The "Giant Killer" - China's own computer OS
LoopyByteloose
Posts: 12,537
And today, I opened the local newpaper to claims that China has announced it will deliver its own OS in October -- independent of Unix/Linux, Android, Chrome, Windows, or Apple. Apparently China banned Windows 8 in May.
It may indeed be a giant killer, but which giant?
http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/digital-living/60839734/china-targets-own-computer-operating-system
It may indeed be a giant killer, but which giant?
http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/digital-living/60839734/china-targets-own-computer-operating-system
Comments
Banning Windows as a safety measure is a move all governments should have taken years ago. Like they do for other dangerous imports.
They got a little ticked off at Microsoft because of them dropping support for Windows XP.
The estimated percentage of computers running XP in China typically ranges from 60 to 95%
Of course, former Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer, "reportedly told employees in 2011 that, because of piracy, Microsoft earned less revenue in China than in the Netherlands even though computer sales matched those of the United States." (quote from Reuters)
It's just not tenable to run your world on an old, obsolete, unsupported, closed source operating system.
It's not tenable to shovel billions of dollars out of your country to a foreign power to get yet another closed source operating system which in turn will become old, obsolete, unsupported and require shoveling more billions of dollars out of the country to replace...Ad infinitum.
Heck, I'm not even sure it's tenable back in the USA in the long run.
What to do?
Clearly trying to create your own OS and computing infrastructure and shake off the shackles of dependence on the NSA...sorry USA... is an attractive idea.
Can they pull it off? No idea. Might be a plan just to use the existing Linux based operating systems and set a few thousand of their brightest minds on fixing up Wine so that it runs everything they would otherwise be running under XP.
If it were all as simple as China just wanting its own OS, I wouldn't worry. But the trends with Russia and China these days are toward separation from the rest of the world and renewing an old alignment similar to the Iron Curtain/Bamboo Curtain days.
There is simply a desire to detach from the trend toward a world community ruled by international laws in a fair manner for everyone. It is pretty obvious what is going on when tpermanent members of the UN Security Council stall while populations suffer destabilization and die. There is a different and less enlightened agenda being imposed on innocent people.
For instance, China and Russia recently announced the creation of an alternative to the World Bank to be based in Shanghai as alternative for countries that don't exactly pay nice with their finances -- like Cuba Argentina and Venezuela.
And then there is the trans-Russian gas pipeline that supposedly was going to provide Japan with energy, but 'just happens' to pass withing a few hundred miles of Beijing. The deal with Japan never came through since Russia and Japan have never actually made a peace settlement over WWII and Stalin taking Japan's northern most islands in the closing days of the war. But of course, Beijing has signed a long-term energy supply with Russia that will take up the slack since the Ukraine crisis is affecting European demand.
And then there is China's pride and joy, the Liaoning aircraft carrier that was sold by Russia to be used as a floating nightclub by China.
And Russia has recently revived its relationship with Cuba and written off a substantial about of debt owed by Cuba while committing to an on-going mission in the country indefinitely.
So there is a lot of back and forth with say one thing and do something else.
Heater, you are free to comment. But just maybe Finland will have to begin to worry once again about Russia trying to expand territory, seeking mineral wealth and off-shore resources. The long-term trend seems to be yet another Cold War of sorts with fronts fought in cyberspace, banking, and the world's economies.
Meanwhile, I have no idea what might happen to me in Taiwan. Of course, if the takeover of Macao and Hong Kong (which was supposed to have 50 years of independent rule) is any indication, the prognosis is not good.
As far as the Windows near monopoly. MS isn't forcing people to use their OS and several alternatives exist. There's even the ReactOS project which has an alpha quality Windows XP compatible clone. If it was really something that concerned people they would switch.
But sadly, the fundamental issue is that China and Russia seem to be more interested in building their own empire and don't want to accept western values.
The XP mess is gone and done. It was a very wild ride and MS managed to pull 30% profits out of XP even when 99% of Asia was stealing the OS. Bill Gates doesn't even own the major portion of shares in MS and Steve Ballmer seems more into his new basketball team than MS. Both have pretty much segued to being established mainstream American wealth. It is no longer about the technology. The simple fact that the new Nokia phones with MS logo are Linux OS says it all.
In sum, the computer OS market has matured. And China and Russia are thinking about other things of broader political scope.
Of course it is not true, MS has done it's best to force usage of Windows. Giving away IE for free to kill Netscape (and cheating the original developers in the process), making deals with vendors of PCs, laptops and other hardware. Buttering up state and local governments everywhere and so on and so on.
You probably know all this already.
They do?
Currently the big jump as been from Windows to Mac. From one closed system to another. Great.
Half-baked clones don't cut it yet. Although I'm really happy LTSpice runs under wine
It's always puzzled me why it does not bother people.
Same could be said about smoking. Used to be a big thing. Despite all the warnings people smoked anyway. Today it's pretty much banned and socially unacceptable everywhere.
People learn, laws harden, times change.
Anyway MS just fired the 12000 people in Finland that may have been supporting such an effort so I guess it's dead by now.
If it was Clive Sinclair instead of Bill Gates and England rather than the U.S., would you protest so much?
I just wonder because your distain for MS comes up in as far as I can tell every OS discussion.
C.W.
Try to read the doc in Libreoffice. If that doesn't work send the document back and ask the person to send it in an open format. In the US it is possible, and easy to buy a PC or Laptop with Linux preinstalled. You can also buy a Chromebook and dual boot it with Linux as well. Technically ChromeOS counts as an open OS because it is Linux with the Chromium browser on top.
People doing what's easy is not the same thing as compulsive force.
Yes, MS used predatory behaviors from around 1988 to 1998. But the US government smacked MS with a lawsuit in 1998, and got a consent decree 13 years ago; MS hasn't been the same company since. Part of the reason we see a resurgent Apple, and a rising Google, is MS had to cease their anti-competitive abuses. If the MS of the 90's was still around we'd be using ZunePhones and ZunePads. The current Windows monopoly is really a desktop OS momentum that's slowly fading.
Update: Here's a link to Microcenter selling a Linux box with Ubuntu preinstalled:
http://www.microcenter.com/product/429187/N108_Desktop_Computer
My argument's about dependence on a single supplier and the folly of relying on closed source software apply to Sinclair and anyone else as much as MS. I'm afraid you have not been understanding what I have been writing. Perhaps I have not expressed myself very clearly.
My disdain for MS and IBM started that day in 1981 we opened up the first IBM PC in the company, about one of the first in Britain, and saw how crude it and it's operating system was. A young coworker commented that day that "IBM always holds up the progress of computing by 10 years" and so it was. It was ten years between the launch of the 32 bit Intel 386 and the general availability of a 32 bit OS and applications! Why because of that MS lock-in that was in place with everybody.
However that is a side issue. The main point is that trap of dependency on a single supplier the world fell into. It still bites me today. Just last week I had to sign up with box.com in order to collaborate with a company in California. Guess what? There is no Linux client for folder/directory sharing with box.com. WTF? A cloud service that is OS dependent, thanks.
I always thought the government actions against MS were a bit of joke. Hardly making any difference to MS at all. We can only hope so.
By the way, why are people so quick to defend MS, sometime vigorously? Weird.
Update: Last thing I would ever buy is a machine with Ubuntu installed. Unless they can let me have it cheaper without
Here is a link...
http://www.zdnet.com/hello-ms-android-good-bye-windows-phone-7000026774/
Fired 12000 people? I have perpetual job security via English teaching in Taiwan, plus a low cost of living and good medical and dental insurance.
+++++++++++++++=
BTW, the real lock in MS Office is Excel, not Word. If all your accounting is in Excel and your customers accept billings and accounting Excel or your line of credit with the bank depends on bank auditors that use Excel, LibreOffice is dead in the water.
I do use LibreCalc, but I don't have to share files with anyone.
Asians simply learned MS Office with a huge language barrier struggle and they fear that if they use LInux, they will have the same horrific experience all over again. It may not be true, but fear is a powerful marketing tool.
++++++
Hmmm.... I wonder if China realizes how much fear of retraining has locked users into MS. It will be interesting to see what happens.
The pre-personal-computer Chinese office accounting system was quite something to behold. Tons of stamps, bundles of cards tied together with shoe laces as a filing system, and of course, and abacus for a calculator. I loved the quait clutter of it all. Stationary stores were doing well in 1994, but now that is all gone.
Maybe there is scope for 12000 Finnish language teachers in Taiwan
I'm sure I read that the MS Android phone was cancelled recently. Still can't find the link.
The sick thing is that MS is collecting 2 billion dollars per year in patent license fees from Android vendors. God knows what for.
Exporting reindeer meatballs might be a good solution.
Frankly, I think MS is too late to the cellular telephone as well. I like Nokia. I even made a lot of money on Nokia stock at one time.
My gut feeling is Linux/Unix will survive everything. But there will be the majority of people that want to use while not understanding computers. Let's just say they like the mystery... too many tedious details bore them. Steve Jobs knew the type and how they spent their money. Just make it a bit naughty and sexy.. don't get serious.
is contradicted by this statement:
If there was a near monopoly before, and now there are choices, it is likely the government action did have an effect.
In my case it's because I can't stand complaints that sound like this: "the food at this restaurant is terrible, and the portions are too small."
Those choices: ChromeOS, Android, various Linux distros, all kind of other stuff, came about because of the efforts of Richard Stallman (GCC), Linus Torvalds (Linux) and a cast of thousands over many years building up Free and/or Open Source software. Many of them seeing the problems we have gotten ourselves into and wanting to dig their way out of it. Even Apple operating systems are based on large swathes of Open Source software.
It is the hard work and dedication of multitudes that has created those choices not the flea bite intervention of governments.
Helped a long of course by the fact that many corporations have realized the hole they were getting deeper and deeper into and have contributed greatly to the Open Source efforts. They have seen that it is better for them to work together, help build and share such infrastructure especially if software is not really their core business.
Do my complaints sound like that?
Yes, but I sound like that when I'm complaining about JavaScript.
I don't understand. What commercial market?
I have been using Linux based machines exclusively since 1997. Pretty much all developers I have worked with since then have been using Linux or, sadly increasingly today, Macs (Often both). All the products I have worked on since then, embedded systems and otherwise have used Linux based operating systems. None of the distros I have used have ever asked for money. Although I have paid for boxed sets of Red Hat CDs in the past. On quite a few occasions I have downloaded all required sources from the kernel up from many places and built operating systems for myself [ * ]
We did at one point pay a software house specializing in Linux a lot of money to write some device drivers for Infinion DSL chips, which we subsequently fed back to the Linux kernel devs. That company was not in the software business they just needed the hardware they had designed to work, so paying to create Free drivers was not a loss, in fact it's a gain as those drivers then get contributions from others around the world.
I complain that ""the food at this restaurant is terrible, and the portions are too small." if I ever find myself having to go to a French restaurant. Those guys serve up microscopic amounts of "food" very artistically painted on to the plate and charge a fortune [ ** ]. It would be ore nourishing and filling to eat a work by Jackson Pollock. I have sometimes found myself having to gross out on a Big Mac and fries on the way home from such events!
Let's not start on JavaScript. Although as far as I know it is the only programming language you get with a Windows install out of the box! At least they get something right
Notes:
* Don't do that today. There are easier ways to get collections of sources and build systems. Like gentoo, buildroot, openwrt, whatever.
** Hmmm...sounds like Windows does it not?
That is true. That is also true. In many cases.
During the day I am part of a "corporation". I have also been part of the buying support and consulting part of the equation. As I mentioned above. Of course that is a different world to the Windows model. We might pay to get Linux up on new in house designed hardware in a hurry or to get some new drivers written. That than all gets released as Free software and may find it's way back into the kernel or other upstream sources. We are happy, the world gets something useful, life is good. That is just a sick aberration in the modern word. Especially prevalent in the USA. I don't know any company around here that has ever worried about that. By the way when has that ever actually happened? Are there cases of patent trolls suing RedHat or MontaVista or Linaro or whoever? It's all good food for lawyers anyway I guess. Yep. In our small way we do the same. We build the OS, we get the drivers written, we release the code, we make our money on the hardware. Even that is not the main point our business is a a higher level of service to our customers, the particulars of the OS and the hardware are just a means to an end.
Oh, did I mention, our application code is very closed....:)
Yes and the licensing fees are in the billions. Two of those patent holders suing other companies are called Apple and Microsoft:
http://venturebeat.com/2012/11/13/in-2013-apple-and-microsoft-could-make-600-more-from-android-than-google/
Oracle will eventually be the third company to ride this gravy train because they own all of Sun's IP. The recent Oracle Google lawsuit being one example, but I wouldn't be shocked if they follow that with other lawsuits.
This free software is getting pretty expensive for Samsung, HTC, and Google.
I'd call you a hypocrite for calling for an open source OS while making money off a closed source application, but that's pretty much everyone's business model. Those guys who built Linux frankly gave away their labor to subsidize tons of corporations.
I like to think of the operating system as part of the infrastructure of computing, much like the power, water, and gas distribution along with our roads and highways are the infrastructure of our civilization. Together they allow businesses to make money by providing goods and services to the members of that civilization.
Having that infrastructure controlled by a corporation or small group is one of the worst scenarios I can think of.
You are right. I retract my statement about "sick aberration in the modern word". It's been here for ages. Back when the industrial revolution was kicking off and James Watt and others were building the first steam engines there were plenty of people trying to grab a slice of the action and they had dumb Smile patents to fight with even then.
When James Watt wanted to adapt his engines from driving pumps to driving other machines he had to translate linear motion into circular. He could not do that the obvious way as some dick brain had a patent on using a crank shaft on a steam engine. So James Watt, refusing to license such nonsense, had to build "sun and planet" gear systems to do it. Does this sound familiar? It should.
Historians observed that this kind of patent squabble held up development of steam power by ten or twenty years, and that I read in a book on the history of steam that itself was written over a hundred years ago! (Wish I could find a link for you). You might be right. Not my choice. I cut code and other solutions for a salary. What happens to it is something else. The company owns the code.
There is a point here though. Many companies are at the same time using and contributing to the Open Source "pool" of code whilst at the same time keeping their secret source closed. Apple and Google are premier examples.
For example both Apple and Google contribute effort to LLVM/Clang, they both benefit from the work done. It is no skin off their noses if it is out there for free. That is not their main core business, just oil for the wheels. Perhaps.
I think you are missing a rather large point though. A huge amount of what is Linux, what is Free and Open Source Software, is created and supported by corporations, like IBM, like Google, like Apple and a thousands of others, for their own greedy self interest. They realize that for a lot of this infrastructure stuff it's better they pool their resources to get what they need. No contracts, no licensing, no money changing hands just share the code and move on.
There are many thousands of open source developers working for such corporations and collecting their salaries.
It's not made by lone geeks working for free in their moms basements as myth would have it.
Not sure why they should translate it to the finish language?, @Heater might know... (sorry for the stupid pun)
I do not think this would be a move done by China. Them think in longer terms as (cooperate) western governments. IF they do that then they will not bind themselves to Microsoft. I am not even sure they will bind themselves to Linux.
China and its influence is growing fast. OK you can say it does not really matter, but they represent 3/5 (or more?) of the world population. Evolving as fast as America did in the 40s to 60s.
Quite unusual I have to agree with @Loopy. We are facing some interesting changes, now that Russia, China and some other entities are setting up a gold based international current system independent of the so called western system.
It may be that @Loopy is more sensible for things like that, since he is not just living there but thru his occupation of teaching English and learning Chinese able to grasp the different mentalities between east and west better than I do.
But overall we (western) people will be (are?) faced with a stunning point. We may be meaningless in a couple of years. 250 million Americans or 250 million Europeans are just a district compared to 4+ billion people under Chinese government.
worried!
Mike
yes. you got me. I did not look it up. My guess was certainly wrong. Sorry.
Still 250 million is just another district for china. Easy to handle.
Are this American billions or non imperial ones?
Enjoy!
Mike
1) I can't imagine what you were expecting. Another PET? Another Sinclair? The original PC seemed to me to be just about what it should have been. And it seemed to improve at a nice pace, too. Far better, for example than the original Macintosh which was promptly orphaned by Apple. I'm sorry your stratospheric expectations were dashed. Is that IBM's fault?
2) 30-something years later, you're still grinding an axe?
3) Bill Gates was/is a whole lot like you and me, only a lot more successful. He is most certainly not the Evil Empire, personified.
4) Just two days ago, we read all about how IBM disappointed you. I think you're starting to sound like Loopy and his Cubie board. Actually not. He hasn't mentioned the Cubie in a while.
I've got the highest regard for you, Heater, but on this one point your kinda running long.