC chips. Maybe Ubicom was just a poor choice.
    Yes, it is strange - I half wonder if there is a piece of paper that locks Parallax to PIC, as a by-product of the Ubicom fallout ?
    Microchip have been releasing more 5V parts, so maybe they will have one this year that can do proper 5V IO and USB ?
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2015-03-08 12:32
    Gordon,
    Seriously, many of you are comparing quite different business models, so compare everything. Don't keep cherry-picking the comparison points.
    I'm not sure what we are comparing any more.

    Is Parallax in the chip business? If so everything said about chips and prices of chips is relevant here.

    Is Parallax in the educational materials/support business? If so why spend millions on chip design? Why not just use the Arduino or whatever?

    What is the plan here?
  • GordonMcCombGordonMcComb Posts: 3,366
    edited 2015-03-08 14:01
    Heater. wrote: »
    What is the plan here?

    You're asking in the wrong place, and of the wrong people.
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