However I don't think the Propellers are to be compared to Raspberry Pi, Beagle Bone, etc. They are completely different machines. Those are boards not chips. They are designed to be full up computers running Linux or other OS, not micro-controllers.
More valid comparisons are to be made with the small ARM Cortex micro-controllers, the STM32F4 and such like. Those are micro-controllers. of a similar size and price, with on chip RAM and FLASH. They don't have many processor cores but that is to a large extent offset by having a ton of hardware peripherals on chip, UART, SPI, PWM, I2C, USB, RTC, etc etc. Not to mention floating point hardware. .
The Propellers though will be a hell of a lot easier to program multi-tasking software for.
Based on what you have said, would it be profitable/effective for Parallax to have an accessory board that can serve as standalone computer? Parallax could have the best of
all worlds. CPU accessory boards allow modularity to compete with the Rasperry Pi, and the like, without sacrificing their microcontroller position. This modularity could
give scale and competitiveness at the speed of business, to adapt to that market, but maintaining their core. All platforms like linux, windows, etc could be addressed.
And you can't spell Tachyon without an "h", unless you're Loopy.
I suppose that without an 'h' is just plain Tacky..... my keyboard skills keep dragging me down. I grew up with the impression from Rock Hudson that your secretary did all the keyboard work and you just said, "Now, Miss Jones... please take dictation."
Regardless... you get my meanin'. I grow weary of the Blackberry Pie talk... I am gonna use my HP50g to program the Propeller2 in Tackyon.
:cool: I hope an accessory board is avaliable, specifically in the family of ARM. I pinched this info off
of wikipedia;
The ARM architecture (32-bit) is the most widely used architecture in mobile devices, and most popular 32-bit one in embedded systems.[14] In 2005, about 98% of all mobile phones sold used at least one ARM processor.[15] According to ARM Holdings, in 2010 alone, producers of chips based on ARM architectures reported shipments of 6.1 billion ARM-based processors, representing 95% of smartphones, 35% of digital televisions and set-top boxes and 10% of mobile computers.
So, it would not be suprising to incoroporate this into the propeller. Motorola has the Android platform to use in their phones, and I would
not be surprised to see android and the ARM in their 800 Mhz radios used in the LEO enviroment. Alot of people put alot of work into
developing software/drivers for Parallax. Pursuing the ARM is beneficial, as learning it helps now, and in the future.
There has been lots of talk about using the Prop as an I/O accessory around the forums. All that talk will continue with the Prop2. And of course, the Prop1 can be an I/O accessory for the Prop2.
Do you need a Prop1 VGA/KBD/SD/?? accessory for you serial capable micro? Try this. It's been hooked up to PIC32 chips running MMBasic, Propellers running Forth, STM32 Discoveries running Forth, STM32 Discoveries running Espruino and probably other I don;t know about. (Plus you can run BASIC in it if you want to go retro).
Could you be a bit more specific as to what you mean by "accessory board". On the one hand yo hint at a propeller "standalone computer" but then you are talking about "All platforms like linux, windows, etc could be addressed." So have no idea what it is you are wanting.
I seriously doubt Parallax could justify making an ARM board. There are thousands of those out there already.
Similarly building a chip that is an ARM with Propeller II as an on board peripheral has it's attractions. But that seems like far to large a project for Parallax to get into. They could never compete on price with all the other ARM vendors. The thing would become obsolete within 6 months as the ARM world moves forward.
Could you be a bit more specific as to what you mean by "accessory board". On the one hand yo hint at a propeller "standalone computer" but then you are talking about "All platforms like linux, windows, etc could be addressed." So have no idea what it is you are wanting.
I seriously doubt Parallax could justify making an ARM board. There are thousands of those out there already.
Similarly building a chip that is an ARM with Propeller II as an on board peripheral has it's attractions. But that seems like far to large a project for Parallax to get into. They could never compete on price with all the other ARM vendors. The thing would become obsolete within 6 months as the ARM world moves forward.
Maybe better just to have a board that has both an ARM and a Propeller. Even an ARM with a P1 would be interesting. Maybe jazzed will make one for us. :-)
Could you be a bit more specific as to what you mean by "accessory board". On the one hand yo hint at a propeller "standalone computer" but then you are talking about "All platforms like linux, windows, etc could be addressed." So have no idea what it is you are wanting.
I seriously doubt Parallax could justify making an ARM board. There are thousands of those out there already.
I took that to mean an expansion style board.
That is a direction many vendors are taking, adding a RasPi connector, to their evaluation boards.
That bit is relatively easy - just a connector on a PCB
More work, is having a tool chain that can work on a RasPi, or on a tablet.
I think Parallax already have quite a bit of effort going in that direction - see other threads in the P1 area.
Such software flows will pick up P2 quite quickly, as the opcodes lock down.
Yes, I have been dreaming about an ARM and Propeller combo board for years. The ARM part to handle all the big stuff like networking, USB gadgets, file system and large application programs. The Prop part to handle the real-time real world interfacing.
Problem is in my dream the ARM part would have to have the chops to run Linux. Seemed like a pointless exercise otherwise. That means that realistically it is a hopeless proposition. Parallax would have to develop their own ARM board, it would never compete on price with the Raspis and Beagles etc. It would be a huge support nightmare. It would become obsolete very quickly.
The best we can do is a Prop I or II as an add on board for the Raspberry Pi and other systems that are out there in huge numbers.
But what about a Prop plus a smaller ARM? Say a STM32F4 running JavaScript or Python? That would be very quick and cheap to develop. Would not require supporting a whole OS. Would such a combo be compelling?
At least the Prop could provide a VGA terminal interface for a stand alone Python / JS system. Then it would have a lot of real-time, real world interfacing left over to support the Python / JS applications.
I'm not sure that "small ARM" plus Prop has enough appeal to be worth it,
Maybe better just to have a board that has both an ARM and a Propeller. Even an ARM with a P1 would be interesting. Maybe jazzed will make one for us. :-)
The challenge here is which ARM
- With many board level offerings already there, a peripheral approach might be better in the short term.
There are also intel Galileo Gen 2, and intel Edison platforms, and in the Edison I see intel has 'seen the light' and will do a family of development boards.
The version that is slightly above SD size, but with a 70 way connector would seem a suitable match-up with P2.
I agree, a Propeller board to mate with the Raspi is a great idea. The idea has been floating around here for ages. Bill already has such a board available. http://www.mikronauts.com/raspberry-pi/robopi/
Parallax should have made their own "official" Propeller for Raspi board a year ago.
We already have a Propeller tool chain that runs on the Raspi. It's propgcc and SimpleIDE, the same as on a Linux PC. Allows stand alone use of the Paspi/Prop, no PC required. Bill Henning offers builds of this to support his boards.
OK, but you do realize that Peter's Forth interpreter is spelled as "Tachyon" and not "Tackyon", right?
Of course, I am not exactly dumber than a door post... even if my on-line persona is a bit hick and my recall of details is slipping while my typos seem to have a mind of their own.
Tachyon and the HP50g it is.
I have to create some communication routines on the HP50g to make the whole set-up smoother, but it is quite adequate.
Of course, there is no Blackberry Pie. I was referring to the ubitquious Blueberry Tart or something.
But what about a Prop plus a smaller ARM? Say a STM32F4 running JavaScript or Python? That would be very quick and cheap to develop. Would not require supporting a whole OS. Would such a combo be compelling?
At least the Prop could provide a VGA terminal interface for a stand alone Python / JS system. Then it would have a lot of real-time, real world interfacing left over to support the Python / JS applications.
That is more or less what I was thinking about. Not everyone wants to fool with Linux. There are simpler RTOS around that easily fit on the STM32F4x chips for people who need it. Embedded Javascript and Python are certainly worth something. Javascript and Python are already in education. My son learned Javascript in high school. Python is being taught in college and universities.
Could be all the power of a full up Linux based board plus the real-time goodness of a Propeller. Or perhaps simpler things like a JS/Python running board/chip and a Propeller.
The problem that bites is complexity.
All of a sudden you are juggling two languages, need two different IDEs, need two hardware programming connections. It gets messy.
I believe that is why such combos have never really taken off.
Something like the Raspi + Prop gets around the complexity issue a bit by enabling all development to be done on the Raspi itself. No PC required.
Perhaps the JS/Python running on a small ARM plus Prop solution works. You don't need any IDE or special programming hardware to use the ARM side here. You could even embed the required JS code into a Spin or C program for the Prop and have it load up the ARM with it.
All of a sudden you are juggling two languages, need two different IDEs, need two hardware programming connections. It gets messy.
I believe that is why such combos have never really taken off.
Ya, I thought about that briefly. The PC alternative is a project that I've considered before, but am not ready to do yet. That would be a multi-processor IDE which would most likely be an existing open source IDE like Geany (clean, full featured, and not encumbered by Parallax requirements).
Perhaps the JS/Python running on a small ARM plus Prop solution works. You don't need any IDE or special programming hardware to use the ARM side here.
Is the micro-python source available yet? Python is interactive enough to be stand-alone. Maybe I should look at that.
Is the microcontoller version of Javascript a stand-alone interactive program?
Is the microcontoller version of Javascript a stand-alone interactive program?
Yes! Check out the Espruino project. I have it running on an Olimexuino and I'm getting ready to load it up on the STM32F4 Discovery in just a minute. It runs on a few other boards besides the official Espruino board. The STM32F4 discovery is nice since it's $20 and has the fastest processor and the most memory of all the options.
Yes! Check out the Espruino project. I have it running on an Olimexuino and I'm getting ready to load it up on the STM32F4 Discovery in just a minute. It runs on a few other boards besides the official Espruino board. The STM32F4 discovery is nice since it's $20 and has the fastest processor and the most memory of all the options.
The STM32F429 is certainly on my radar since I have the discovery board with LCD. I have a Nucleo board too.
OK, Espruino runs on the STM32F4 just fine. (I know it says it does but I've driven through Missouri, so I like to see things for myself and make sure they are "Rick proof".
The console connection to Espruino is either through the STM VCP (Virtual Comm Port) out the micro-B connector (CN5) on the bottom of the board or pins PA2(TX) and PA3(RX).
Now to go work on the PEB side to update my stand alone Propeller terminal so it is ready to talk to the Espruino board.
(Hey, this is almost like me making progress on a project!!! )
Espruino is totally stand alone. All you need is a UART connection to enter and edit JS interactively.
Not sure of the MicroPython status. When I checked last week the KickStarter hardware was not shipped yet.
I backed the Espruino on KickStarter partly because Gordon Williams said he would open source all the code if he met the goal. All with a view to getting it running on the PII one day!
Gordon has certainly kept his promise and more. Espruino and the (optional) WEB IDE have developed in leaps and bounds.
Ya, I thought about that briefly. The PC alternative is a project that I've considered before, but am not ready to do yet. That would be a multi-processor IDE which would most likely be an existing open source IDE like Geany (clean, full featured, and not encumbered by Parallax requirements).
Except that it performs like a turtle.
Is the micro-python source available yet? Python is interactive enough to be stand-alone. Maybe I should look at that.
Is the microcontoller version of Javascript a stand-alone interactive program?
:cool: It only seems logical that Parallax will create "something" that will bridge the gap, that obviously is desired.
But Hey, I just asked a question about the ARM/prop board, I did not know somebody had already did it. - Micronauts.
If Parallax does produce this, or "recommends" Arm/Prop interfaces, that would be great! More involved robotics will
occur in the future, it is a question of building/planning the Architecture to create the masterpiece.
- Strategy is the heart of survival, and the soul of success.:blank:
If everybody keeps on with it on this thread, it looks like the "ultimate" pair up will be explained/programmed right here!! :nerd:
Physically/electronically connecting the two together has become a nobrainer ( I can say that because I've just done it and I qualify).
OBC has a propeller platform well under development that is a really nice VGA/KBD/SD/I2C slave to some target system you hook up to it.
The trick is HOW you want the Propeller to appear (async, I2C slave, SPI, etc.) AND having GOOD QUALITY glue software to support that interface and the functions you assign to it.
Having a capable interactive programming environment on the Prop makes this the easiest. It can be connected with a serial connection for programming/debugging and the other connection as required for it to do its I/O thing with the ARM. At this time with the P1, this means one of the Forths, one of the basics or some yet to be publicized monitor /mini-OS allowing you to load and configure soft peripherals as needed via a serial connection. With the Prop2, hopefully this opens up to Espruino (or a derivative) or hopefully microPython.
Of course, this can also be done with a toolchain on the ARM or (worst case scenario) a toolchain on a PC.
As with many of the things that have been done with the Prop, the hardware falls into place but the software component falls apart or more often heads off in several different directions.
Parallax doesn't have the software resources to do this so it falls on the user community which is an incredibly friendly, talented, resourceful, helpful, fractured, dysfunctional bunch of easily distracted Propellerheads (and I mean that in the nicest way possible!!)
At this time with the P1, this means one of the Forths, one of the basics or some yet to be publicized monitor /mini-OS allowing you to load and configure soft peripherals as needed via a serial connection.
Not quite. We can program binaries into Props from Raspeberry Pi's using a direct connection of the Prop to the UART pins on the Raspies GPIO header. Bill Henning supplies a version of SimpleIDE for the Raspi that does this.
I'm still trying to find time to build and test the latest version of SimpleIDE with these mods.
I've been mostly using an old SimpleIDE / propgcc / openspin I built from the sources with Heater's modified propeller-load, however there is a much more current build at learn.parallax.com that I can also use with Heater's build of propeller-load.
Not quite. We can program binaries into Props from Raspeberry Pi's using a direct connection of the Prop to the UART pins on the Raspies GPIO header. Bill Henning supplies a version of SimpleIDE for the Raspi that does this.
I'm still trying to find time to build and test the latest version of SimpleIDE with these mods.
Comments
all worlds. CPU accessory boards allow modularity to compete with the Rasperry Pi, and the like, without sacrificing their microcontroller position. This modularity could
give scale and competitiveness at the speed of business, to adapt to that market, but maintaining their core. All platforms like linux, windows, etc could be addressed.
I suppose that without an 'h' is just plain Tacky..... my keyboard skills keep dragging me down. I grew up with the impression from Rock Hudson that your secretary did all the keyboard work and you just said, "Now, Miss Jones... please take dictation."
Regardless... you get my meanin'. I grow weary of the Blackberry Pie talk... I am gonna use my HP50g to program the Propeller2 in Tackyon.
yes we are all still here patiently waiting
of wikipedia;
The ARM architecture (32-bit) is the most widely used architecture in mobile devices, and most popular 32-bit one in embedded systems.[14] In 2005, about 98% of all mobile phones sold used at least one ARM processor.[15] According to ARM Holdings, in 2010 alone, producers of chips based on ARM architectures reported shipments of 6.1 billion ARM-based processors, representing 95% of smartphones, 35% of digital televisions and set-top boxes and 10% of mobile computers.
So, it would not be suprising to incoroporate this into the propeller. Motorola has the Android platform to use in their phones, and I would
not be surprised to see android and the ARM in their 800 Mhz radios used in the LEO enviroment. Alot of people put alot of work into
developing software/drivers for Parallax. Pursuing the ARM is beneficial, as learning it helps now, and in the future.
There has been lots of talk about using the Prop as an I/O accessory around the forums. All that talk will continue with the Prop2. And of course, the Prop1 can be an I/O accessory for the Prop2.
Do you need a Prop1 VGA/KBD/SD/?? accessory for you serial capable micro? Try this. It's been hooked up to PIC32 chips running MMBasic, Propellers running Forth, STM32 Discoveries running Forth, STM32 Discoveries running Espruino and probably other I don;t know about. (Plus you can run BASIC in it if you want to go retro).
Could you be a bit more specific as to what you mean by "accessory board". On the one hand yo hint at a propeller "standalone computer" but then you are talking about "All platforms like linux, windows, etc could be addressed." So have no idea what it is you are wanting.
I seriously doubt Parallax could justify making an ARM board. There are thousands of those out there already.
Similarly building a chip that is an ARM with Propeller II as an on board peripheral has it's attractions. But that seems like far to large a project for Parallax to get into. They could never compete on price with all the other ARM vendors. The thing would become obsolete within 6 months as the ARM world moves forward.
I took that to mean an expansion style board.
That is a direction many vendors are taking, adding a RasPi connector, to their evaluation boards.
That bit is relatively easy - just a connector on a PCB
More work, is having a tool chain that can work on a RasPi, or on a tablet.
I think Parallax already have quite a bit of effort going in that direction - see other threads in the P1 area.
Such software flows will pick up P2 quite quickly, as the opcodes lock down.
Yes, I have been dreaming about an ARM and Propeller combo board for years. The ARM part to handle all the big stuff like networking, USB gadgets, file system and large application programs. The Prop part to handle the real-time real world interfacing.
Problem is in my dream the ARM part would have to have the chops to run Linux. Seemed like a pointless exercise otherwise. That means that realistically it is a hopeless proposition. Parallax would have to develop their own ARM board, it would never compete on price with the Raspis and Beagles etc. It would be a huge support nightmare. It would become obsolete very quickly.
The best we can do is a Prop I or II as an add on board for the Raspberry Pi and other systems that are out there in huge numbers.
But what about a Prop plus a smaller ARM? Say a STM32F4 running JavaScript or Python? That would be very quick and cheap to develop. Would not require supporting a whole OS. Would such a combo be compelling?
At least the Prop could provide a VGA terminal interface for a stand alone Python / JS system. Then it would have a lot of real-time, real world interfacing left over to support the Python / JS applications.
I'm not sure that "small ARM" plus Prop has enough appeal to be worth it,
The challenge here is which ARM
- With many board level offerings already there, a peripheral approach might be better in the short term.
There are also intel Galileo Gen 2, and intel Edison platforms, and in the Edison I see intel has 'seen the light' and will do a family of development boards.
The version that is slightly above SD size, but with a 70 way connector would seem a suitable match-up with P2.
I agree, a Propeller board to mate with the Raspi is a great idea. The idea has been floating around here for ages. Bill already has such a board available. http://www.mikronauts.com/raspberry-pi/robopi/
Parallax should have made their own "official" Propeller for Raspi board a year ago.
We already have a Propeller tool chain that runs on the Raspi. It's propgcc and SimpleIDE, the same as on a Linux PC. Allows stand alone use of the Paspi/Prop, no PC required. Bill Henning offers builds of this to support his boards.
Of course, I am not exactly dumber than a door post... even if my on-line persona is a bit hick and my recall of details is slipping while my typos seem to have a mind of their own.
Tachyon and the HP50g it is.
I have to create some communication routines on the HP50g to make the whole set-up smoother, but it is quite adequate.
Of course, there is no Blackberry Pie. I was referring to the ubitquious Blueberry Tart or something.
Could be all the power of a full up Linux based board plus the real-time goodness of a Propeller. Or perhaps simpler things like a JS/Python running board/chip and a Propeller.
The problem that bites is complexity.
All of a sudden you are juggling two languages, need two different IDEs, need two hardware programming connections. It gets messy.
I believe that is why such combos have never really taken off.
Something like the Raspi + Prop gets around the complexity issue a bit by enabling all development to be done on the Raspi itself. No PC required.
Perhaps the JS/Python running on a small ARM plus Prop solution works. You don't need any IDE or special programming hardware to use the ARM side here. You could even embed the required JS code into a Spin or C program for the Prop and have it load up the ARM with it.
I don't know...just rambling.
Ya, I thought about that briefly. The PC alternative is a project that I've considered before, but am not ready to do yet. That would be a multi-processor IDE which would most likely be an existing open source IDE like Geany (clean, full featured, and not encumbered by Parallax requirements).
Except that it performs like a turtle.
Is the micro-python source available yet? Python is interactive enough to be stand-alone. Maybe I should look at that.
Is the microcontoller version of Javascript a stand-alone interactive program?
Yes! Check out the Espruino project. I have it running on an Olimexuino and I'm getting ready to load it up on the STM32F4 Discovery in just a minute. It runs on a few other boards besides the official Espruino board. The STM32F4 discovery is nice since it's $20 and has the fastest processor and the most memory of all the options.
The STM32F429 is certainly on my radar since I have the discovery board with LCD. I have a Nucleo board too.
The console connection to Espruino is either through the STM VCP (Virtual Comm Port) out the micro-B connector (CN5) on the bottom of the board or pins PA2(TX) and PA3(RX).
Now to go work on the PEB side to update my stand alone Propeller terminal so it is ready to talk to the Espruino board.
(Hey, this is almost like me making progress on a project!!!
Except that it's a platform.
Not sure of the MicroPython status. When I checked last week the KickStarter hardware was not shipped yet.
I backed the Espruino on KickStarter partly because Gordon Williams said he would open source all the code if he met the goal. All with a view to getting it running on the PII one day!
Gordon has certainly kept his promise and more. Espruino and the (optional) WEB IDE have developed in leaps and bounds.
Nope, it's a LEG (Legendary Electronic Gizmo):cool:
Hey, folks, he's here all week!
Try the Kung Pao chicken and don't forget to tip your server!
:cool: It only seems logical that Parallax will create "something" that will bridge the gap, that obviously is desired.
But Hey, I just asked a question about the ARM/prop board, I did not know somebody had already did it. - Micronauts.
If Parallax does produce this, or "recommends" Arm/Prop interfaces, that would be great! More involved robotics will
occur in the future, it is a question of building/planning the Architecture to create the masterpiece.
- Strategy is the heart of survival, and the soul of success.:blank:
If everybody keeps on with it on this thread, it looks like the "ultimate" pair up will be explained/programmed right here!! :nerd:
OBC has a propeller platform well under development that is a really nice VGA/KBD/SD/I2C slave to some target system you hook up to it.
The trick is HOW you want the Propeller to appear (async, I2C slave, SPI, etc.) AND having GOOD QUALITY glue software to support that interface and the functions you assign to it.
Having a capable interactive programming environment on the Prop makes this the easiest. It can be connected with a serial connection for programming/debugging and the other connection as required for it to do its I/O thing with the ARM. At this time with the P1, this means one of the Forths, one of the basics or some yet to be publicized monitor /mini-OS allowing you to load and configure soft peripherals as needed via a serial connection. With the Prop2, hopefully this opens up to Espruino (or a derivative) or hopefully microPython.
Of course, this can also be done with a toolchain on the ARM or (worst case scenario) a toolchain on a PC.
As with many of the things that have been done with the Prop, the hardware falls into place but the software component falls apart or more often heads off in several different directions.
Parallax doesn't have the software resources to do this so it falls on the user community which is an incredibly friendly, talented, resourceful, helpful, fractured, dysfunctional bunch of easily distracted Propellerheads (and I mean that in the nicest way possible!!)
I'm still trying to find time to build and test the latest version of SimpleIDE with these mods.
I've been mostly using an old SimpleIDE / propgcc / openspin I built from the sources with Heater's modified propeller-load, however there is a much more current build at learn.parallax.com that I can also use with Heater's build of propeller-load.