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Prop-2 Paradox — Parallax Forums

Prop-2 Paradox

tryittryit Posts: 72
edited 2014-08-07 04:46 in General Discussion
The last schedule for the Propeller-2 states "June - July: Submittal to foundry for fabrication". Question: is this schedule meant for 2015 or 2014? Or did Parallax abandon this chip because of economic forces (R-Pi and Arduino)? Don't give up.

http://www.parallax.com/news/2014-02-24/propeller-2-schedule-update-february-2014-read-schedule-completion-propeller-2
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Comments

  • SRLMSRLM Posts: 5,045
    edited 2014-07-28 06:08
    There's no paradox. Engineering just takes time, and Chip is working away. You can find the latest updates at this time in this thread:

    http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php/156005-Ruminations-while-awaiting-an-FPGA-image-(was-quot-Hello......-Anyone-out-there-quot-)?p=1280084&viewfull=1#post1280084

    ps: this should be in the Prop2 forum.
  • Dave HeinDave Hein Posts: 6,347
    edited 2014-07-28 06:33
    Yes, paradox is not the right word. There are other words I can think of that describe the P2 development project, but they aren't very complimentary, so I won't state them here. We can only hope that the 2014 schedule will actually occur in 2015, and not 2016 or some later year.
  • GenetixGenetix Posts: 1,754
    edited 2014-07-28 16:03
    Good engineering takes time and do you have any idea how much it would cost to make an engineering change later. Also, Parallax is not known for releasing products that have not been developed and tested. At this point it seems like it be at least a year so get some QuickStarts from Radio Shack while they are still available.
  • David BetzDavid Betz Posts: 14,516
    edited 2014-07-28 17:28
    I don't think anyone doubts that it takes a lot of work to design something like P1 or P2. My impression is that the original poster merely wanted to understand why a schedule was announced earlier in the year but not kept. I don't know how he found the page he quoted but if it's still available on the Parallax web site they might want to consider removing it since it obviously doesn't reflect current reality. The same probably applies to any official statements posted on the web site about the P2 feature set.
  • GenetixGenetix Posts: 1,754
    edited 2014-07-28 18:56
    From what I understand, the designer, Chip, ran into some issue after testing that required a total redesign. Someone else might know more about what he encountered that made him scrap the design and start over.
    It's not uncommon for engineering to go through several designs before all the bugs are worked out. There are companies though who would rather release something now and fix (or never fix) all the issues later.
  • Ken GraceyKen Gracey Posts: 7,392
    edited 2014-07-28 19:55
    tryit wrote: »
    The last schedule for the Propeller-2 states "June - July: Submittal to foundry for fabrication". Question: is this schedule meant for 2015 or 2014? Or did Parallax abandon this chip because of economic forces (R-Pi and Arduino)? Don't give up.

    http://www.parallax.com/news/2014-02-24/propeller-2-schedule-update-february-2014-read-schedule-completion-propeller-2

    In an effort to provide our customers with the most up-to-date progress we tell you what's true to the best of our abilities. We're simply trying to convey the most accurate picture of the schedule, at that time.

    There's no chance we'd abandon our efforts. Our company, customers, and efforts revolve around the Propeller.

    We will update the plan sooner than later, but everybody must understand it's simply a snapshot of our best estimates at the time.

    And, tryit, these kinds of questions are perfectly welcome around here. Don't let me or anybody else discourage you from asking these pointed questions that weigh on your mind. Chances are somebody else wants to know the same.

    Ken Gracey
  • tryittryit Posts: 72
    edited 2014-07-28 23:56
    Taking an idea from concept to the marketplace is certainly full of trials and tribulations. Several design cycles are necessary and budgets and schedules are affected. No doubt. However, this is not the issue.

    Once the schedule is released (again, link below), you are making a comittment to yourselves and your customers to follow through on that plan. This is a matter of integrity and a matter of following through on your promises.

    That said, I think the community is empathetic to your technical challenges, and the onus is on Parallax to update the published schedule and show the latest specs on a single page for your customers. The sooner the better. The "Propeller 2 Multicore Microcontroller" forum is too onerous at this point (although a link to it from the "snapshot" schedule is appropriate"). I think an update once a quarter or at least once every 6 months is reasonable. Good luck.

    http://www.parallax.com/news/2014-02-24/propeller-2-schedule-update-february-2014-read-schedule-completion-propeller-2
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2014-07-29 01:02
    I have been through product development projects a few times in my life.

    There is nothing more challenging or that takes more courage in business. One starts out thinking that something is a great idea whose time has come, then sets out a time frame that is somewhat optimistic, and finally has to live with the struggle toward 'any day now'.

    About all I can say is that whenever the Propeller Two arrives, I will certainly be interested in buying some. I am sure it will offer me chances to discover more than I could imagine... just as the BasicStamps, the SXes, and the Propeller have.

    In the meantime, the Propeller is still offering me a heck of a lot. I've set it aside several times, only to go back into it to learn Forth, GCC, and PASM.

    And now I am fooling with a wifi Propeller program-loader from a hacked WR703N with OpenWrt installed.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2014-07-29 02:29
    tryit,
    Once the schedule is released (again, link below), you are making a commitment to yourselves and your customers to follow through on that plan. This is a matter of integrity and a matter of following through on your promises.
    You are joking right?

    In my experience in the electronics/software industries pretty much most projects get cancelled. Conversely a fanatical devotion to releasing on a deadline results in corners being cut, testing being skipped etc etc. In general companies have no qualms about end of of lifing parts that you have just designed into your products and so on.

    Parallax is special. They told the world about the commencement of development of the PII. They discuss it's progress all the time. They have invited user input into it's feature set.

    Anyone following along with the P2 "conversation" knows all this. Anyone designing unreleased parts into new products is taking a big risk no matter who the vendor is.

    By the way, did Parallax ever make any kind of press release or official announcement of the P2 release date? All I have seen is chit chat on the forums as to how things are going, up, downs, about faces and all.
  • David BetzDavid Betz Posts: 14,516
    edited 2014-07-29 06:11
    Heater. wrote: »
    By the way, did Parallax ever make any kind of press release or official announcement of the P2 release date? All I have seen is chit chat on the forums as to how things are going, up, downs, about faces and all.
    The first message in this thread refers to a news item posted by Parallax with a schedule.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2014-07-29 06:46
    So it does Dave, looks like things are only running a little tweak late then.
  • David BetzDavid Betz Posts: 14,516
    edited 2014-07-29 06:51
    Heater. wrote: »
    So it does Dave, looks like things are only running a little tweak late then.
    By tweak I guess you mean changing 2014 to 2015?
    In any case, it seems like P2 is making good progress and that it will be quite useful once it finally appears.
  • Oldbitcollector (Jeff)Oldbitcollector (Jeff) Posts: 8,091
    edited 2014-07-29 08:37
    Hang in there mates! It'll happen eventually.

    There is still much to do with the existing Propeller we have. If you doubt this take a gander at the revived "..foothold in education" thread. That being said, I have much higher tolerance for the frustration voiced by those with higher post count. I share their fustration at times. Like myself, they have demonstrated their extreme patience in waiting for this product.

    Let's not forget that Parallax has allowed us into the "planning room", which is a privilage we don't see in other companies.

    Jeff
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2014-07-29 09:52
    David,

    The announcement linked to says "March - May: Core design complete"

    It's now nearly August. So that is only 3 or 4 tweaks late. Where a "tweak" is sort of like the week you tell your boss it it will take to tweak something into a working condition. Let's just say a "tweak" is a little bit flexible:)

    Given the current timespan of the PII project 3 or 4 tweaks is but the blinking of an eye.
  • GenetixGenetix Posts: 1,754
    edited 2014-07-29 18:55
    Is "feature creep" even an issue?
  • tryittryit Posts: 72
    edited 2014-07-29 23:09
    Heater. wrote: »
    You are joking right?

    It's only a joke if you think losing customers and credibility is funny.

    As a future customer, I am a bit disappointed. Not with the technical progress, but disappointed at the lack of coherent communication from Parallax in the form of a press release like the one below.

    http://www.parallax.com/news/2014-02-24/propeller-2-schedule-update-february-2014-read-schedule-completion-propeller-2

    What about the wikispace below, is that up to date?

    http://propeller.wikispaces.com/Propeller+II

    Will the propeller-2 be ready in time for Christmas sales? 2014?
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2014-07-30 01:16
    tryit,

    I'm not really sure what you are complaining about. I don't know what your definition of "coherent" is in this context but that press release from 2014-02 seems to spell out the plan clearly enough. Perhaps you expected more releases like than since then. But why? The release indicates a shipping date in December, that would be the time to look for more news. Most companies would not be issuing blow by blow accounts of development along the way in releases of that form. Most readers would take such releases with a pinch of salt knowing how easily project schedules slip.

    But Parallax is different, there has indeed been such "blow by blow" accounts of development going on in the Propeller II forum. Perhaps you are not aware of that. The fact that you have posted this question here makes indicates that is the case so here it is in all it's gory detail http://forums.parallax.com/forumdisplay.php/97-Propeller-2-Multicore-Microcontroller
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2014-07-30 01:53
    AFAIK, that development schedule was only available on the Parallax web site and cannot be described as a press release. As it is copyright, it should not have been reproduced elsewhere.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2014-07-30 02:57
    Leon,

    That's kind of subtle now a days.

    Any news site could write a huge front page article proclaiming how Parallax is releasing a super new Propeller for Christmas. And how we should all halt development on all our products that use other inferior micro-controllers. They would just put a link to that release at the bottom of the page.

    What I'm getting at is that copyright or not, that page from 2014-02 is a press release in every practical way.
  • GadgetmanGadgetman Posts: 2,436
    edited 2014-07-30 06:23
    What I notice about that February newsitem is this line:
    As it looks today, the schedule for Propeller 2’s completion is as follows:

    The first 4 words makes it pretty clear that this is an ESTIMATE, that it's not set in stone.

    Maybe they've written an updated estimate somewhere in the forum thread where the development is discussed?
    (I wouldn't know. I don't follow it. not enough hours in the day... or night... to read it, really. Also, a lot of the stuff is way over my head... )
  • $WMc%$WMc% Posts: 1,884
    edited 2014-07-30 18:28
    I was lead on and on for a couple of years with the Parallax WiFi project. So excited to here a release date They kept changing the release dates over and over. It was finally dropped and kicked to the curb.
    '
    Ya, I was a "sucka"
  • Ken GraceyKen Gracey Posts: 7,392
    edited 2014-07-30 22:35
    $WMc% wrote: »
    I was lead on and on for a couple of years with the Parallax WiFi project. So excited to here a release date They kept changing the release dates over and over. It was finally dropped and kicked to the curb.
    '
    Ya, I was a "sucka"

    Aw, come on there Walt! I think that more than being lead on you were informed of our design as it was underway. One of the drawbacks of being open with what we do is that when projects are not completed they're held against us.

    Your loss was no WiFi product; the loss to Parallax was two years of engineering.

    As for your needs, I bet they can be accomplished with the XBee WiFi - have you looked at it?

    And you ain't no "sucka" no matter what you call yourself.

    Now, have you heard of the Propeller 2 yet?

    Ken Gracey
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2014-07-31 03:23
    I would not fault Parallax for cancelling a WIFI project which probably seemed like a really good idea at the time it was started. I seriously doubt they could compete with this https://www.sparkfun.com/products/12820 from the mighty TI. Nor the other offerings that have become available. Nor be able to make significant added value to such devices.
  • $WMc%$WMc% Posts: 1,884
    edited 2014-07-31 18:39
    Hello Ken
    '
    Didn't mean to strike a nerve on the subject...( I know a good Counselor in your area)
    '
    Ya I saw the xbee stuff....802.15 worthless to me.
    '
    I was waiting for 802.11 WiFi.
    '
    @ Heater....My point exactly...!!!!
  • jazzedjazzed Posts: 11,803
    edited 2014-07-31 19:13
    So a Digi XBee S6B is of no value?
  • David BetzDavid Betz Posts: 14,516
    edited 2014-07-31 19:17
    jazzed wrote: »
    So a Digi XBee S6B is of no value?
    And you can get it right from the Parallax Store: http://www.parallax.com/product/32412
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 18,069
    edited 2014-07-31 20:44
    Maybe some of you should read about AMD and their failed CPUs !!!
    What about the iWatch ?

    Not only development about bringing a product to production, but also about knowing when to cut your losses and cancel it.

    Now, we'll get the P2 when we get it. Lots of other things to keep me over-busy in the meantime ;)
  • Oldbitcollector (Jeff)Oldbitcollector (Jeff) Posts: 8,091
    edited 2014-07-31 22:36
    +1
    Cluso99 wrote: »

    Now, we'll get the P2 when we get it. Lots of other things to keep me over-busy in the meantime ;)
  • tryittryit Posts: 72
    edited 2014-08-01 11:35
    Cluso99 wrote: »
    Now, we'll get the P2 when we get it. Lots of other things to keep me over-busy in the meantime ;)

    Hopefully sooner than later, from a business standpoint. It'd be great just before the holidays per the current schedule. I think Parallax needs a new significant product in the market to compete with R-Pi, Arduino Due, Tre, Beaglebone, etc.

    I'm surprised that no recurring blog exists for the Propeller-2 recording the process with pictures. Or maybe a recurring article in Makezine or some other popular magazine. More Wozniak and Jobs needed here, and less Abbott and Costello. It would be a great educational piece unique to Parallax and raise awareness. And raise sales when the product comes out in December of 2014. Have you considered teaming with Arduino? A new Arduino board featuring a Propeller-2 programmable in C would be fantastic.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2014-08-01 11:54
    tryit,
    I'm surprised that no recurring blog exists for the Propeller-2 recording the process with pictures.
    Why are you surprised? I know of no other companies that have been so open about their developments as Parallax has been with the Propeller II development. We have had blow by blow details here continuously. What other companies do you know that do this such that it makes you surprised Parallax is not even more open about progress than it is? I suspect you cannot name one.

    Recurring articles in Makezine or whatever would serve no purpose. Occasional hints at "future developments" perhaps.
    More Wozniak and Jobs needed here, and less Abbott and Costello.
    OK. Now you are being insulting to Chip and Ken Gracey. Whilst I might liken Chip to the Woz I think most here are very happy that Ken is not a big a****** like Jobs.
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