How is what happened on 64 or 32 bit Intel based tabs and laptops relevant to what happens on the little ARM board?
Very relevant in OS land.
The Win 8.1 release in 32 bit version essentially for free on a $99 tablet, is a major move for Microsoft (see the other threads already here about using the S7 )
The RaspPi website states this
["For the last six months we've been working closely with Microsoft to bring the forthcoming Windows 10 to Raspberry Pi 2."] - clearly, RaspPi also see it as important. (as do Microsoft)
6 months is quite a short time, and made easier by the other 'small' 32 bit engines that Windows is ported to already.
No, not unless those software vendors rebuild their apps for the ARM processor an Pi in particular. Which as I said I don't see happening any time soon.
Did you not see the title of this thread ?
Parallax themselves are one such vendor who has ARM ports, expect to see others too.
Windows 10 will be significant, and no, I do not expect everyone to use it.
Besides, I will suggest that there is a LOT MORE useful software for the Pi in the world of Open Source.
Sure, but they are not mutually exclusive.
Users can choose which OS they load (just like they can now, on PCs )
Many will continue to be Windows Averse, others will want to focus on what they want to get done, and use whatever tools does that fastest.
"For the last six months we've been working closely with Microsoft to bring the forthcoming Windows 10 to Raspberry Pi 2."
Yep, I saw that. I find it amazing. The whole idea of the Pi was exactly to counter the situation of ignorance of computing among the young that MS and others have created over the decades.
That whole idea that, "We produce software, you don't. You use it, you pay us. You don't need to know anything".
Parallax themselves are one such vendor who has ARM ports, expect to see others too.
Yes indeed.
The point there is that, late to the game, Parallax were convinced by it's customers that going Open Source was a good idea. Prior to that there were only Windows only dev tools from Parallax.
I was the first to provide binary executables of SimpleIDE for the PI.
How so? Because it's Open Source. Because I can. It does not need Windows or Mac or whatever.
The vast majority of software in the Windows/Mac world is not open source, you will never see it on the Pi.
On the other hand if it is Open Source then why would you need Windows?
I guess I was to subtle with mention of SimpleIDE for the Raspberry Pi 2. I built a program using SimpleIDE RC2 on my Windows 7 box, and then I moved it over to my Raspberry Pi, which I compiled and ran. The program compiled without any problems, but because I am using XMMC mode, the program does not work as expected. I think Sin\mpleIDE for the Raspberry Pi may be having problems dealing with XMMC mode compilation. The program was not able to do float value computations correctly, and it was having a problem dealing with local variables in the different functions that I have.
So, SimpleIDE should be able to load and run on the Rasberry Pi 2, but SimpleIDE, when using XMMC mode, will not work as expected. Just a warning if you will be using XMMC mode, chances are that the program will not run as expected. There is no problem when you use CMM mode. Hopefully this will be taken care of with SimpleIDE ver 1.0, and then I can go ahead and use SimpleIDE in XMMC mode.
This places Windows on the ARM platform (read tablets and phones) - in direct competition with Android & iOS.
Of course, all windows apps will need to be recompiled for ARM. MS will recompile their apps for ARM - Office, etc, etc.
IMHO emulation of the x86 on ARM would be too slow to run other apps.
MS only released Windows 8 in 64-bit (excluding the 32bit for the small tablet devices) in an attempt to force old apps to be redone which should permit subsequent recompilation to ARM and Windows 10. After all, they have a lot of catching up to get into the Android/iOS market.
For us users though, this is great news. More competition and options.
And what an about face for MS. After successive years of increasing the cost of each release of Windows, they have had to about face in order to get into the Android/iOS market on ARM processors.
Your failure building and running a Propeller program with SimpleIDE on the Pi vs SimpleIDE on Windows is disturbing and for sure needs investigating.
However your description of the problem is impossible to understand.
If I get the idea you have:
1) Propeller program => SimpleIDE on Windows => Propeller ; Works
2) Propeller program => SimpleIDE on the Pi => Propeller ; Fails
So the questions then are:
a) Do you have SimpleIDE built from the same sources on both Windows and the Pi?
b) SimpleIDE uses prop-gcc and openspin. Do you have the same versions of those on both Windows and the Pi?
If all those versions are the same I would be surprised to see such a failure.
But to be sure we can check are the Propeller binaries the same when compiled on Windows and the Pi
Can you check the md5sum or other checksum of both Windows and Pi produced binaries? Or do a diff on them?
Heck, post the Propeller source code here and we will try to build it and see what is going on.
Whatever it is it's a bug that needs reporting and fixing.
Of course, all windows apps will need to be recompiled for ARM. MS will recompile their apps for ARM - Office, etc, etc.
No, won't happen. MS already had Windows on ARM. Windows RT. That was flop because there were no apps for it.
Office and such are now so huge and bloated that they would run like snails there anyway, no one actually wants that. Besides, with all publishing being done on the net now a days why would the young kids need a word processor?
Then there is the entire universe of commercial Windows apps that people like that are not made by MS. Few of them are going to get rebuilt for the Pi either.
And what an about face for MS. After successive years of increasing the cost of each release of Windows, ...
Indeed. With the cost of hardware approaching zero the cost of the OS becomes very significant. When other operating systems are already at zero cost MS is going to have to pay people to use their stuff.
Basically they are out of business.
I don't believe this push by MS is about Windows and Windows apps. No, as they say it's an "IoT Developer Program". They want to get you into using their cloud services for your IoT gadgets. And perhaps some IoT app store for phone and tab apps to work with those IoT cloud services.
Oh, and only free for use on the Pi for non-commercial use. God forbid you develop a potential product with that and then find you can't move to Google cloud services, or AWS, or Digital Ocean or.....
In my opinion, "It runs Windows 10" = pure marketing hype to gather attention for MS and Windows 10. As already stated, it will be a stripped down Windows 10 with severe limitations as compared to what most people think when we hear that something runs Windows. When it comes down to it, my choices are either ~full Linux on a Pi or a stripped down, limited version of what MS calls it's latest OS??? Linux wins out easily.
On the other hand, Many machines use stripped down versions of Windows OS already. For example, Juki high speed SMT placement machines run on Windows XPe (XP Embedded) and do so rather well. Depending on how powerful the Windows 10 and Pi2 combo is, I could see some XPe based machines (as well as CE based machines) migrate to this solution, even if only for cost savings.
Sheesh, I should have come here earlier today to discuss the Pi 2!
First, bad choice in name. It should have been Raspberry Pi Model C.
Second... Windows 10 for IoT? Seriously? Really?
I'll probably try it just to see if it has a killer feature, but kinda doubt it.
I've been trying to order a couple today, but all the web stores are "out of stock" / "Expecting stock soon" .. last time this happened (with A+) it took me two weeks to get my hands on one.
But, I love the:
- 1GB
- four cores
- price
Not happy about no SATA, no USB3.
FYI, there are reviews of
Raspberry Pi Model A+
Raspberry Pi Model B+
Banana Pi
Banana Pro
MIPS Creator CI20
on my site, and I've verified all of the above as working with RoboPi (ie Propeller)
after mulling it over all day I have come to the conclusion the name is fine and it's all a storm in a tea cup.
So this thing is a bit faster for having some extra cores. (I know they say 6x speed up but really, I bet the average node, or Python app or single threaded C/C++ app won't see that.
Yeah a bit more RAM is always nice.
The biggest boost I'm waiting for is to be able to use webgl from a browser or Qt web component on the Pi. That is purely down to software as the GPU is plenty fast enough when using OpenGL in an application.
IMHO the Pi 2 B+ (yeah that's what it really is as they are reserving the A+ for now at least) is a fine name. The naming doesn't much worry me, it's the product that counts.
1GB RAM and Quad core 900MHz with low power via USB is a winner, especially at the retained $35.
I don't care about Windows 10, at least for now anyway. But I can see the benefit and direction MS is headed from this - if you don't see this as being another way to get into the ARM market after the Windows RT failure, then you are missing the point. IoT is just another smokescreen - yes its valid but so is running other apps under windows valid too.
As for Windows performance, apart from the SATA or equivalent interface (only a R.Pi problem, not generally an ARM tablet/phone problem), I don't see much wrong with this. I still run W7 on a 1.8GHz Celeron with 1GB RAM. MS would need to cull some of the windows overhead, but they have been working on this from W7 onwards. ie W7 is faster than Vista, and W8 is faster than W7. I expect W10 to be faster again, with less resource hogging.
Anyway, both R.Pi and MS will benefit from W10 - Just wait till you see it on tablets and phones (after the CE and W6 debarcles). MS does learn, sometimes slowly. And don't forget Office365 is in the cloud (with an annual licence).
And AMD is working on a 64-bit ARM apparently targeting the server market first.
Just sayin' there is more than meets the eye with this announcement.
BTW the Pi 2 will certainly impact the Arduino market, and even the P1 and P2 market !!! (and I am not saying a P1/P2 is an ARM equivalent). The Pi hits the price point.
To me it's totally obvious why MS wants Windows on the Pi, and apparently for free, and it's the same reason there's a low price for the tablet Windows versions. It's not at all to let people run Office or anything like that. It's not for people at all, it's a move for Microsoft. A very obvious one: Bait and hook. Clear as crystal. Get people to use Windows. That's the thing. After that they'll want what they've used before, on other computers, with more power and more software (and that is the _only_ place where the software will be - for the obvious reason, read on): Because _that_ version won't be free. Have you tried buying Windows for a PC lately? I had a look around in a shop here in Japan some days ago, for a PC with a broken HDD - the HDD can be replaced but as it was running Vista (and has no original media) the option would be to by a newer Windows. Oh boy. Not exactly low cost.
The short version of the above is this particular part: Bait and hook. Easy as that
Anyway, both R.Pi and MS will benefit from W10 - Just wait till you see it on tablets and phones (after the CE and W6 debarcles). MS does learn, sometimes slowly. And don't forget Office365 is in the cloud (with an annual licence).
Win 8.1 is tolerable on the HP S7 tablet.
Yes, Microsoft is after your eyeballs first, and the after market store+subscriptions second.
Google makes BIG money out of knowing what you are doing, (aka your eyeballs) so MS will do the same.
BTW the Pi 2 will certainly impact the Arduino market, and even the P1 and P2 market !!! (and I am not saying a P1/P2 is an ARM equivalent). The Pi hits the price point.
Yes, it does set a Price-reference point.
Another example is the BeMAX10 board at ~ $30\
Notice already, how anyone offering a $200 EvalBoard, finds traction very hard to make ?
It does make USB support important on P2, for ease of connection outside of the pin-header.
If the P2 does not quite manage USB, then Parallax should seed a tiny uC-USB Bridge development.
- one that swallows the extra parts and adds on slave peripherals (12b Adc?) & maybe a Terminal etc.
Many Development boards from the big vendors have uC for USB + Other functions, all improving ease of use, and giving better debug flows.
If the P2 does not quite manage USB, then Parallax should seed a tiny uC-USB Bridge development.
- one that swallows the extra parts and adds on slave peripherals (12b Adc?) & maybe a Terminal etc.
Many Development boards from the big vendors have uC for USB + Other functions, all improving ease of use, and giving better debug flows.
Funny, I was thinking the same thing the other night while looking at the Trinket I recently bought. Tiny little thing and has USB. I was thinking it should make a great USB-Serial adapter (if it is capable of it of course) and then once the Propeller is up and alive, it could be handing some mundane tasks to handle as a coprocessor. Although I am sure there is probably some other dirt cheap uC that could act as a USB-Serial chip and a coprocessor...................
If you want something to perform SD read / write and also be USB host (to load from USB flash) or slave (to save data to USB flash) with FAT/FAT32 for Prop 1/2 over I2C, SPI or UART....
maybe https://www.ghielectronics.com/catalog/product/512
Funny, I was thinking the same thing the other night while looking at the Trinket I recently bought. Tiny little thing and has USB. I was thinking it should make a great USB-Serial adapter (if it is capable of it of course) and then once the Propeller is up and alive, it could be handing some mundane tasks to handle as a coprocessor. Although I am sure there is probably some other dirt cheap uC that could act as a USB-Serial chip and a coprocessor...................
Yes, it needs to be one notch up from the very cheapest micros, ie have proper USB HW, with good FIFOs and Dual UARTS with good Baud choices, and ideally work with existing drivers. Under $1 ideally ?
Something may be close, as SiLabs is testing a Library for their small flash uC that will 'look like' a CP210x device.
Such a library would be Prop-tweaked to run 2 ports (UART and i2c/SPI) so it can pgm flash directly, or use Boot-load / Debug UART.
Direct PGM should be faster than just Boot, & I see Winbond SPI parts can pgm at > 3.2MBd streaming.
MCU Packages are 3mm or 4mm QFN region.
Seems the whole Windows 10 on the Pi 2 is a bit of a sad joke. From what I can gather:
1) It has no Windows. No GUI at all. Command line only. So no compiling SimpleIDE/PropellerIDE for Windows on the Pi until a graphics driver appears.
2) It supports a subset of the Win32 and the Arduino Wiring API set. Yay, fantastic, MS has has reduced a 4 core 1GHz, 1GB RAM machine to an Arduino!
3) That command line interface is via Telnet not even a DOS box on the screen. But really telnet? For an IoT device? No SSH?. Tell me it's not really so dumb.
Comments
The Win 8.1 release in 32 bit version essentially for free on a $99 tablet, is a major move for Microsoft (see the other threads already here about using the S7 )
The RaspPi website states this
["For the last six months we've been working closely with Microsoft to bring the forthcoming Windows 10 to Raspberry Pi 2."] - clearly, RaspPi also see it as important. (as do Microsoft)
6 months is quite a short time, and made easier by the other 'small' 32 bit engines that Windows is ported to already.
Did you not see the title of this thread ?
Parallax themselves are one such vendor who has ARM ports, expect to see others too.
Windows 10 will be significant, and no, I do not expect everyone to use it.
Sure, but they are not mutually exclusive.
Users can choose which OS they load (just like they can now, on PCs )
Many will continue to be Windows Averse, others will want to focus on what they want to get done, and use whatever tools does that fastest.
I do agree, extra cores for those extra processes cannot be anything but good.
I will wager though that SimpleIDE/PropellerIDE does not see anything like a 6 times speed up. Maybe something proportional to the clock speed jump.
Sniffing around the net I see the Pi 2 has hit news outlets all over and they are all over the "It runs Windows 10" thing.
I wonder if they have any idea what that means.
It's all very distressing.
That right there. My guess: not a chance. Who wants to go teach the non-technical public the difference between x86 and ARM?
Java/Android might be a giant powersuck... but at least it solved that problem.
That whole idea that, "We produce software, you don't. You use it, you pay us. You don't need to know anything". Yes indeed.
The point there is that, late to the game, Parallax were convinced by it's customers that going Open Source was a good idea. Prior to that there were only Windows only dev tools from Parallax.
I was the first to provide binary executables of SimpleIDE for the PI.
How so? Because it's Open Source. Because I can. It does not need Windows or Mac or whatever.
The vast majority of software in the Windows/Mac world is not open source, you will never see it on the Pi.
On the other hand if it is Open Source then why would you need Windows?
So, SimpleIDE should be able to load and run on the Rasberry Pi 2, but SimpleIDE, when using XMMC mode, will not work as expected. Just a warning if you will be using XMMC mode, chances are that the program will not run as expected. There is no problem when you use CMM mode. Hopefully this will be taken care of with SimpleIDE ver 1.0, and then I can go ahead and use SimpleIDE in XMMC mode.
Ray
This places Windows on the ARM platform (read tablets and phones) - in direct competition with Android & iOS.
Of course, all windows apps will need to be recompiled for ARM. MS will recompile their apps for ARM - Office, etc, etc.
IMHO emulation of the x86 on ARM would be too slow to run other apps.
MS only released Windows 8 in 64-bit (excluding the 32bit for the small tablet devices) in an attempt to force old apps to be redone which should permit subsequent recompilation to ARM and Windows 10. After all, they have a lot of catching up to get into the Android/iOS market.
For us users though, this is great news. More competition and options.
And what an about face for MS. After successive years of increasing the cost of each release of Windows, they have had to about face in order to get into the Android/iOS market on ARM processors.
Your failure building and running a Propeller program with SimpleIDE on the Pi vs SimpleIDE on Windows is disturbing and for sure needs investigating.
However your description of the problem is impossible to understand.
If I get the idea you have:
1) Propeller program => SimpleIDE on Windows => Propeller ; Works
2) Propeller program => SimpleIDE on the Pi => Propeller ; Fails
So the questions then are:
a) Do you have SimpleIDE built from the same sources on both Windows and the Pi?
b) SimpleIDE uses prop-gcc and openspin. Do you have the same versions of those on both Windows and the Pi?
If all those versions are the same I would be surprised to see such a failure.
But to be sure we can check are the Propeller binaries the same when compiled on Windows and the Pi
Can you check the md5sum or other checksum of both Windows and Pi produced binaries? Or do a diff on them?
Heck, post the Propeller source code here and we will try to build it and see what is going on.
Whatever it is it's a bug that needs reporting and fixing.
I very much doubt it's a Pi problem.
Office and such are now so huge and bloated that they would run like snails there anyway, no one actually wants that. Besides, with all publishing being done on the net now a days why would the young kids need a word processor?
Then there is the entire universe of commercial Windows apps that people like that are not made by MS. Few of them are going to get rebuilt for the Pi either. Indeed. With the cost of hardware approaching zero the cost of the OS becomes very significant. When other operating systems are already at zero cost MS is going to have to pay people to use their stuff.
Basically they are out of business.
I don't believe this push by MS is about Windows and Windows apps. No, as they say it's an "IoT Developer Program". They want to get you into using their cloud services for your IoT gadgets. And perhaps some IoT app store for phone and tab apps to work with those IoT cloud services.
Oh, and only free for use on the Pi for non-commercial use. God forbid you develop a potential product with that and then find you can't move to Google cloud services, or AWS, or Digital Ocean or.....
Either way, this is getting interesting...
But the question of why anyone would want any kind of Windows on the Pi is deeply disturbing.
Dogs and cats sleeping together, raining frogs, plagues of locusts, fire and brimstone, Jay Leno being funny...
It's totally upset my world model.
I'd love to hear what the Pi community thinks about it but it seems they are so upset they have fire bombed the Raspberry Pi discussion forum.
My personal world model would be upset if MS actually created a lean OS with 10.
The Pi forum is back up after being overwhelmed all day. So far they have less discussion of the new board there than we do here.
Awesome specs. Lots of RAM
On the other hand, Many machines use stripped down versions of Windows OS already. For example, Juki high speed SMT placement machines run on Windows XPe (XP Embedded) and do so rather well. Depending on how powerful the Windows 10 and Pi2 combo is, I could see some XPe based machines (as well as CE based machines) migrate to this solution, even if only for cost savings.
I guess you mean XPe apps and CE apps with a GUI.
Someone here mentioned preferring a GUI over command line "bashing".
Sorry, it seems it's like this:
"It's WIn10 IoT which is command line, no desktop."
Straight from a Pi developer.
So even less functional than Linux. I really don't get the point. I must be missing something.
I just want to run SompleIDE/PropellerIDE on it.
There is a lot of software support that direction. It would be nice to see Parallax support it after they complete their Apple iPad stuff.
What's the thing about Android? Apart from making developing anything on it harder and clunkier?
I always wished I could run Debian on my Android phone!
You get to write your apps in Java????? (...runs and hides)
First, bad choice in name. It should have been Raspberry Pi Model C.
Second... Windows 10 for IoT? Seriously? Really?
I'll probably try it just to see if it has a killer feature, but kinda doubt it.
I've been trying to order a couple today, but all the web stores are "out of stock" / "Expecting stock soon" .. last time this happened (with A+) it took me two weeks to get my hands on one.
But, I love the:
- 1GB
- four cores
- price
Not happy about no SATA, no USB3.
FYI, there are reviews of
Raspberry Pi Model A+
Raspberry Pi Model B+
Banana Pi
Banana Pro
MIPS Creator CI20
on my site, and I've verified all of the above as working with RoboPi (ie Propeller)
after mulling it over all day I have come to the conclusion the name is fine and it's all a storm in a tea cup.
So this thing is a bit faster for having some extra cores. (I know they say 6x speed up but really, I bet the average node, or Python app or single threaded C/C++ app won't see that.
Yeah a bit more RAM is always nice.
The biggest boost I'm waiting for is to be able to use webgl from a browser or Qt web component on the Pi. That is purely down to software as the GPU is plenty fast enough when using OpenGL in an application.
1GB RAM and Quad core 900MHz with low power via USB is a winner, especially at the retained $35.
I don't care about Windows 10, at least for now anyway. But I can see the benefit and direction MS is headed from this - if you don't see this as being another way to get into the ARM market after the Windows RT failure, then you are missing the point. IoT is just another smokescreen - yes its valid but so is running other apps under windows valid too.
As for Windows performance, apart from the SATA or equivalent interface (only a R.Pi problem, not generally an ARM tablet/phone problem), I don't see much wrong with this. I still run W7 on a 1.8GHz Celeron with 1GB RAM. MS would need to cull some of the windows overhead, but they have been working on this from W7 onwards. ie W7 is faster than Vista, and W8 is faster than W7. I expect W10 to be faster again, with less resource hogging.
Anyway, both R.Pi and MS will benefit from W10 - Just wait till you see it on tablets and phones (after the CE and W6 debarcles). MS does learn, sometimes slowly. And don't forget Office365 is in the cloud (with an annual licence).
And AMD is working on a 64-bit ARM apparently targeting the server market first.
Just sayin' there is more than meets the eye with this announcement.
BTW the Pi 2 will certainly impact the Arduino market, and even the P1 and P2 market !!! (and I am not saying a P1/P2 is an ARM equivalent). The Pi hits the price point.
The short version of the above is this particular part: Bait and hook. Easy as that
-Tor
Yes, Microsoft is after your eyeballs first, and the after market store+subscriptions second.
Google makes BIG money out of knowing what you are doing, (aka your eyeballs) so MS will do the same.
Yes, it does set a Price-reference point.
Another example is the BeMAX10 board at ~ $30\
Notice already, how anyone offering a $200 EvalBoard, finds traction very hard to make ?
It does make USB support important on P2, for ease of connection outside of the pin-header.
If the P2 does not quite manage USB, then Parallax should seed a tiny uC-USB Bridge development.
- one that swallows the extra parts and adds on slave peripherals (12b Adc?) & maybe a Terminal etc.
Many Development boards from the big vendors have uC for USB + Other functions, all improving ease of use, and giving better debug flows.
Funny, I was thinking the same thing the other night while looking at the Trinket I recently bought. Tiny little thing and has USB. I was thinking it should make a great USB-Serial adapter (if it is capable of it of course) and then once the Propeller is up and alive, it could be handing some mundane tasks to handle as a coprocessor. Although I am sure there is probably some other dirt cheap uC that could act as a USB-Serial chip and a coprocessor...................
maybe https://www.ghielectronics.com/catalog/product/512
Something may be close, as SiLabs is testing a Library for their small flash uC that will 'look like' a CP210x device.
Such a library would be Prop-tweaked to run 2 ports (UART and i2c/SPI) so it can pgm flash directly, or use Boot-load / Debug UART.
Direct PGM should be faster than just Boot, & I see Winbond SPI parts can pgm at > 3.2MBd streaming.
MCU Packages are 3mm or 4mm QFN region.
1) It has no Windows. No GUI at all. Command line only. So no compiling SimpleIDE/PropellerIDE for Windows on the Pi until a graphics driver appears.
2) It supports a subset of the Win32 and the Arduino Wiring API set. Yay, fantastic, MS has has reduced a 4 core 1GHz, 1GB RAM machine to an Arduino!
3) That command line interface is via Telnet not even a DOS box on the screen. But really telnet? For an IoT device? No SSH?. Tell me it's not really so dumb.
See FAQ here: http://ms-iot.github.io/content/WelcomeAndFAQ.htm
So it is not a Windows 10; it is only DOS 10