Thumbs up, Thumbs down
Todd Marshall
Posts: 89
This is probably one of the best forum implementations I have seen and used on the web.
Has a thumbs up/ thumbs down feature so common in other implementations been suggested here?
I need to put myself in the peanut gallery for most discussions for several reasons: 1) Takes too much time to keep up with; 2) Self imposed lack of standing; 3) Others have said the same thing I would say.
A simple thumbs up/thumbs down facility would:
1) Allow me to contribute in a democratic way.
2) Allow someone to contribute in an anonymous way (but I personally never seek anonymity)
3) Comments that swerve off in the wrong direction may get headed off before they consume too much energy.
Just asking.
Has a thumbs up/ thumbs down feature so common in other implementations been suggested here?
I need to put myself in the peanut gallery for most discussions for several reasons: 1) Takes too much time to keep up with; 2) Self imposed lack of standing; 3) Others have said the same thing I would say.
A simple thumbs up/thumbs down facility would:
1) Allow me to contribute in a democratic way.
2) Allow someone to contribute in an anonymous way (but I personally never seek anonymity)
3) Comments that swerve off in the wrong direction may get headed off before they consume too much energy.
Just asking.
Comments
I'm not sure I even like the stars on threads and members here.
Say what you have to say. Your standing lives or dies by that. If indeed "standing" is important.
Let's not have the "tyranny or the majority".
You are suggesting the ability to some how up vote or down vote comments without making any statement or contribution yourself.
Wow, that simple thing turns a forum of peers into a Eurovision Song Contest.
Perhaps there is a reason why "This is probably one of the best forum implementations...".
No, jump into the school yard, get beaten up, come out better off.
However I have noticed that such people soon give up and drop out. They get very frustrated when nobody talks to them.
Thumbs up/down works for stackoverflow.com Q&A. They also tend to moderate combative ideology. I see stackoverflow.com as a nice resource for Q&A because the +1's float to the top and I can look at the other answers also to decide for myself if there is redeeming value there.
This forum however has become more than a support Q&A forum, and it is heavily pitched by ideology. It is very hard to tell if thumbs up/down ala stackoverflow.com would be effective here.
However, an anonymous up/down would allow people to vote their conscious instead of worrying about reprisals .... I say what I like regardless because I have that right within scope of the forum rules - then someone tries to bully me out of that right.
There is a star rating thread feature on this forum, but it is rarely used.
I'm marking the post thumbs up just because I can (I find the thread interesting). I'd like to have the right rate the thread, but apparently posting removes the rating button. ????
It is not a "forum".
Have you noticed that often the most highly rated answers on stackoverflow are actually wrong or not the optimal solution presented.
Yes.
It is up to the reader to decide if the answers are garbage or not.
No, thumbs up/down would allow some visibility into what others are thinking rather than just a few persons' opinions ;-)
Anonymity does not serve bullying.
ADDED: Not suggesting Heater is a bully. It's just that many people live in fear, and seem afraid to express an opinion publicly.
Well and humorously said, Xanadu. Ironically it reminded me of my flavorite MS advert: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lD9FAOPBiDk
-Phil
What’s needed now, of course, is a test of this idea. There are certainly social networks that allow up voting but not down voting (Medium being one of them).
And interesting question is whether it results in the same rich tapestry of opinion that clearly flourishes on social network sites that allow both types of voting. In other words, does this kind of manipulation have other consequences that Cheng and co have not yet accounted for.
Clearly, there’s interesting work ahead in teasing these things apart.
Also from the article:
That points to an obvious strategy for improving the quality of comments on any social network site. Clearly, providing negative feedback to “bad” users does not appear to be a good way of preventing undesired behaviour.
So how can unwanted behaviour the stopped? “Given that users who receive no feedback post less frequently, a potentially effective strategy could be to ignore undesired behaviour and provide no feedback at all,” say Cheng and co.
Just by looking at what I have highlighted in bold should give you concern for this article. Who's doing the "judging"?
From personal experience, I find the Amazon.com rating and commenting system very valuable. I find the simple thumbs up / thumbs down used on Zerohedge.com to be revealing. I find systems that have just thumbs up to be totally useless.
I see many serious spitting matches on Slashdot.com. I have no problem with their rating system.
And just doing a random search on the subject with Google I find there are many ways to look at the subject. https://tinyurl.com/n74bhy3
Many of us now have 3 or 4 1/2 generations of experience with systems that reward but don't punish. We see that such systems tend to reward behavior that doesn't merit awards (just because failure to reward in such systems is punishment). The rewards are not only useless, they are counter productive ... children entering "real" life being such a case in point.
But your "I don't think we want that here." begs the question "who is we". "We" all know how that works on subjects like global warming. And we all know Goodwin's law. One neat thing about the internet: It's always easy to find an argument in support of "black is white".
I suspect a thumbs up / thumbs down on this thread would reveal some clickishness if it attracted much attention (so far only 3 or 4 inputs). Again begs the question: Is clickishness a bad thing?
Re social networks: I would not view Amazon.com as a social network. I find their rating system very useful and helpful. I find I can detect abuses just fine myself and don't encourage moderation.
EDIT: And of course long posts like this tend not to be read. Who has the time?
-Tor
I'm going to suggest that there is difference between punishment and reward meted out by school teachers and that meted out by the majority of peers in the school yard. One is training in "good behaviour" according to some adult norms and the other is bullies in the yard or the tyranny of the majority, a majority that has neither experience or knowledge.
When teachers cannot punish and reward they lose control. When the school yard can punish and reward, which it can, it gains control. Sound familiar?
Further, I'm going to suggest that a forum with up votes / down votes, or indeed any internet forum, is more like the school yard than the class room.
At least here we have fine examples set by the tone of the owners.
Today, Thumbs up / Thumbs down is just a way to be popular. How many posts do you see "Like my post if you love your mom"? That is only people trying to get attention and popularity. I would be afraid that would be the result of adding thumbs up or down to the parallax forum. I can see it now, people posting not because they need help, offer advice, have something cool to offer, but just to have people "Like" there post.
I say NO! on thumbs up/down, like, or anything that someone can just click to show support of a post. If you want to support a post, take 30 seconds to put "I agree with you (forum member name)".
*EDIT*
or as other had said "+1" / "-1"
Cheers,
1) Losing sight of our objective we redoubled our efforts.
2) Forget history and you're doomed to repeat it
3) Give me control of the money and I care not who makes the laws
4) Whistle blowers are protected
5) Anonymity contributes to a free flow of ideas and placement of power
6) Anonymity detracts from the free flow of ideas and placement of power
7) I think the lady doth protest too much
8) Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn
9) The best way to deal with the opposition is to be the opposition
10) Education is credentialed knowledge. Without credentials the knowledgeable must continuously prove worth
11) Educational credentials for sale
12) If you have nothing to hide, why are you resisting this search?
13) The emperor has no clothes
14) This discourse needs to stop post haste. It's counterproductive.
15) A camel is a horse designed by a committee
16) Optimize early ... arrive late
17) We have too much invested in our method (philosophy) to change it
18) Oh fork it
19) The squeaky wheel gets the grease
20) Speak softly and carry a big stick
21) You can get anything done if you don't care who gets the credit
22) Would the Quebec bridge have fallen if thumbs up / thumbs down was allowed?
23) 97.231% of all statistics are made up on the spot
24) He lost every battle but won the war
25) He won every battle but lost the war
26) He never went to battle. The city was lost without a shot being fired.
27) He never fights, but there always seems to be a fight when he is there
28) We have met the enemy and he is us
29) Its cheaper to pay the protection money than to fight the mafia
30) Keep them in the dark and feed them guano
31) Security through obscurity
32) To be secure, the method used must be open and known to all
33) The NSA's most powerful decryption tool is installation of the back door.
This is not an exhaustive list and they all don't apply equally towards evaluating the suggestion of this thread ... but they all do apply in some measure.
And informal tabulation on this suggestion:
Thumbs up: 7
Thumbs down: 15
Heater contributions (thumbs down): 6
Todd contributions (thumbs up) 4
Cost of trying it: In my opinion, more than it's worth. But then will we ever know? I started out by saying this was one of the best Forum implementations I had seen on the internet. This was despite the fact that it had no useful method of assessing / garnering support for a position. But if I implemented this Forum, it would trivial to add it ... and trivial to disable it. Not being the implementer, it wouldn't be worth my trouble.
If there is anyone else out there like me ... who has significant knowledge and experience on the subject but lacks detailed knowledge of the Propeller implementation in particular, I suspect they are with me: Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn. And as Heater predicted ... they quietly go away. Mission accomplished.
I get the feeling you have some curiosity regarding the Propeller and/or other Parallax products but are some how frustrated at not finding information or getting your questions answered.
Is that what this is all about? Just stabbing in the dark here, forgive me if I'm wrong.
I'm sure if you have any questions they will be answered and stimulate a discussion as they usually do. Just ask away. Most folks here just love to be helpful.
And this is why I am grateful for the moderators and Parallax. They don't just change/add something because its what others are doing, or they think it would be a cool idea. They do what the community wants. Because unlike the other sites, Parallax cares.
And what the community wants is determined how?
Parallax cares: So, are you saying we are replowing old ground here? That Parallax has already weighed in on the subject and that's why the feature is not used?
It's always busy. It seems to attract some very smart people. I see people praising this forum all the time. Notably for it's polite and helpful contributors.
I see no particular need to be changing it or adding bells and whistles. The common story is that any change is hated by many and can have unexpected and disastrous consequences.
We might ask "What is this forum for?". I'm guessing it's primarily a support forum for Parallax products. As such it works very well. It is not primarily a social network and definitely not advertising medium.
How can we can know?
Parallax changed the forum software years ago. That was a major disruption in my mind. I must conclude that they made a choice they were happy to support for years on end.
It is unlikely they will change the basic software just to allow an up/down feature. Parallax can't just throw money at problems.
I suggest that the thread star voting system and post icons (advanced editor) should be used. Also, it seems the poll thing offers anonymous voting, so that can be used as well. None of these options are automatic .... Of course if they were automatic they wouldn't be options.
Let's use what we have to our best advantage, and not be too concerned about things we don't have unless we can make them happen.
On top of that a lot of the topics that members disagree on are too complex for a simplistic thumbs up/down vote.
BTW - I do think the folks who started Twitter came up with the perfect name. After reading a few tweets I came to the conclusion that its mostly twits that tweet on twitter.