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Kickstarter: Cheapest CnC-mill yet? — Parallax Forums

Kickstarter: Cheapest CnC-mill yet?

GadgetmanGadgetman Posts: 2,436
edited 2014-05-27 22:38 in General Discussion
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/makesmithcnc/makesmith-cnc-the-most-affordable-desktop-cnc-rout

That's $195 + shipping for a kit.
Just add a Dremel or similar tool and you have a complete desktop CnC-mill.

There's still 15 days and 270 kits left.
(The designers have set a limit of 25 Early bird and 500 normal kits to avoid being overwhelmed)

They're using small servos and threaded rods, and claim a repeatability of 0.1 - 0.5mm depending on feed-rate and material.

Should be big enough to make small robot parts.
(In wood and plastic only. Its not strong enough for metals)
It should even be capable of making PCBs as long as you don't use anything smaller than 1205 SMT components.

Comments

  • GordonMcCombGordonMcComb Posts: 3,366
    edited 2014-05-25 16:49
    That's just a little smaller than the one I've used for the past 12 years, and I've found it handles most of the projects I need to do.

    I'd be a little concerned about *dimensional stress* tolerance, caused by the lighter weight construction materials used in the frame. There is a surprising amount of deflection that happens when the cutter bears into even softish material. Accuracy specs are often just stated as the mechanical tolerances involved, rather than actual measured (didn't read the KS page; maybe they say). It's a pain to have to slow down the feed rate so much it's a chore to cut out even a small piece.

    But this looks good. Wish they had it when I was in the market -- I spent $3,000 on mine!

    I did read on their KS page one of the creators is finishing his degree at UC Santa Cruz. Go Banana Slugs!
  • GadgetmanGadgetman Posts: 2,436
    edited 2014-05-25 23:52
    The mechanisms is based on servos(9gram, I think) with additional gearing to drive threaded rods.
    This doesn't exactly make it the fastest machine on the market. but... The low speed should help alleviate some of the deflection...
    (I believe the repeatability was a measured number. )

    It shouldn't be too difficult to 'shore up' the frame a bit if it acts too wobbly, either.

    I'm 'on the fence' about it, yet.
    not to buy it for myself(I'm slowly, very slowly, putting together a ShapeOko for myself), but it might just do as a present for my nephew.
    (I'm his godfather, it's my duty to spoil him, and besides, I gave his sister the 3Doodler last christmas. Got to top that somehow... )
  • Martin_HMartin_H Posts: 4,051
    edited 2014-05-26 07:03
    I think rigidity will be a problem. It's actually quite amazing how something that seems pretty solid will bend under load.
  • GordonMcCombGordonMcComb Posts: 3,366
    edited 2014-05-26 08:12
    Didn't catch they were using 9 gram servos. Those are tiny, and won't last long. I'm sure they're part of the low cost, but there are only a couple servos and improving those would go a long way to providing a better user experience. They could do a $295 machine and it would still be inexpensive in the eyes of most.
  • GadgetmanGadgetman Posts: 2,436
    edited 2014-05-26 10:06
    Hm... no...
    9gram servos aren't tiny... 3.7grams on the other hand, those are tiny.
    And 1.5gram servos has passed all the way into ridiculous.

    $295 would be a 50% price increase.
    Now they're keeping the initial outlay as low as possible to make it affordable by just about anyone.
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,256
    edited 2014-05-26 10:34
    Agreed, 9 gram servos can barely get out of their own way. I can't imagine even a standard size servo strong or durable enough for a CNC application. Those cheap little Ebay steppers might almost work if not for their excessive backlash.

    OTOH, 9g servos couldn't generate enough force to flex the housing, so you needn't lose sleep over that issue. :)
  • GordonMcCombGordonMcComb Posts: 3,366
    edited 2014-05-26 11:34
    9 gram is certainly tiny for the application. I don't see a reason to have used anything less than a standard size servo. You're talking just a few dollars more, and these are routinely available in (still low cost) all metal gear versions. These 9g servos are going to strip out quickly. I think customers will be unhappy after the first few weeks of use. if they're the typical ones from non-brand Chinese exporters, they use the same kind of DC motors on the cheapest dollar store toys.

    Hopefully they'll offer an upgrade package. The servos are a turn-off enough for me to not even bother to look.
  • W9GFOW9GFO Posts: 4,010
    edited 2014-05-26 14:56
    I would discourage putting any money into a hobby servo based CNC. Especially one that uses cheap 9g servos. They are not designed with reliability in mind and are certainly not intended for continuos duty. I think they are trying to go too cheap, if they had used some decent DC motors I could get behind it, I doubt it would have raised their cost much more than $50, if that.
  • GadgetmanGadgetman Posts: 2,436
    edited 2014-05-27 00:32
    The creator reports to 'running his machine for hours every day' without burning out any of the servos.
    One of his earliest posts)
  • W9GFOW9GFO Posts: 4,010
    edited 2014-05-27 01:18
    Gadgetman wrote: »
    The creator reports to 'running his machine for hours every day' without burning out any of the servos...

    Perhaps that is completely true. Is it worth the price if it lasts six months? A year? These days people seem to be quite content purchasing cheap stuff, then not getting too upset when it fails. But the market has spoken, their campaign is successful. I must be wrong.
  • GordonMcCombGordonMcComb Posts: 3,366
    edited 2014-05-27 07:47
    Gadgetman wrote: »
    The creator reports to 'running his machine for hours every day' without burning out any of the servos.

    I might walk onto the street in heavy traffic and manage not to get hit. Doesn't mean it's a good idea.
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,256
    edited 2014-05-27 08:59
    The young makers appear energetic and sincere in their KS video. I wish them good luck in their venture.

    That said, the video also shows a fair amount of imprecision in the mechanism, from whirling (bent) allthread rod to wobbling/misaligned gears. All the video is marked "sped up". Designing to a price point is very challenging, to say the least. They expect to take up some slop in software; as the servo gears wear that will get more challenging.

    Per the old saying: "Pick two: cheap, fast, or accurate."
  • RDL2004RDL2004 Posts: 2,554
    edited 2014-05-27 09:11
    Indeed, though I always heard it as "Choose any two: cheap, fast, good"

    Project management triangle

    455px-Project-triangle.svg.png
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,256
    edited 2014-05-27 14:16
    Modding a real milling machine to add steppers would end up with a much more robust CNC. Since this whole thing is a kit anyway, how about sell an "upgrade kit" to add to a specified machine to make it CNC? Harbor Fright has one for ~$450 if you use your 20% coupon :http://www.harborfreight.com/two-speed-variable-bench-mill-drill-machine-44991.html And of course there are some cheapies on Ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mini-Milling-Machine-DIY-Tool-Metal-Wood-Working-For-Student-Hobby-Modelmaking-/251485088260?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a8dadea04#ht_6780wt_1166

    It would be heresy if I suggested hacking up a vintage and vaunted Emco Unimat, so I won't bother. I have one of those somewhere in all my stuff.

    Video shows one such modified: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48ic5yN8r4g
  • W9GFOW9GFO Posts: 4,010
    edited 2014-05-27 14:31
    RDL2004 wrote: »
    Indeed, though I always heard it as "Choose any two: cheap, fast, good"

    The problem is that too many products only choose one, the "cheap" criteria.
  • GordonMcCombGordonMcComb Posts: 3,366
    edited 2014-05-27 15:35
    erco wrote: »
    Modding a real milling machine to add steppers would end up with a much more robust CNC.

    Yeah., but this is a milling CNC, and the KS project is for a computer-controlled router, which can be less robust. There's a line between robust and just plain bust, though.

    These days successful Kickstarters gotta have a gimmick. This one went for cheap, and I think it's a bit too cheap. For (say) $100 or $150 more they might have built a better buggy, and then "sold" the uniqueness by making it a combo CNC router and 3D printer base, for example. Unhook the router and attach an auger (available separately) for feeding plastic.

    Unless these 9g servos in the suspiciously familair blue plastic casings are actually high-end Maxon motors or something, no way will the units hold up after much use, regardless of the luck of the prototype. The blue-cased 9g motors from China are probably the cheapest servos on the planet. Not sure even you are that cheap, Erco!
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2014-05-27 22:38
    In many ways, Kickstarter is the antithesis of EBay... mainly for punters.

    There is no warranty. You have to wait for the product to sort out production. And if funding doesn't come through, your order is canceled.

    On the other hand, EBay allows one to explore cheap as well.

    My own preference for tool purchases is for something that is sturdy and will last a long time. I may not use it much in the beginning, but there may come a day when it will have to work hard to pay for itself many times over. Junk will just never pay for itself.... merely an educational device.
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