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Solar Storm could've knocked modern civilization back to the 18th century — Parallax Forums

Solar Storm could've knocked modern civilization back to the 18th century

Ron CzapalaRon Czapala Posts: 2,418
edited 2014-07-28 10:12 in General Discussion
http://news.yahoo.com/earth-survived-near-miss-2012-solar-storm-nasa-222404357.html
Back in 2012, the Sun erupted with a powerful solar storm that just missed the Earth but was big enough to "knock modern civilization back to the 18th century," NASA said.

...the most powerful in 150 years
The National Academy of Sciences has said the economic impact of a storm like the one in 1859 could cost the modern economy more than two trillion dollars and cause damage that might take years to repair.
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Comments

  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2014-07-25 06:13
    I sorry, but if it didn't happen, it didn't happen. Right? What are we supposed to do with this information.

    Here I am trying to figure out what this means and it seems either too catastrophic to prevent and we just have to accept suffering the consequences or there is something to be learned by telling the world that it almost happened, but I don't see that message included.

    Part of living well is taking care of business. Another part is recognizing there are some things that are impossible to prevent and we shouldn't stop living because disasters are possible.

    Maybe we would end up with superpowers, like the Fantastic Four.
  • mklrobomklrobo Posts: 420
    edited 2014-07-25 06:26
    :blank: Yet another reason to leave the planet, and the galaxy. We should have been gone, but no!
    Humans have to stay here and argue, not realize where we really stand in the universe. :innocent:
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2014-07-25 06:55
    mklrobo.

    What?! After you.

    Planet Earth may not seem like the safest place some times but so far we know of no other such safe place for humans to be in the universe. The if we did happen to some how discover such a place it's almost certainly lethal to try and get there.

    Meanwhile, if we are worried about a few solar sparks taking out our technological infrastructure that is something we could try and protect better.

    After all, if we cannot handle that we are not going to fare well in those far of galaxies and planetary systems.
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,256
    edited 2014-07-25 06:59
    Bring it on. My relay- controlled robots and vacuum tube ham gear will survive, making me a techno-overlord of the new dark age. Time to re-read "A Canticle for Liebowitz" by candlelight.

    “Are we doomed to it, Lord, chained to the pendulum of our own mad clockwork, helpless to halt its swing?”

    http://www.scybolt.com/homework/canticle.html
  • Ron CzapalaRon Czapala Posts: 2,418
    edited 2014-07-25 08:13
    I sorry, but if it didn't happen, it didn't happen. Right? What are we supposed to do with this information.

    Here I am trying to figure out what this means and it seems either too catastrophic to prevent and we just have to accept suffering the consequences or there is something to be learned by telling the world that it almost happened, but I don't see that message included.

    Part of living well is taking care of business. Another part is recognizing there are some things that are impossible to prevent and we shouldn't stop living because disasters are possible.

    I suppose we could appreciate what we have now and be sure we don't lose what's left of the knowledge of how to survive without all of the modern technology.

    How many people know how to fabricate/manufacture mechanical tools, etc the way it was done before we became so dependent on computers and automation?
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2014-07-25 08:22
    I suppose we could appreciate what we have now and be sure we don't lose what's left of the knowledge of how to survive without all of the modern technology.

    How many people know how to fabricate/manufacture mechanical tools, etc the way it was done before we became so dependent on computers and automation?

    I'd have to say about 3 billion and still growing. There are a lot of Asians that do quite nicely without technology, and do better with it.

    North Americans and Europeans are just the most likely to struggle.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2014-07-25 09:25
    There are many creatures on this planet that might say that banging the human race, "civilization" if you think that's an apt name for how we live now, back to the stone age is a very good idea.
    http://www.sciencemag.org/content/345/6195/392.full
    I might be inclined to agree with them.

    By the way, there is no going back to the 18th century. All the easy to harvest resources we exploited then have since been depleted. Coal, oil, iron, etc etc. If you don't have the technology to reach "the hard stuff" then it's stone age for you.
  • Beau SchwabeBeau Schwabe Posts: 6,566
    edited 2014-07-25 10:52
    Perhaps a setback to the 18th century is just what we need .... A good thump on the head from ol Sol.
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2014-07-25 11:06
    Except for the effect on satellites, I'm not sure I understand the mechanism for such potential destruction. Down here on terra firma I thought Earth's magnetic field was supposed to protect us from the charged nasties.

    -Phil
  • ElectricAyeElectricAye Posts: 4,561
    edited 2014-07-25 11:20
    NASA'a thoughts on this Carrington-class storm:

    http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2014/23jul_superstorm/

    "...According to a study by the National Academy of Sciences, the total economic impact could exceed $2 trillion or 20 times greater than the costs of a Hurricane Katrina. Multi-ton transformers damaged by such a storm might take years to repair..."

    "...In February 2014, physicist Pete Riley ...published a paper in Space Weather entitled "On the probability of occurrence of extreme space weather events." In it, he analyzed records of solar storms going back 50+ years. By extrapolating the frequency of ordinary storms to the extreme, he calculated the odds that a Carrington-class storm would hit Earth in the next ten years. ... The answer: 12%...."

    I like my DIY How-To books on paper. They're cheap these days as so many libraries are ditching their paper books for digital. Fools!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_storm_of_1859
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2014-07-25 11:34
    Phil,

    Check out the "Carrington Event" of 1859. Wikipedia is a good starting point as ever.

    "Telegraph systems all over Europe and North America failed, in some cases giving telegraph operators electric shocks. Telegraph pylons threw sparks. Some telegraph systems continued to send and receive messages despite having been disconnected from their power supplies."

    If this kind of thing can take disrupt pre-electronics era communications then the delicate transistors driving the of internet today have no chance.

    Get back to tubes with heaters, that what I say:)
  • ElectricAyeElectricAye Posts: 4,561
    edited 2014-07-25 14:35
    Except for the effect on satellites, I'm not sure I understand the mechanism for such potential destruction. Down here on terra firma I thought Earth's magnetic field was supposed to protect us from the charged nasties.

    -Phil


    I think when loads of charged particles coming from the sun hit the earth's magnetic field, they swirl around, create huge conductive plasmas that act like huge antennae high above the earth (Auroras! Awesome!). All those charges surging around are like on-going EMPs which can induce huge currents into power lines. If the lines don't have some sort of protection, these induced currents can overload the transformers and blow them up good.

    Real good.

  • trookstrooks Posts: 228
    edited 2014-07-25 15:15
    THE SKY ALMOST FELL!

    THE SKY ALMOST FELL!

    THE SKY ALMOST FELL!

    Sheesh.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2014-07-25 15:34
    trooks,

    "sheesh" not a word used much in English so I had to look it up.

    sheesh - exclamation - used to express disbelief or exasperation.

    So which is it? You don't believe there is perhaps a problem? You are exasperated because we don't understand something that you do?

    True, the sky did not fall.

    Like building your house next to a volcano, or living in a hurricane area, these volcanoes do erupt, hurricanes do happen, people get hurt and die.

    Are you suggesting we should not think about taking some precautions?
  • jonesjones Posts: 281
    edited 2014-07-25 15:52
    Are we really helpless? It's mostly the long lines that will have the highest currents induced, so break up the grid when the spacecraft see an event of that magnitude headed our way. Local producers can still provide some power, and we've all experienced the occasional power outage without the world coming to an end. Ground the long lines and we should avoid at least the worst of it. Is there some reason something like this can't be done? Being without power for a short time is far better than getting the entire grid infrastructure trashed. It would need to be done quickly, but with some up-front planning it ought to be possible.

    And the sky didn't almost fall. It did fall, it just missed.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2014-07-25 16:02
    The sky did fall. In 1859. So clearly it can happen again.

    I was wondering about this long lines thing.

    Seems possible that if such an event happened things like satellites might not even notice. They don't have huge inductive loops. They are not grounded.
  • jonesjones Posts: 281
    edited 2014-07-25 16:17
    The satellites I was referring to are SOHO, STEREO A&B and similar that monitor the sun. As for noticing, I think the blast of protons is pretty hard on the solar panels, and can even toast electronics. Don't know much about the failure modes, however.
  • ElectricAyeElectricAye Posts: 4,561
    edited 2014-07-25 18:31
    When the money people start issuing reports like these, you know it's something to consider:

    http://www.lloyds.com/~/media/lloyds/reports/emerging%20risk%20reports/solar%20storm%20risk%20to%20the%20north%20american%20electric%20grid.pdf

    Sure, conceptually it's easy to disconnect the grids and ground the lines, etc. But how do you do it if you haven't installed any switches to make that happen? How do you disconnect for real and on what level of notice? And how do you handle the millions of people in the cities who will be living without power for hours or days until the storm subsides? In a hurricane, you evacuate a city or two, open up a bunch of shelters away from the coastline. In a solar storm, how do you care for the population of an entire megapolis... or ten?
  • mindrobotsmindrobots Posts: 6,506
    edited 2014-07-25 18:50
    Every simulation needs a reboot every so often.

    Global BSOD!
  • jonesjones Posts: 281
    edited 2014-07-26 22:12
    When the money people start issuing reports like these, you know it's something to consider:

    http://www.lloyds.com/~/media/lloyds/reports/emerging risk reports/solar storm risk to the north american electric grid.pdf

    Sure, conceptually it's easy to disconnect the grids and ground the lines, etc. But how do you do it if you haven't installed any switches to make that happen? How do you disconnect for real and on what level of notice? And how do you handle the millions of people in the cities who will be living without power for hours or days until the storm subsides? In a hurricane, you evacuate a city or two, open up a bunch of shelters away from the coastline. In a solar storm, how do you care for the population of an entire megapolis... or ten?
    Most local lines do have disconnects, as do substations. Whether that's true on long transmission lines, I don't know, which was why I asked if anything prevents taking action, and that would certainly qualify as a show-stopper. But one might ask, given the recent event, whether or not we ought to consider such things. After all, which is worse, to take the system down in an orderly way to protect it, or to let the event destroy the infrastructure? In one case, you're without power for a few days at most, while in the other, you might be down for an extended period while everything gets rebuilt at some stunning cost. Nobody likes a precautionary landing but it beats the hell out of a crash. WRT to the people, if an event were to hit, they are going to have to deal with it one way or the other. Better to have to cope for a day or two, or months? I think the message is that we know of one event that did hit, and it caused problems even for primitive technology. We also now know of another event that could've hit, and we were saved only by luck. Shouldn't we do better than to rely on luck?
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2014-07-26 22:32
    When the money people start issuing reports like these, you know it's something to consider:

    http://www.lloyds.com/~/media/lloyds/reports/emerging risk reports/solar storm risk to the north american electric grid.pdf

    Sure, conceptually it's easy to disconnect the grids and ground the lines, etc. But how do you do it if you haven't installed any switches to make that happen? How do you disconnect for real and on what level of notice? And how do you handle the millions of people in the cities who will be living without power for hours or days until the storm subsides? In a hurricane, you evacuate a city or two, open up a bunch of shelters away from the coastline. In a solar storm, how do you care for the population of an entire megapolis... or ten?

    How? It is difficult to say. If you were a devout Mormon, you would already have a 2 year supply of food in your home and alternatives to depending on an ATM and supermarkets.

    If you expect FEMA to do it all, you might be quite disappointed.

    I don't actually recommend becoming a Mormon, but being aware of your own preparedness is certainly a step in the right direction. And I do admire that the Church of Latter Day Saints assures families that they have reserves even in lesser events, such a super-hurricane, an ice storm, a flood, or a long-term layoff from work.

    BTW, I do refuse to have an ATM card and prefer to deal in cash with paper bookkeeping records. And I keep a few candles around for whenever a typhoon brings down Taiwan's power. Improvements have been made. Fiber optic communications are not going to get hit by solar storms. And underground electrical distribution is less susceptible to solar radiation as well.

    As far as Lloyds is concerned... they want to raise insurance premiums and reduce payouts... always have. ( I am deeply concerned that the insurance industry is trying to drive national policy more and more as they have gone from about 2.5% of USA's GNP in the 1960s to something like 7.5% of GNP today.)

    No switches? Have you ever looked at all the fuses in a power line distribution network? They are there to contain damage... lots of them... at least one at every transformer.
  • mklrobomklrobo Posts: 420
    edited 2014-07-27 09:42
    Heater. wrote: »
    mklrobo.

    What?! After you.

    Planet Earth may not seem like the safest place some times but so far we know of no other such safe place for humans to be in the universe. The if we did happen to some how discover such a place it's almost certainly lethal to try and get there.

    Meanwhile, if we are worried about a few solar sparks taking out our technological infrastructure that is something we could try and protect better.

    After all, if we cannot handle that we are not going to fare well in those far of galaxies and planetary systems.

    I would not ask you to do anything that I am not prepared to do.(which does not mean much, If I was a loon or a lemming!):tongue:

    As the latest posts, we can not "hide" on earth forever; resources are limited. population is growing. 90% of the
    large fishes are extinct.(commercial) WHEN our sun goes Nova, we are going to be crispy critters.
    It is not looking good for the home team.
    Procedure;
    make a plan to LEAVE!
    1> build an economic engine that will sustain the space faring culture. 32 trillion dollars a year is a good start.
    (Too hard, skipped that, working on my second 32 trillion!):lol:

    2> Make a starship habitat underground. Get the culture used to training, building, maintaining, and living in that
    enviroment. It will be a shock. Those that can not take the real "starfleet" training, leave the program. It will be
    tough, no doubt.:tongue:

    3> Robotic teraforming and habitat building. Send robots to the Moon, Mars, etc, to start building the habitats
    for the culture. CO2 can be "cracked" on Mars to produce O2. (CO2 pushed across a hot Zirconium crystal,not dilithuim crystal!)
    ( for robots, Parallax Products, of course!)

    4> build the "star ships" and begin the journey!.:smile:

    Will have to develop "force fields". Check out Dr. Podlenktov's work on Tensor beam, very interesting!(I may have spelled his name wrong)
    Alternative energy sources, like Hydrogen and Tensor beam power generator.

    All you gotta do is.................:lol:

    Strategy is the heart of survival and the soul of success.
  • TtailspinTtailspin Posts: 1,326
    edited 2014-07-27 09:56
    No offence intended, It seems number 3, and number 4 from your list are analogous to "Earth first! We will log the rest of the planets later!" and would only delay the inevitable.
    Humans are a messy lot. :)




    -Tommy
  • mklrobomklrobo Posts: 420
    edited 2014-07-27 10:18
    Ttailspin wrote: »
    No offence intended, It seems number 3, and number 4 from your list are analogous to "Earth first! We will log the rest of the planets later!" and would only delay the inevitable.
    Humans are a messy lot. :)

    -Tommy

    No doubt, we have to build the infrastructure on earth to start. If we do not start, we are definitely finished.:innocent:
  • ElectricAyeElectricAye Posts: 4,561
    edited 2014-07-27 11:23
    Nothing to worry about, everybody, just keep moving, yes, that way... that way....

    uruguay-cattle-2013-2-7.jpg
  • trookstrooks Posts: 228
    edited 2014-07-27 16:12
    Heater. wrote: »
    trooks,

    "sheesh" not a word used much in English so I had to look it up.

    sheesh - exclamation - used to express disbelief or exasperation.

    So which is it? You don't believe there is perhaps a problem? You are exasperated because we don't understand something that you do?

    True, the sky did not fall.

    Like building your house next to a volcano, or living in a hurricane area, these volcanoes do erupt, hurricanes do happen, people get hurt and die.

    Are you suggesting we should not think about taking some precautions?



    The sky almost fell. Sooner or later it will fall. Will our worrying about it delay that eventual fall by one picosecond?

    You do not have to build your house on a volcano or where hurricanes happen. Even if you build it in a cave the cave opening will still be under the sky though.

    My only thought is sheesh.
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2014-07-27 22:06
    IMO, preparing for the aftermath of the inevitable disaster is important. That's what FEMA and the Red Cross/Red Crescent are all about. Trying to prevent or ameliorate such a disaster is like tilting at windmills, i.e. hopeless. You take what comes and, with a stiff upper lip, endeavor to keep calm and carry on:

    tumblr_llijdgkmzx1qkqqjeo1_500.jpg

    -Phil
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2014-07-27 22:57
    My own experience in San Francisco's Loma Prieta earthquake in 1989 and observing tdunamis, typhoons, and earthquakes throughout Southeast Asia ever since is that one should expect to be entirely on their own for the first 3 days after a major disaster hits. And one should move away from the disaster area as soon as possible if at all possible.

    Waiting for FEMA, the Red Cross, the Red Crescent, or the UN to step in will never be as good as taking care of yourself and moving to an area with a normal infrastructure for an interim period ASAP..
  • Mark_TMark_T Posts: 1,981
    edited 2014-07-28 06:32
    As I see it the best way to prepared for Carrington-class events is to stock up on power distribution spares - switchgear,
    transformers, etc, and move them into place in advance - in other words add slack to the system - something private
    energy companies are never going to do without legal compulsion, so people in the know are simply campaigning / lobbying
    to get more awareness of the issue in government. Some of the estimates say it would take ~9 months or such to manufacture
    replacement hardware as things stand, enough time for severe political unrest to develop.

    Yes satellites will be taken out too, there is a possibility of GPS suffering outage too, so having replacement satellites stockpiled
    is also a wise precaution.

    Incidentally there would be the benefit of auroras bright enough to read by, visible at nearly all lattitudes, so people would be
    tolerant of a week or two's disruption I reckon, but months would be dangerous.

    I suspect early warning will mitigate most of the risk, but stockpiling transformers etc is still a wise policy, its not as if the
    basic design will change anytime soon, and the electrical infrastructure is only likely to grow anyway (charging Elon Musks
    cars and so forth!)
  • ElectricAyeElectricAye Posts: 4,561
    edited 2014-07-28 07:23
    One of the biggest challenges in dealing with this sort of storm is guessing when to shut down the grid. We might see the first blast coming at us with plenty of time to shut things down manually. But then you have millions without power and you need to know when it's safe to reconnect the power and yet not be in danger of another flare coming in and knocking out everything. You might lose the satellites that we use to monitor these incoming flares, so how do you guess when it's safe to power back up? Without equipment designed for automatic shut-down, you could fry your grid on the second or third flare. And because flares sometimes come in groups, it's a real possibility you'll get more multiple hits in a row. Much of the younger generation doesn't even know how to read maps - they just have their GPS aurally guide them wherever they need to go - so it's hard to imagine how dysfunctional society will get without the uber-connectivity we now take for granted on a global scale - even if it's just for a few weeks. Never mind the transportation disruptions and food shortages: I think the mere possibility that video games might be unavailable for more than 5 or 6 hours is a thought that strikes terror in every parent's heart.
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