You mean that at some point in the future, when the time machine is invented, things get very confusing?
I think the paradox is also removed if you go back to time zero or before.
I once, in the future, accidentally hit the "Go" button on my time machine when the destination time was reset to zero. Yes I arrived at the beginning of time.
Under the prevailing conditions at that point, and having been compressed to the point size of space available at that time, I spontaneously exploded thus forming the universe as we know it today.
Story time indeed. If another theory is correct going back in time will not help us at all. A new universe will be created where the P2 is available much earlier and we will still be waiting for it..
The paradox of the time machine goes away if you cannot go back before the invention of the time machine.
Wait a minute, how does that work out?
Let's say I invent a time machine today. Well, soon, my design still relies on a PII control element.
Anyway, that means that people in the future can go back as far as today.
That means that they can still do weird stuff like killing their grandfather thus rendering their existence impossible, thus making it impossible for them to kill their grandfather, thus meaning that they did come into existence thus..... as long as all that happens after today. They are still in a mess.
Could be, and this is a depressing thought, that the time machine does not exist because it depends on a PII based control element. The PII never came to be...
Yes, you're right, I forgot to qualify my paradox statement - it's only that paradoxial part about 'if time machines were possible, where are the time travellers?'. Well, that isn't actually a paradox - only the part where it lead into the discussion about where if you discuss using time travel to fix the P2 development and then start thinking that if so it should have happened already and we don't need that discussion but then it wouldn't happen.. and so on, in circles. That particular paradox can't happen here and now according to the "you can't travel to a time before the time machine was invented" hypothesis. But obviously you can still get into all sorts of paradoxes (including this one) at a later date.
So presumably the correct hypothesis is the alternative one (already mentioned in the thread) that if you go back in time and change something, you simply create a new universe. If time travel is possible. The third hypothesis is of course the one that nature somehow always manages to prohibit it.. and those three are probably all the time travel variants you'll ever need.
But now it's way past even story time for me, it's nearly two hours after midnight.
The third hypothesis is of course the one that nature somehow always manages to prohibit it.. and those three are probably all the time travel variants you'll ever need.
I guess those are the three variants. I'm quite proud of my going back to time zero idea and becoming the big bang and hence the new universe. No need for a parallel universe as there wasn't one before. I don't think I have heard that suggestion before. Still I'm not sure I want to spontaneously explode!
As for nature prohibiting it. For sure if I appeared in front of you now in my time cabinet from the future that would appear to violate the current understanding of the laws of conservation of energy, momentum and whatever else. Energy would seem to have disappeared from some place in the future and appeared in front of you now. That's just not on.
Then I have an issue with the space I would want to occupy in front of you. Presumably all that air or whatever that exists in the volume that I want to occupy would have to instantly be moved out of the way to make room for my machine. If we say "instantly" that implies and infinite acceleration of a lot of particles, an infinite amount of energy input to do that, and a consequent explosion that would destroy the universe. You would not be happy to see me!
That of course is a variant of causing the big bang. The old universe is instantly replaced by a new one.
Do you have a feeling that all this waiting for the PII is slowly driving us all round the bend?
But then we would constantly be fluctuating between having a P2 and not having one, until that part of the past gets frozen and it stops fluctuating (hopefully in the state with a P2). But then we could make a robot with our P2 that automatically surfs time waves to make sure that the universe stays in the state with a P2...
Just in one direction. And slow. To travel one minute in time it will take about a minute to do so.
Some very funny and nicely explained time travel variants were explored by Watterson in his Calvin&Hobbes, and also that one. My favourite story is of course the one where Calvin time-travelled to avoid having to do his homework. By forcing himself to do it for him.
I'm reading this in the morning, so this also is story time. Because most stories are brought to existance during the day. There definitely is a reason to make a time travel: we know that the future is unsure, many can happen, starting from now. But what about the past? The past also is not known, otherwise we would not discuss, how things came into being. So a time machine would allow us to go back and see, what really happend.
But wait: we will see, that decisions made earlier are based on incomplete awareness, so they are errorprone and often show the unexpected result.
So, what to conclude:
We are a part inside a huge time machine. We are not finished yet, so we are witnesses of a process in a machine that tries to find out what this very moment happens by examining the past and the future. That is, what we call Universe. Outside there is a creature which makes such experiments over and over, owns trillions of such time machines and tries to figure out what happens in his presence. ;-)
OK, I have to continue my work as a little gear in the time machine, so let me have my coffee and go on!
Comments
I think the paradox is also removed if you go back to time zero or before.
I once, in the future, accidentally hit the "Go" button on my time machine when the destination time was reset to zero. Yes I arrived at the beginning of time.
Under the prevailing conditions at that point, and having been compressed to the point size of space available at that time, I spontaneously exploded thus forming the universe as we know it today.
You see I will be the Big Bang.
Probably happened already, lucky b's.
Let's say I invent a time machine today. Well, soon, my design still relies on a PII control element.
Anyway, that means that people in the future can go back as far as today.
That means that they can still do weird stuff like killing their grandfather thus rendering their existence impossible, thus making it impossible for them to kill their grandfather, thus meaning that they did come into existence thus..... as long as all that happens after today. They are still in a mess.
Could be, and this is a depressing thought, that the time machine does not exist because it depends on a PII based control element. The PII never came to be...
Yes, you're right, I forgot to qualify my paradox statement - it's only that paradoxial part about 'if time machines were possible, where are the time travellers?'. Well, that isn't actually a paradox - only the part where it lead into the discussion about where if you discuss using time travel to fix the P2 development and then start thinking that if so it should have happened already and we don't need that discussion but then it wouldn't happen.. and so on, in circles. That particular paradox can't happen here and now according to the "you can't travel to a time before the time machine was invented" hypothesis. But obviously you can still get into all sorts of paradoxes (including this one) at a later date.
So presumably the correct hypothesis is the alternative one (already mentioned in the thread) that if you go back in time and change something, you simply create a new universe. If time travel is possible. The third hypothesis is of course the one that nature somehow always manages to prohibit it.. and those three are probably all the time travel variants you'll ever need.
But now it's way past even story time for me, it's nearly two hours after midnight.
-Tor
As for nature prohibiting it. For sure if I appeared in front of you now in my time cabinet from the future that would appear to violate the current understanding of the laws of conservation of energy, momentum and whatever else. Energy would seem to have disappeared from some place in the future and appeared in front of you now. That's just not on.
Then I have an issue with the space I would want to occupy in front of you. Presumably all that air or whatever that exists in the volume that I want to occupy would have to instantly be moved out of the way to make room for my machine. If we say "instantly" that implies and infinite acceleration of a lot of particles, an infinite amount of energy input to do that, and a consequent explosion that would destroy the universe. You would not be happy to see me!
That of course is a variant of causing the big bang. The old universe is instantly replaced by a new one.
Do you have a feeling that all this waiting for the PII is slowly driving us all round the bend?
http://www.achrongame.com/site/
But then we would constantly be fluctuating between having a P2 and not having one, until that part of the past gets frozen and it stops fluctuating (hopefully in the state with a P2). But then we could make a robot with our P2 that automatically surfs time waves to make sure that the universe stays in the state with a P2...
These guys seem to have found a solution.
Just in one direction. And slow. To travel one minute in time it will take about a minute to do so. Nasty side effect: You get older while doing it.
Enjoy!
Mike
Some very funny and nicely explained time travel variants were explored by Watterson in his Calvin&Hobbes, and also that one. My favourite story is of course the one where Calvin time-travelled to avoid having to do his homework. By forcing himself to do it for him.
-Tor
But wait: we will see, that decisions made earlier are based on incomplete awareness, so they are errorprone and often show the unexpected result.
So, what to conclude:
We are a part inside a huge time machine. We are not finished yet, so we are witnesses of a process in a machine that tries to find out what this very moment happens by examining the past and the future. That is, what we call Universe. Outside there is a creature which makes such experiments over and over, owns trillions of such time machines and tries to figure out what happens in his presence. ;-)
OK, I have to continue my work as a little gear in the time machine, so let me have my coffee and go on!