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DATA I/O 60A help — Parallax Forums

DATA I/O 60A help

TCTC Posts: 1,019
edited 2014-10-21 22:14 in General Discussion
Hello all,

I know this is posting not for a parallax product, but I know there are some amazing people here that give great advice.

I acquired a DATA I/O 60A from a swap meet. I powered it up, and the display said "SYSTEM OK", but the buttons did not work. Since I do not want vintage electronics to be forgotten I decided to try to fix it. I had to put it to the side because of some family troubles.

Finally, I could get back to it and see if I could figure out what is wrong. I powered it back up, and now the display says "SYSTEM EPROM ERR". After checking the maintenance manual it is saying it detected the wrong revision level of installed software, and that I should contact a DATA I/O service center. But there is none.

I used the prop to read the 4 EPROMs and since I don't know exactly what I am looking at, I looked for things that looked wrong. I am seeing a lot of locations that have $00 in them. So I am assuming the data is corrupt.

Google did not pull up anything that could offer help. That brings me to the forums.

~~~> Does anyone have any advice, or help?

I don't want to keep it around not working, because that would just give me the push I need to use it for parts. And I don't want to do that. Heck, I would give it away if someone would promise that it would not be lost or destroyed, but that person would have to pay for shipping.

Thanks
TC

** EDIT **

Forgot to add EPROM data I pulled
324-0065-007 C.txt
324-0065-006 C.txt
324-0065-004 C.txt
324-0065-008 C.txt
txt
txt
324-0065-008 C.txt
240K
txt
txt
324-0065-007 C.txt
240K
txt
txt
324-0065-006 C.txt
240K
txt
txt
324-0065-004 C.txt
240K

Comments

  • kwinnkwinn Posts: 8,697
    edited 2014-09-16 14:25
    Locations with 00 do not necessarily indicate that the data is corrupted. While eprom data may fade over time those erased locations generally contain FF, not 00. A lot of the embedded systems from that era would run a power up diagnostic that read the eprom and produced a check sum or crc check for verifying that the eprom was good. All it took to fail that test was for one bit to be bad.

    The only way to be sure is to compare the eproms to known good ones or a backup file.
  • GadgetmanGadgetman Posts: 2,436
    edited 2014-09-16 15:16
    Blocks of FF doesn't have to indicate a 'faded' area, either...

    burning takes time...
    And when you erase an EPROM, all cells are set to '1'. So it's common to set unused Bytes to FF to save the effort of burning anything into those locations.
  • TCTC Posts: 1,019
    edited 2014-09-16 15:46
    kwinn wrote: »
    Locations with 00 do not necessarily indicate that the data is corrupted. While eprom data may fade over time those erased locations generally contain FF, not 00. A lot of the embedded systems from that era would run a power up diagnostic that read the eprom and produced a check sum or crc check for verifying that the eprom was good. All it took to fail that test was for one bit to be bad.

    I wondered how it was able to tell if the EPROM was bad.

    The only way to be sure is to compare the eproms to known good ones or a backup file.

    That is the main problem. As of yet, I have not found anything or anyone that would have the EPROM data so I could compare what I have.

    Gadgetman wrote: »
    Blocks of FF doesn't have to indicate a 'faded' area, either...

    burning takes time...
    And when you erase an EPROM, all cells are set to '1'. So it's common to set unused Bytes to FF to save the effort of burning anything into those locations.

    Would there be a way to tell if a location is "faded" without having anything to compare it to? (I am thinking not)
  • Beau SchwabeBeau Schwabe Posts: 6,566
    edited 2014-09-16 16:12
    "Would there be a way to tell if a location is "faded" without having anything to compare it to? (I am thinking not) " - A forensic approach is to read the EEPROM several times at different temperature points .... also at different current points by varying the supplied amount of operating current to the EEPROM.

    OR... you might get lucky with a blast of canned air (upside down) ... be sure and save the data that you are able to read in. Once you have a valid EEPROM image, you can sometimes re-vive the EEPROM with a re-program. Depending on the age however it might be better to replace the old EEPROM with a newer one.
  • TCTC Posts: 1,019
    edited 2014-09-16 16:36
    Beau Schwabe (Parallax) wrote: »
    Once you have a valid EEPROM image

    If I use the prop, where it constantly reads the EPROM, and compares each location with the last read, would the data stabilize? or would it fluctuate?
  • NWCCTVNWCCTV Posts: 3,629
    edited 2014-09-16 19:06
    I don't know what it is, but that thing is cool looking!!!!
  • kwinnkwinn Posts: 8,697
    edited 2014-09-17 03:21
    TC wrote: »
    If I use the prop, where it constantly reads the EPROM, and compares each location with the last read, would the data stabilize? or would it fluctuate?

    It depends on whether the problem is an intermittent or solid one, but it's worth a try. The difficult part is determining which read is correct, particularly if you get several different results and more than one eprom is bad.
  • TCTC Posts: 1,019
    edited 2014-09-17 12:11
    NWCCTV wrote: »
    I don't know what it is, but that thing is cool looking!!!!

    I completely agree with you, to me this thing looks awesome. That is why I can't have it sitting around non-functional
    kwinn wrote: »
    It depends on whether the problem is an intermittent or solid one, but it's worth a try. The difficult part is determining which read is correct, particularly if you get several different results and more than one eprom is bad.

    That is what I am afraid of. I sent an email to the person that has the operational manual, and the service manual on his website. I hope he can offer a way to either copy his EPROMs, or get the data so I can compare with what I have.
  • PublisonPublison Posts: 12,366
    edited 2014-09-17 12:36
    TC wrote: »
    Hello all,

    I know this is posting not for a parallax product, but I know there are some amazing people here that give great advice.

    I acquired a DATA I/O 60A from a swap meet. I powered it up, and the display said "SYSTEM OK", but the buttons did not work. Since I do not want vintage electronics to be forgotten I decided to try to fix it. I had to put it to the side because of some family troubles.

    Finally, I could get back to it and see if I could figure out what is wrong. I powered it back up, and now the display says "SYSTEM EPROM ERR". After checking the maintenance manual it is saying it detected the wrong revision level of installed software, and that I should contact a DATA I/O service center. But there is none.

    I used the prop to read the 4 EPROMs and since I don't know exactly what I am looking at, I looked for things that looked wrong. I am seeing a lot of locations that have $00 in them. So I am assuming the data is corrupt.

    Google did not pull up anything that could offer help. That brings me to the forums.

    ~~~> Does anyone have any advice, or help?

    I don't want to keep it around not working, because that would just give me the push I need to use it for parts. And I don't want to do that. Heck, I would give it away if someone would promise that it would not be lost or destroyed, but that person would have to pay for shipping.

    Thanks
    TC

    ** EDIT **

    Forgot to add EPROM data I pulled
    324-0065-007 C.txt
    324-0065-006 C.txt
    324-0065-004 C.txt
    324-0065-008 C.txt

    I can burn some new Eproms with the data in the text's. You just have to tell me the number on the EPROMs. (16K, 32K) ?
  • TCTC Posts: 1,019
    edited 2014-09-17 12:48
    Publison wrote: »
    I can burn some new Eproms with the data in the text's. You just have to tell me the number on the EPROMs. (16K, 32K) ?

    What is in the text, is what I pulled from the EPROMs. I don't know if the data is corrupt or not.

    The part number on the EPROMs is " AM27128ADC".
  • PublisonPublison Posts: 12,366
    edited 2014-09-17 13:03
    Those are 16Kx8 EPROMs.

    I thought you got the text files from an archive site, so I don't know if they will work. We can try.

    Next to fire up the old (1996) programmer computer to see if IT still work.
  • PublisonPublison Posts: 12,366
    edited 2014-09-17 13:12
    Are there any labels on the EPROM's ? That might lead to a Google search for the source code.
  • TCTC Posts: 1,019
    edited 2014-09-17 13:20
    Publison wrote: »
    Are there any labels on the EPROM's ? That might lead to a Google search for the source code.

    The filenames I posted are the labels that are on each EPROM. I tried Google, but I did not have any luck. But I also don't know all the tricks to make Google only search for what I want.
  • TCTC Posts: 1,019
    edited 2014-09-17 13:24
    And now when I search for the label number, I get a link to this thread...:smile:
  • TCTC Posts: 1,019
    edited 2014-09-18 12:26
    I might have someone who has another 60A, and this person could be willing to copy the EPROMs. But I am having trouble finding compatible replacements for the "AM27128ADC" EPROMs I have.

    Would anyone have any suggestions on a good equivalent EPROM, that would not force me to eat ramen noodle soup for the next 6 months? I have seen EPROMs with a price tag of over $100USD

    Thanks
    TC
  • RDL2004RDL2004 Posts: 2,554
    edited 2014-09-18 12:56
    Did you try eBay? I don't know if this is the best deal, but it came up first in a Google search.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/AM27128ADC-VINTAGE-IC-COLLECTIBLE-AMD-EPROM-27128-/390117298784

    Maybe you can make a deal for a quantity purchase.
  • TCTC Posts: 1,019
    edited 2014-09-18 13:33
    RDL2004 wrote: »
    Did you try eBay? I don't know if this is the best deal, but it came up first in a Google search.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/AM27128ADC-VINTAGE-IC-COLLECTIBLE-AMD-EPROM-27128-/390117298784

    Maybe you can make a deal for a quantity purchase.

    When I searched Google, all I got were hack-sites that just offered dead ends. I never thought of eBay. I messaged the seller to see if they would offer a guarantee that the EPROMs would functionally work. I am just waiting for a responce, and a responce from the person that has the data I need.

    Thanks
    TC
  • PublisonPublison Posts: 12,366
    edited 2014-09-18 13:49
    RDL2004 wrote: »
    Did you try eBay? I don't know if this is the best deal, but it came up first in a Google search.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/AM27128ADC-VINTAGE-IC-COLLECTIBLE-AMD-EPROM-27128-/390117298784

    Maybe you can make a deal for a quantity purchase.

    Not a bad price. I bet he would ship 4 for 5.95.
  • PublisonPublison Posts: 12,366
    edited 2014-09-18 13:52
    TC wrote: »
    And now when I search for the label number, I get a link to this thread...:smile:

    I'm guessing that would be nadda, blank ?

    I've got four 27128's that I can program for you, but do you know if the .txt files that you posted are good?
  • RDL2004RDL2004 Posts: 2,554
    edited 2014-09-18 14:03
    Just so you know for future use, to search a specific site from Google: 
    site:ebay.com am27128adc

    I hardly use eBay's search, since they ruined "improved" it several years ago.

    Futurlec also sells similar eproms if you don't mind a potentially long wait for them to ship.

    http://futurlec.com/ICEPROM.shtml
  • PublisonPublison Posts: 12,366
    edited 2014-09-18 14:17
    They can be found at Arcade Game repair shops and Jameco.
  • evanhevanh Posts: 15,921
    edited 2014-09-18 15:13
    324-0065-008 C.txt looks like it's a 16bit lookup table of some sort. Endianess is big, which suits the 6800. So, nothing obviously wrong there. A disassembly of the other ROMs might help decide on their condition.

    You are likely just dealing with bad contacts. Cleaning connectors and maybe replacing the ROM sockets would be in order.
  • TCTC Posts: 1,019
    edited 2014-09-19 05:53
    Publison wrote: »
    I'm guessing that would be nadda, blank ?

    I've got four 27128's that I can program for you, but do you know if the .txt files that you posted are good?

    I dont know if the files are good or not. But if you want to I would be willing to try and see if that fixes the problem.

    evanh wrote: »
    324-0065-008 C.txt looks like it's a 16bit lookup table of some sort. Endianess is big, which suits the 6800. So, nothing obviously wrong there. A disassembly of the other ROMs might help decide on their condition.

    You are likely just dealing with bad contacts. Cleaning connectors and maybe replacing the ROM sockets would be in order.

    I will have to check/try that out. I did not think of that. Thanks
  • fredbugfredbug Posts: 3
    edited 2014-10-18 00:21
    Hi,
    I found this thread looking for manuals for my 60a. I just used it
    to read some pals so it is working. my roms are labeled,

    324-0065-078
    324-0065-079
    324-0065-080
    324-0065-081

    date is 1989. if it would help I can read these out in a few days.

    Bruce
  • TCTC Posts: 1,019
    edited 2014-10-18 08:53
    fredbug wrote: »
    Hi,
    I found this thread looking for manuals for my 60a. I just used it
    to read some pals so it is working. my roms are labeled,

    324-0065-078
    324-0065-079
    324-0065-080
    324-0065-081

    date is 1989. if it would help I can read these out in a few days.

    Bruce

    That would be great!! Thank you so much. And welcome to the forums, everyone on here is just like family.
  • PublisonPublison Posts: 12,366
    edited 2014-10-18 09:41
    fredbug wrote: »
    Hi,
    I found this thread looking for manuals for my 60a. I just used it
    to read some pals so it is working. my roms are labeled,

    324-0065-078
    324-0065-079
    324-0065-080
    324-0065-081

    date is 1989. if it would help I can read these out in a few days.

    Bruce

    Welcome to the forum, and thanks for the help!

    If you could get the code in Motorola S format, I can blow some EPROM's for TC.
  • fredbugfredbug Posts: 3
    edited 2014-10-21 05:45
    I just took a few minutes to pull one of my eproms. My programmer identified
    it as a 27512. A closer look shows me its a 27513 page mode eprom. Are
    all of yours 27128 eproms? I appear to have 3 27513 and one I am not sure.
    I'll look into it this evening, I just got off work and need a nap.

    Bruce
  • MrBi11MrBi11 Posts: 117
    edited 2014-10-21 22:14
    That is a discontinued model and was turned over to Memory & Logic Programming in Newport VA
    There phone # is: (802)334-6088
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