DipTrace, BayAreaCircuits and Toner Transfer Laminator

garyg

Hi
I've just spent several weeks learning about DipTrace.
That seems to be working out, I think.
I sent an order to BayAreaCricuits through the Diptrace program for a circuit board
that I designed.
It's a simple one sided board, but I wanted to see what could possibly go wrong.

I'll post my end result as soon as I get it.

Now, on to another thing I'm trying to work out.
I'm looking at toner transfer method to make circuit boards at home.
I've spent a number of hours trying to find message threads that recommend a laminator that I could use
to do the Toner Transfer method of circuit board resist.
I'm thinking I don't use the correct search terms.

If anyone would be able to comment on a good Laminator that I could use for Toner Transfer, I would really appreciate it.

In the past, I've had some success with Toner Transfer Method and my wifes iron.
She only blackened a few shirts after I had used her iron.
It's a bit hard to understand, but she really does understand.

If I can have success with a laminator, I think my marriage may last longer than my current 42 years.

Thanks for any suggestions, comments.

Garyg

JonnyMac

I do it from time-to-time, and will be doing another board this weekend. I use the Pulsar Pro system which includes a modified laminator.

There are a lot of disolved solids in our public water here so I have to be very careful when cleaning the baord
-- use 00 with Dawn dish soap
-- after rinsing in sink, rinse again in distilled water
-- put board into 99% alcohol bath until needed
-- run through laminator 8 to 10x
-- let cool a bit before removing blue paper in distilled water
-- use green sealing foal (run through laminator 3x)
-- use the sponge to wipe copper off board -- much faster than dropping into acid bath and waiting.

I use the Preview window to selecting elements to print. Remember that you will have to mirror the output to the paper for some projects

I've attached pics a couple recent projects for my Hollywood friends; they're very simple -- and the worked the first time.

Bob Lawrence (VE1RLL)

Toner Transfer paper(I've had good luck with this one)

http://www.pulsarprofx.com/pcbfx/main_site/pages/products/transfer_paper.html

Hardware:
http://www.pulsarprofx.com/pcbfx/main_site/pages/accessories/hardware.html

Applicator: ( I use an older version similar to this one )
http://pcbfx.com/main_site/pages/products/applicator.html

electromanj

Hello Jon.
May I ask how long, if any do you wait before passes through the laminator? If I recall correctly from our discussion in my toaster oven thread, your laminator is different than mine (I also got mine in a kit from Pulsar), but mine has a temp dial of 1 to 10. In the past I have run into a problem of "over melting" the toner with too many passes through the laminator. If you are continually feeding the board through with no wait, perhaps I need to dial down the temp. One more question: Is the 99% alcohol commonly available? The closest thing I have experience with is 80% everclear over 20 years ago and I can't even make eye contact with a bottle of that to this day.... I have always used rubbing alcohol that we had around the house, but I am going to attempt a fine trace board soon and have not have great luck with those in the past. Thanks for the tips!

@garyg: I agree with getting a modified laminator from Pulsar. Mine has worked great. I also second using the green foil. It covers any pits in the toner and prevents etching inside of the traces. Sponging the etchant on the board vs. letting it sit in the etchant really speeds up the process and prevents undercutting the traces.

traVis.

JonnyMac

I have the GBC H220 (had to modify per Pulsar to slow the speed) -- I've never over-cooked traces. To be fair, I limit my small traces to 10 mils with 10-20 mils space, and if there is room I use 15 mil traces -- there's no sense in making small traces if room is available.

You can get 99% alcohol in hardware stores (paint section, along with acetone needed for removing toner from etched pcb), and some beauty supplies. As I live and work in Hollywood, I get it from a special effects materials supplier. Note: Do not leave 99% alcohol uncapped. Pour out what you need and then cap your supply. 99% alcohol is hygroscopic and will pull moisture out of the air, diluting its strength. I learned this through my FX supplier. A lot of the make-up we use in film is alcohol activated, and won't work with rubbing (70%) or other diluted variants.

W9GFO

electromanj wrote: »

One more question: Is the 99% alcohol commonly available?

Klleen Strip Green Denatured Alcohol from Home Depot is 190 proof/95%. I don't know where to get purer alcohol without resorting to a scientific supply place.

You may be able to find 190 proof everclear too.

garyg

Thanks for your comments, opinions, instructions.
I'll be checking out the Pulsar Pro system.

I'll try it.
The only concern I have now is that the Pulsar people are saying the Brother Laser printers
do not work well with their system.
As it happens I have a Brother HL-2270DW Black Laser Printer.

I'm hoping that the Laminator from Pulsar will also do a good job of Laminating.
I'm planning on making a tact switch/LCD window that I can glue to the top of my current project.

I'll let you know how all this works out.

Garyg

W9GFO

The Brother lasers use a different type of toner. They do not work.

garyg

I decided to try the Pulsar Fab In a Box kit and the Tamerica SM-330 applicator/Laminator.
After looking at lots of MSDS sheets for different toners sold by Brother and HP, I've come to the conclusion
that Some Laser printers work and some do not.
Styrene material used in toner does not appear to be the most common any longer.
Brother toner uses a Polyester material in their toner as do quite a few HP toner cartridges.

While I really want to use my Brother printer, I'll be attempting to use my local OfficeMax Xerox machines.
The people there are quite friendly and understand that I'll be doing something that's not typical for them.

I ordered the Fab In A Box and Laminator this evening.
My hope with making this purchase through Pulsar is, that I will, in some manner do successful toner transfer and
be able to make an acceptable looking LCD and pushbutton window on my current project.

I realize this does not involve Parallax parts, but most everything connected to this project will
be using Parallax parts, from my serial LCD to PropMini controller.

Thanks for all of your comments and suggestions
I'll let you know how all of this adventure turns out.

garyg

Hi
Received my TM-330 Laminator and PCB FAB-in a-Box.
I had success on my 2nd attempt using Toner Transfer method.
1st attempt failed because I did not have the temperature set high enough.
On the TM-330 Laminator, I had success using the #6 temperature setting.

I cleaned the single sided board using most of JonnyMac's suggestions in post 2
The water here is very good. No water softener needed. Very few dissolved solids.

After cleaning the board with 00 Steel Wool and Dawn, I rinsed the board and wiped it down with Denatured Alcohol.

I preheated the Laminator to #6 setting leaving the rollers run for about 5 minutes after temp set light turned on.

The Toner image was copied to the Toner Transfer paper using OfficeMax Xerox copier.
I set the copier as dark as I could with still getting a clean image.

I ran the PCB/toner transfer paper through the Laminator 8x

After soaking the PCB/Toner Transfer paper for about 1 minute, the transfer paper floated away from the board.

If my photo is visible, it shows results after etching.
The narrow traces on the circuit are 0.020" wide.
The wide traces are 0.35" wide.
I think I should have made my pads a bit smaller

There was no undercutting of the copper during etching.
I used the sponge technique and warm ferric Chloride solution from RadioShack.
I like the sponge technique very much. Very little etchant was used and
the etching was complete in 5 minutes.

The TRF foil is slightly tricky to apply, but it turned out good - I only ran the TRF foil one time through the laminator.

One of the circuits in the photo had the toner wiped off with acetone.
The other circuit had the toner wiped off with 00 steel wool and Dawn dishwashing soap, "better result"

On another note:

I received order confirmation from BayAreaCircuits and am waiting for that circuit board.
I think there will be some mistakes from my dip-trace layout, I'll find that out when BayAreaCircuits is done making it.

Just thought I'd give an update
gary

garyg

HI
Today I received my circuit boards from Bay Area Circuits.
Bay Area Circuits did a very good job with my 1st circuit board at a board house design.
I'll try to attach a photo.



The circuit boards turned out better than I had expected.
Single Sided boards with thru plated holes.
I soldered my Tact switches. This was my 1st experience with soldering thru plated holes.
I really like this.

I was very concerned about my hole sizes in the pads. That worked out very good.
All my parts are fitting.

The only thing I can say that I did wrong in ordering these was that I ordered a quantity of 2 as suggested,
but I received a quantity of 4.

Since I ordered these through the DipTrace program, I'll change that next time.

Just thought you'd like to know.

This learning experience is going well so far.

Garyg

W9GFO

garyg wrote: »

I'll try to attach a photo.

This is what you need to do make the image visible;

[noparse][/noparse]

garyg

Thanks W9GFO
I copied and pasted what you suggested "img]http://forums.parallax.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=113515&d=1426565594[/img]"
BUT
I truly don't understand where it came from.
When I use the Go Advanced box, I never see anything like this. "img]http://forums.parallax.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=113515&d=1426565594[/img]"
AND NOW
I noticed the "small paper clip AttachedImagesBox" that showed up in my Post#11

I think I need just a bit more info on where this comes from "img]http://forums.parallax.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=113515&d=1426565594[/img]"

Thank you very much
Garyg

W9GFO

When you make the attachment and preview it, just right click on it and open in a new tab. That new tab should contain only the image. Copy that URL and use it between the [noparse]

Bob Lawrence (VE1RLL)

@garyg

Your board is looking mighty fine.

BayAreaCircuits

Hi Garyg - Brian from Bay Area Circuits here. I just wanted to let you know that you did nothing wrong in terms of the quantity you ordered via Diptrace. We always build more than what the customer orders to make sure we yield the desired quantity. In most every case we yield more than the quantity ordered, and for Diptrace customers we'll ship everything we yield.

JonnyMac

BayAreaCircuits wrote: »

Hi Garyg - Brian from Bay Area Circuits here. I just wanted to let you know that you did nothing wrong in terms of the quantity you ordered via Diptrace. We always build more than what the customer orders to make sure we yield the desired quantity. In most every case we yield more than the quantity ordered, and for Diptrace customers we'll ship everything we yield.

I can vouch for Bay Area Circuits on this: I have always received more boards than I ordered. I recently ordered three sets of boards on the same day, but not at the same time, hence was charged shipping for each. When the boards were done they were packed together and part of the total shipping charges were refunded. One of those boards was a Bluetooth adapter (using an HC-06 core) for the Propeller-powered EFX-TEK HC-8+ controller. The BT add-on was a big hit at Transworld (Halloween trade show) last week.

I've only ever had one problem with boards from BAC, and this had to do with me using TrueType font on a PCB that was ordered through the menu. Their staff were excellent -- I ultimately exported a Gerber for the silk layer and they replaced the wonky boards.

I've said it elsewhere and will say again: with DipTrace and the ease-of-ordering from Bay Area Circuits, I don't know why anyone would use ExpressPCB anymore.