Lithium polymer battery pack swelled inside portable tv

Don M

I have a Digital Labs 7" portable digital tv that I pretty much only use in the summer outside on the patio. Tonight I dug it out of the drawer after having been stored all winter and to my surprise the case was all swelled.

I took it apart and found that the Li-Po battery was all swelled. It cracked the LCD screen from the pressure. The power was in the off position and no it was not left plugged in to charge all winter. I'm wondering if there was a chance of fire or something else catastrophic? I removed the battery and the tv still comes on as you can see in the picture but now has a big void where it is cracked.

The battery pack consists of 2- 7.4 volt 2200mah batteries in series. There are 3 wires going to the charger circuitry so I'm guessing they tried to do some sort of balanced charging.

Too bad as it was a handy little tv...

erco

That is a dramatic failure and may well have been a fire risk if it had punctured and shorted out on something conductive. Those Lipos are handy but IMO not ready for prime time, especially sealed inside something where they are non-removeable and non-replaceable. Most of us have had the unpleasant experience of a Lipo dying inside a sealed unit, but your TV swelling & breaking is a whole new failure mode, and a dangerous one at that. Glad there wasn't any more drama to your story. RIP, TV.

RDL2004

Wow, I have one of those TVs. I guess I better open it up and take a look just in case.

Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)

Get it outside -- now! There's still an extreme fire hazard with that battery.

-Phil

whicker

yep... all these products with lithium batteries.
Stuffed in drawers, attics, and in boxes in garages and basements.
All drawing down the charge separating two sides that vigorously want to meet.
silently... continuously... inevitably...

LoopyByteloose

This link below might be somewhat helpful........ but I guess all moth-balled lithium cell devices need a fire safe storage location.

Boeing is once again having concerns about their use of lithium cells on their Dreamliners, so be conservative and safe.

The reality is that anything that increases energy density in any storage media comes with an increased hazard.

http://seattletimes.com/html/businesstechnology/2023671237_ntsbfaabatteriesxml.html

Disposal method....
http://konarcflyers.com/Lipo-Disposal.pdf

prof_braino

If its good enough for Boeing, its good enough for everyone. Oh wait, the NTSB seems to have taken exception with this one.

Rule of thumb: don't let people you value alive fly in 787 until the version AFTER the major incident. It will be a short wait.

Mark_T

I've read that one safe disposal technique for swollen LiPo cells is to drop them in a bucket of saltwater kept outside,
which discharges them and prevents heat buildup and fire. Apparently after a few weeks they are then inert, but I
confess I don't know why that should be the case.

Swollen cells are damaged and dangerous and need attention.

LiPo cells should be stored in a fireproof location with about 50% charge I believe, and checked every so often.

pmrobert

I found my emergency 7" LCD TV the exact same way last week while I was checking my hurricane supply package. That's somewhat alarming that just the relatively small community here has experienced similar issues.

Don M

I had done a little searching to see if there was any talk about this elsewhere or any recalls, etc. but didn't find anything. Sort of surprises me in a way...

Too_Many_Tools

FYI...

http://news.yahoo.com/report-faa-too-reliant-boeing-battery-test-160413178--finance.html

evanh

The old type Lithium-Cobalt's should be entirely removed from the market. Aside from the horrible thermal issues they also have horrible lifespans in general. Everyone ends up being disappointed because the initial good capacity fades so quickly. There is far better lithium options readily available these days. Sometimes a device may advertise as having a long-life battery, these will be using a newer lithium tech.

PS: Yes, the Boeing 787 batteries are using the very same proven bad Lithium-Cobalt tech.

LoopyByteloose

Unfortunately, I have seen a lot of electric bicycles with Lithium Cobalt cells for sale out of China. It seems to be a backlog of stock and they are often mentioned as Lithium Ion or Lithium polymer or LePO4... mis-representations of which Lithium chemistry abound as the sales people have no idea of the significances. Some times it is obvious at the number of cells and their rated aggregate voltage output cannot be achieved the chemistry they claim to be selling.

One can only wait for delivery and crack open the battery case to discover what has arrived.

++++++++++++++++
On the issue of these lithium soft packs...
I thought these were safer just because they swell without a hard containment. But I can't be sure that piercing any defective cell is a wise thing to do.

The idea of soaking the cell in salt water is rather simple chemistry. Salt water is an ionic solution, so it conducts electricity and will discharge the battery.

IF there is no dramatic chemical reaction between the salt and the existing electrolyte, it is a reasonable way to go. BUT, the way to avoid a dramatic chemical reaction is to fully and safely discharge the lithium cell BEFORE you pierce the package and soak in salt water. YOU CANNOT just immerse it in salt water and puncture... bad things might happen !!!!!!

See here
http://konarcflyers.com/Lipo-Disposal.pdf
for a link on how one fellow claims to do this all safely.

WHAT DO I THINK?
If you have a bloated lithium cell, it might be VERY WISE to do a controlled and complete discharge of the cell before passing it on to anyone for final disposal. The hazard is in the amount of stored energy that seems to have reached an unstable state.

It may or may not be necessary to go the extra steps to puncture the package and soak it in a salt brine. That does make a mess and adds all the containers and the brine solution to your disposal problem. Plus you expose yourself to chemical fumes and contamination. IOW, keep it simple and as safe as possible.

prof_braino

If anybody has defective cells I would be interested in video of the "wrong way", such puncturing and dumping in salt water while charged.

Would puncturing with a conductive material immediately start a run away thermal event or something?

twm47099

In post 8, I didn't read anything about puncturing the package. I think it is to only discharge the cells (shorting them in an ionic solution) while keeping them from overheating. You probably need a fairly large container of salt water - too small could result in boiling the water and risking rapid steam release along with bad things from the LIPO package.

The question I have is once the LIPOs are fully discharged are they then safe?

Tom

LoopyByteloose

Yes, in Post #8, the poster says just throw the cell in a bucket of salt water and leave for a few weeks. I personally think a full discharged Lithium cell would be a lot safer than a bloated one that has a charge on it. ... even if the full charged one is sitting in a bucket of salt water.

A chemist might give a long winded explanation about exo-thermic chemical reactions, the ability of lithium to burn in air, and other factors. But at the end of the day, it doesn't make sense for me to take on the responsiblity for becoming an amature chemist and breaking open batteries unless the circumstances are absolutely dire.

I found another link that actually says to first discharge the cell, disassemble the battery, make deep slashes in the fully discharged lithium cell, and then place in salt water. I feel that goes a step too far into dangerous territory.

My point is that the first option does nothing certain to remove the stored electricity in the cell; while the second option does too much when he gets involved in disassembly and slashing.

_______________
I think that discharging the cell slowly down to 0 volts it the best choice. Then maybe shorting the wires and marking the cell useless. I don't see why the cell that is fully discharged would be a fire hazard unless someone tries to recharge it. Plus, there is an advantage of keeping the sealed cell intact to avoid leaking chemicals or toxic fumes. And I don't see why one needs to make a chemical mess that needs more effort to properly dispose.

Forget the whole dunking in salt water proceedure. Just put a resistor load on the cell that will slowly bring down the voltage. Then submit the device to your friendly battery disposal authority for proper handling.

The internet has an answer for everything. Sadly, too many people write up stuff that might do more harm than good.

Here is a bit of history about why people fear a fireball from lithium batteries.

A. Lithium metal will burn in air

B. Early lithium batteries did produce flammable gases that would cause a dramatic failure. And even recent 'perfectly safe lithium cells' have caused fires.

http://www.avweb.com/blogs/insider/AVWebInsider_Batteries_206994-1.html

The problem is there are so many different lithium chemistries these days, the average user has no idea if he is using a safe or a dangerous one or if any are really safe.

Nonetheless, people are doing the salt water immersion. It is up to you to think it through if you do. That solution is no longer just salt water, it is a hazardous waste to be disposed of properly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ5PNG_niBs

LoopyByteloose

prof_braino wrote: »

If anybody has defective cells I would be interested in video of the "wrong way", such puncturing and dumping in salt water while charged.

Would puncturing with a conductive material immediately start a run away thermal event or something?

Here is one video of how to set fire to one... via overcharging. The second video is an idiotic disassembly and immersion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-AoAYrEy-o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7abq34mckg