Is it time?
rjo__
Posts: 2,114
This isn't heresy or an attempt to create a revolt. I think it is good business.
After looking at the sorry state of some Arduino forums. I think it is time to invite the people in
to a Parallax hosted Arduino forum.
There could be some caveats...best left to the moderators: the discussion should mostly be how to use Arduinos with Parallax products or some such and how to convert
Arduino projects into Propeller projects, etc.
Who knows... maybe even a Raspberry Pi forum would make sense here.
After looking at the sorry state of some Arduino forums. I think it is time to invite the people in
to a Parallax hosted Arduino forum.
There could be some caveats...best left to the moderators: the discussion should mostly be how to use Arduinos with Parallax products or some such and how to convert
Arduino projects into Propeller projects, etc.
Who knows... maybe even a Raspberry Pi forum would make sense here.
Comments
I am a novice (relative) to the forum. I think any improvements for efficency and advancement has to be taken into consideration. After all, that is what technology does,
is improve with time. I wish Parallax had a board that is as powerfull as the beagleboard or gallieo. There is alot of competition in that level, alluring to industrial contracts.
If they did make more powerfull boards, would people stop buying the stamps, in leiu of the more powerfull? There has been alot of work done on the stamps
programming, due to the hobbiest contribution. Things must advance, to respond to competetion, and to meet more demanding "loads" of work. Should anyone be
upset in the face of invention, when they, themselves, are the ones building the bridge to it?
My point is that every time someone googles an Arduino issue... I would like the Parallax forum to pop up...and once the come
here, I'm hoping they will have the same rewarding experience that the vast majority of people do and that they will meet a lot of
other very nice people with similar interests. The forum is one of the best assets Parallax has. I think this would add value to the brand.
I think we need separate forums more to keep Parallax users sane then encourage cross platform development though that might happen eventually.
I do not speak for Parallax, but I think there is already an avenue for the Arduino crowd. It's called Learn.
http://learn.parallax.com/KickStart
I covers a multitude of Parallax products with Propeller, Basic Stamp and Arduino code.
If someone needs help with Arduino code for a particular sensor, just post in the "Sensors" forum.
I'm not sure where a separate Arduino forum would be appropriate here.
There are already forums dedicated to the other controllers. Why put more noise in here?
I'll shut up now.
The official pivot to gcc and the P2 development have drawn the interest of a lot of the best talent away from Spin and the P1. This isn't necessarily a bad thing; I understand why Parallax felt the need to embrace gcc and I'm with everyone else holding my breath for some form of the P2. But it remains a thing that about a year ago I came up with a very clever and new way to use Spin to create low-level libraries and use them throughout a Spin application, and when I posted it hardly anybody cared. The fact that the PropTool won't compile my apps and I had to switch to Brad's Spin Tool was met with minimal interest. This is exactly the sort of thing I suspect would have started a thosand comment thread four years ago, but the most active posters here are simply not all that interested in Spin any more.
While there are a couple of projects I've been interested in pursuing over the years for which gcc would have been a great tool, it's still not an easy entry-level tool and it's not one I've been able to make time for as I have immediate stuff to do which I can do in Spin. It's much more complicated to manage projects, and many venerable OBEX objects have never been converted (or worse, won't work right at all with top code running from XMM, which is only reason for someone like me to break with Spin for gcc). A noob coming in today finds a bewildering cloud of possible Propeller languages each with their adherents instead of the broad consensus that existed when I first found the Propeller. Should one take up gcc (difficult if you don't already know it from elsewhere), Spin (OK it's weird and proprietary but there's great help -- oh wait), one of the dialects of Forth (hey I like Forth but none of them are ready for prime time for distributing an application, as well as OBEX conversions) etc.
In this situation I can't see how it would be good in any way to add yet another distraction. Maybe when P2 comes out we can agree on a common development system that everyone can coalesce around again -- maybe even gcc, maybe a new Spin, but whatever it needs to be the default intro language so all the talent is ready to be on the same page when someone comes here looking for help, and all the capabilities of the CPU need to be unlocked for that language without having to learn PASM and convert an object written for something else.
Anything that increases the chances of that accident happening to other people is good for Parallax.
A new forum might also attracted talented programmers. Participating in forums can be (but usually isn't) a form of self promotion. So talented people in the Arduino community looking for new opportunities might come as naturally as water dripping from my faucet.
The final nail for me is the work that Heater did in the Project Forum helping Kaeru translate some arduino code into SimpleIDE.
http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php/156107-MPU6050-Quaternion?p=1276481#post1276481
It certainly seems that Jazzed is close to creating a general and very simple way to make some Arduino code directly available for use on a Propeller... and vice versa. And SimpleIDE is a much better development platform... When that happens, there will be a migration. The more visible it is, the larger the migration. It might not ever happen, of course. But the basic logic stays the same.
http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php/156107-MPU6050-Quaternion?p=1276481#post1276481
Heater. is also immensely helpful (and entertaining!) but in the case you sited, it's all that jazzed stuff. (Who is also immensely helpful and entertaining!)
"Heater"? I don't appear in the thread you linked to at all. The credit is intended for Jazzed I believe. Where it belongs.
Whilst we are here...
I see no reason for Arduino or Raspi or whatever sections. Those things already have their own forums. This is a Parallax forum.
I do start to worry for Parallax. Seems to me they have a tough time ahead....because:
1) Those millions of Ardino users, the "Arduino generation", a are not going to migrate to the Propeller when they outgrow the capabilities of the ATMEL. They will migrate to "bigger, better, faster" Arduinos. Or to the Beagle Bones and Raspberry Pi's of this world. Even the Prop II does not stand up here.
2) Things are moving fast. You can now have the modern equivalent of a BASIC STAMP but using JavaScript or Python.
http://www.espruino.com/
https://tessel.io/
http://micropython.org/
These tiny and very cheap little systems can do an awful lot. Check out the devices you can drive with an Espruino out of the box for example: http://www.espruino.com/Code+Examples
There are now millions of softies who have grown up with web development and they love being able to transfer what they know to micro-controllers that can measure and control the real world.
3) I keep reading here about how well Parallax does in educational circles, but...
In the past couple of months I have spent hundreds of hours listening to pod casts and watching YouTube videos, circulating around the topics of what is happening in the rapidly growing Maker Movement, Hacker Spaces, STEM educational initiatives etc. In the States and in the UK.
Well, it's wall to wall Arduino, Raspberry Pi, etc, etc. Not one mention of Parallax and the Propeller anywhere:
http://www.theamphour.com/
http://embedded.fm/
So, all that started to make me worry for Parallax and the Propeller. What is the "hook" to get people to investigate them?
I'm sorry if that all sounds negative, gloomy and doomy. Maybe I'm just looking at it wrong today.
Just to be clear about credit, most of the Arduino library code for propeller was ported by Martin_H. I just added class inheritance to bolster the Serial stuff, and made Martin's code into a Simple Library that works with the IDE.
I've talked with Andy a little about making Arduino code easier to "just build" in SimpleIDE. The Robotics Shield Kit (for Arduino) seems to be an interesting start for demonstrating some of the possibilities. There are some small infrastructure challenges, but they are big enough to be a barrier because of available time. Having a more complete libArduino Simple Library is another barrier to more general adoption (or migration as you call it).
As for mixing up me and Heater, well "stuff happens", and he's always faster than me for correcting such things, so it's no sink on my time. LOL Now, if someone still believes Tor is Linus, well, I'm pretty sure he isn't, but they do seem like-minded at least in some respects. ;-)
BTW, I really appreciate this statement: "Participating in forums can be (but usually isn't) a form of self promotion." Boisterous self-aggrandizing annoys me more than anything ... but many of us including me have been guilty of it.
some sweet board that everyone will drool over. If the geek crowd is going ga-ga over galileo, and the VIP crowd is noticing it, you can be sure Parallax is
gearing up. The question is, where? To sell their product, they will need a market, to compete with the ones already there. They know they can count on
their constiuents, but what market will bolster their logistical profit? Intel has put a board very similar to the Galileo in the computers on the Dodge Chargers.
(looked convincing to me). The Air Force is going strong on robotics. (Drone army? :frown: ) Universities need research drones. Amateur Radio lauch their own
satellites. Nasa may need parts too. Industry needs all kinds of controllers for robotics, and PLCs. How can they land a concrete contract, while maintaing
microcontroller superiority? comments??
Heater,
You and localroger have hit some very relevant points.
AISI if Parallax wants so much to stay in the education part of this field they are getting a bit out of line pushing the propeller and spin so hard.
I have seen over and over people posing a problem that, IMO, could more easily and understandably be solved with a couple of stamps using PBasic getting pushed toward prop and spin. People that likely understand a little about programming are being told that they must jump right in to the deep end and learn something entirely new. Parallax comes off as being a salesman trying to up-sell the customer that would most likely have a more rewarding experience learning how to use what they already know in new ways.
I agree that there is a place for multi-processor chips and _some_ type of new language to push the limits of what is possible for hobbyist. I do not agree that pushing these things up front is the best tack. Unless someone specifically ask about multi-processing solutions they should be mentioned last as a possible alternative to look at.
Tim
As far as boards and/or chips go, use what makes sense in the application ... everyone has different skills, requirements, and preferences.
Thanks for the clarification. I am a fan of Martin_H, but that doesn't mean I have been able to follow everything he has been doing:) As far as creating a complete library for the Arduino, I would predict help will come from that side of the divide!!! And it should be free... almost. Maybe there is a grad student at MIT that needs a project... that's were Processing came from, why not?
I think we need a big welcome mat (forum) ... and some free advertising, courtesy of Google.com.
"Heater?"... I don't know why "Heater" sticks in my brain so much... just sort of falls out... like candy at a parade.
Rich
:frown: Well, then the only thing left to do, is to pray to the Parallax Gods that they might bestow another microntroller blessing to us. Would be nice!!! Can not Wait!!!!
I resisted moving to the Propeller from the BS2 until recently. For some things a BS2 gets the job done but for others you need a Propeller. I myself prefer Spin because it's similar to PBASIC and I will eventually learn PASM. The BS2 is not going away and neither is the Propeller but I know nothing about Arduinos and others. I personally think their fads. I also think it's better to teach the use of subroutines rather than call some abstract library. You learn better writing by reading other people's writing so why not learn better programing by seeing other people's programs or library functions.
I was never good at Ladder logic so a Propeller PLC would be awesome not to mention the fact that PLCs are so damn expensive.
The designer of the Hydra had a good point about the programmers of early PCs learned to get around the limits of the hardware and the software. I especially remember C64 programmers created demos doing the same thing as the much more powerful Amiga.
I very much like this forum and hope nothing messes it up for me.
It's good because of the help that is given anytime I ask for help!
I'm afraid of change
GREAT SITE! Thanks for the info! NOW, I can get some work done! The cheap way to control motors; industrial, I do not know. :nerd:
Since I didn't know what a micro-controller was before I came here, you would probably guess I have never heard of a logic ladder...
5 minutes later, I have an idea, ... picoplc is free, so let's take a look.
Nothing but exe and dll's... and I'm on a Mac. And I use my pc for nothing... no browsing... no downloading... nothing but my CNC and my Prop2.
It sounds intriguing. How about a video?
Rich
We must embrace change, but not systemic change every millisecond; the learning curve would be impossible! Having improving systems that build on the last
one, forms a learning curve that is gentle, familiar, and productive. I think Parallax has done that. Start at the begining, and work your way up. What will
parallax do next? ( I am dying here!)
http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php/156325-New-Product!-Robot-Shield-with-Arduino
Next .... ?