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Just for FUN: 50kV High Speed Electrostatic Corona Motor — Parallax Forums

Just for FUN: 50kV High Speed Electrostatic Corona Motor

Beau SchwabeBeau Schwabe Posts: 6,566
edited 2015-01-11 10:30 in General Discussion
Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqaV7iEl3rM


Talk about fundamentals (in reference to another thread)

It's really interesting what you can do with a plastic popcorn container, some aluminum foil, a couple of screws, a few pieces of wood, and a 50 thousand volt power supply! :-)

Since this motor does not use a magnetic field, it is very light weight, making it a likely candidate to be used in space where the weight of the payload makes all the difference.
Also, the input power to the 50kV generator is a good fit for solar applications. For this particular model, the voltage supply was only 12V at about 9 Amps ... A 100Watt panel would work just fine with similar results you see in the video.

This is a high speed Electrostatic Corona motor. This motor was made from a plastic popcorn container, where aluminum adhesive tape was placed on the the inside walls. The "ribs" alternate in polarity with a voltage of about 50kV. The theory of operation creates a standing electrostatic field alternating polarity between each rib, thus the number of ribs needs to be an even number. Assuming we start with a negative rib, electrons are deposited on the plastic surface of the container and repel the negative rib. At the same time they are repelling the negative rib they are attracted to the next adjacent positive rib where they are removed from the plastic surface. This leaves the plastic surface under the positive rib with a positive charge, likewise repelling the positive rib and being attracted to the next adjacent negative rib where the process starts all over again. The metal foil inside the tube takes on a charge equal to half of the voltage supply and can be modeled as two capacitors in series with regard to the HV supply terminals. The "center" terminal of the two series capacitors IS the metal foil on the inside of the container.

A slight angle on the rib blade (just a thin edge of the aluminum foil) ensures that the motor will spin in a particular direction on start-up.

The severe arching is because we made some improvements to the Fly-back driver. The supply power to the Fly-back circuit is 12V at about 9 Amps. Under normal circumstances the motor does not arc, except for start-up. See my other video with the same motor being powered with about 30kV. The supply power to that video is 22.2V at about 5 Amps. Improvements were made for this video warranting a new Corona motor design in the near future. :-)

Other video using a 30kV power supply and a less efficient power transfer to the Fly-back transformer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV1hH56cdcM

Comments

  • ercoerco Posts: 20,256
    edited 2015-01-07 08:37
    Very cool! Just watch out for X-ray radiation from the flyback transformer.

    Said the safety-minded guy who builds flamethrowers into everything. :)

    Now you have me wondering how to make a "Corona" motor out of a glass beer bottle. Lime-powered, natch.
  • Beau SchwabeBeau Schwabe Posts: 6,566
    edited 2015-01-07 09:01
    erco,

    A little bit of 3-D printing to hold the bottle centered and you should be good to go. Minus the "ship in a bottle" scenario on how your going to get the inside lined with aluminum foil. As far as lime powered.... ehhh... that would be a lot of limes! :-)

    What's crazy scary is that the primary of the FBT only has 6-turns of wire center tapped, and the MOSFETS run cool without a heat sink even after extended periods of operation. Also, that amount of power being unleashed is about half of what powers a typical laptop computer.
  • Duane DegnDuane Degn Posts: 10,588
    edited 2015-01-07 10:05
    When I first saw the video link I thought you were just sharing a fun YouTube find. It took me a few seconds to realize you had built the motor. Very cool!

    Thanks for sharing it with us.
  • User NameUser Name Posts: 1,451
    edited 2015-01-07 22:09
    erco wrote: »
    Very cool! Just watch out for X-ray radiation from the flyback transformer.

    X-rays from a flyback transformer? Never heard of such a thing. X-rays from a high voltage rectifier tube...sure. Even from a CRT. But not the transformer.
  • Beau SchwabeBeau Schwabe Posts: 6,566
    edited 2015-01-07 23:52
    The biggest concern is Ozone being produced. Ohh, and never look at the spark.

    Under normal circumstances this motor is only supposed to arc like that upon initial start up.
    It was severely being over-driven due to the increase efficiency redesign of the power supply.

    ...However given my latest job predicament, a little radiation might do me some good.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2015-01-08 02:27
    The fly back transformer is not the issue as such. But electrons smashing into materials over a gap with a potential of over about 30KV across it is. From wikipedia:

    As with any vacuum tube, there is a cathode, which emits electrons into the vacuum and an anode to collect the electrons, thus establishing a flow of electrical current, known as the beam, through the tube. A high voltage power source, for example 30 to 150 kilovolts (kV), is connected across cathode and anode to accelerate the electrons. The X-ray spectrum depends on the anode material and the accelerating voltage.[4]

    Are the x rays from this corona motor enough to worry about, I doubt it.
  • ajwardajward Posts: 1,130
    edited 2015-01-08 03:25
    erco wrote: »

    Wonder how much BED he's receiving? ;-)

    Amanda
  • Mark_TMark_T Posts: 1,981
    edited 2015-01-10 07:29
    "like candidate for use in space" - no, clearly not!

    Electrostatic motors are already hypotesized for use in space without all that lossy discharge they can even be efficient. http://revolution-green.com/high-power-electrostatic-motor-95-efficency/
  • GordonMcCombGordonMcComb Posts: 3,366
    edited 2015-01-10 09:52
    Heater. wrote: »
    Are the x rays from this corona motor enough to worry about, I doubt it.

    Probably not much, but there is enough UV to be a concern, which is why Beau recommended not looking at the spark. There's a reason arc welders wear long sleeve shirts (sunburn), face mask, and goggles.
  • Duane DegnDuane Degn Posts: 10,588
    edited 2015-01-10 13:36
    Probably not much, but there is enough UV to be a concern, which is why Beau recommended not looking at the spark. There's a reason arc welders wear long sleeve shirts (sunburn), face mask, and goggles.

    I thought you were being overly cautious when you warned me about looking at the spark back when I played with a spark gap ignitor.

    You were very correct about the possible harm from the UV light. My eyes hurt like the dickens for most of the night.

    I don't think my skin burned (and my skin starts to burn immediately in the sun).
  • Beau SchwabeBeau Schwabe Posts: 6,566
    edited 2015-01-10 13:45
    Mark T - See post number 7 "...It was severely being over-driven due to the increase efficiency redesign of the power supply. " - We are aware of this and understand, however the video of the overpowered motor does not do it justice for the sparks. This was not just one or two sparks here and there and in one location, they were all over the motor in many different locations. Lot's of power flying around there that I wanted to show off as well as the WOW factor in the video.... the Decibel level was quite impressive also.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2015-01-11 01:11
    I'm surprised UV is an issue. I would have thought the UV power emitted here was a lot less than one would get from sunlight on Bondi beach on Christmas day. Perhaps on the level of those UV tubes in bug zappers.

    Still, better to be cautious, UV scorched eyes is like having ground glass poured onto you eyeballs and can go on for days. Don't ask how I know, it was too stupid.
  • Mark_TMark_T Posts: 1,981
    edited 2015-01-11 10:30
    Mark T - See post number 7 "...It was severely being over-driven due to the increase efficiency redesign of the power supply. " - We are aware of this and understand, however the video of the overpowered motor does not do it justice for the sparks. This was not just one or two sparks here and there and in one location, they were all over the motor in many different locations. Lot's of power flying around there that I wanted to show off as well as the WOW factor in the video.... the Decibel level was quite impressive also.

    My point is that corona discharge, the means charge is transferred on and off insulators in air, doesn't
    work in a hard vacuum because its the breakdown of air into ions that carries the charge. Anyway you don't
    want discharge at all in an efficient electrostatic motor, just charge moving around the surface of conductors.
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