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A bit of decorum on these threads please... — Parallax Forums

A bit of decorum on these threads please...

Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 18,069
edited 2014-05-18 12:16 in Propeller 2
We are all very priviledged to be able to be involved with Chips design.

AFAIK no other company has enabled open discussion of ideas on a Chip design.

Frankly, some on this forum are openly criticising Chip, Ken and therefore Parallax for not getting the New Chip out sooner. Some doen't even have a basic understanding of P1.

Many huge companies take many years to get their products out. But rarely do you know the whole storybecause most companies keep designs under wraps for most of the design cycle. As a product nears completion, sometimes features are released to a few special customers under an NDA.

Parallax has done the opposite, with frank and open discussions.

The overall tone of this forum has been unworthy of the privilege we have been given. I have personally learnt so much about chip design that I never knew before.

Please refrain from all the negative posts. If you disagree with something, back it up with real information, not FUD.
Please respect everyone here, but especially our hosts - Chip, Ken and Parallax.

If you don't, then expect the remainder of the design to be done behind closed doors with a select few.

I always try to back my thoughts with real info. Sometimes I fail. That unfortunately this is ahuman failing.

I will start it off by saying if I have offended anyone, then I am extremely sorry. It was not intended. I have made some great friends on this site, most of which I have never met. We have had some fantastic discussions and despite designing and programming system for more than 40 years, I have learnt so much. There is always something to learn.

Comments

  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 18,069
    edited 2014-05-17 02:37
    Sorry abou the typos, etc in the previos post. It's impossible to fix them from my android/xoom tablet.

    Take Care,
    Ray
  • potatoheadpotatohead Posts: 10,261
    edited 2014-05-17 02:47
    You and that tablet Cluso! I struggle with a Droid phone sometimes too.

    Yeah, seconded. Easily. Of course, you are good. Nobody really means it to go badly. I believe that. We just have strong thoughts about it, and those strong thoughts come from the open process, which I feel the same way about.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2014-05-17 02:57
    Hear, hear!
  • Brian FairchildBrian Fairchild Posts: 549
    edited 2014-05-17 03:34
    Cluso99 wrote: »
    Please refrain from all the negative posts. If you disagree with something, back it up with real information, not FUD.

    Agreed, BUT, it has to work both ways. People posting positive views must also be prepared to back up their statements with hard information and be prepared to have that information tested and questioned.

    Likewise, if Parallax want a genuinely open discussion they must be prepared to take any (valid) criticism on the chin and respond to it.
  • David BetzDavid Betz Posts: 14,516
    edited 2014-05-17 05:22
    Cluso99 wrote: »
    We are all very priviledged to be able to be involved with Chips design.
    You're right of course. I'm not sure what I said last night but I'm mainly saying that I've run out of energy to follow the fast-paced discussions that are happening in the P2 forums. As it turns out, my job got a lot busier at about the same time as the discussions here exploded and I've been unable to follow them in any detail. That means that I probably don't understand the process by which the P2 design is evolving or even any changes in direction it might have taken. I agree that we are privileged to be able to watch and even participate in this process. I think part of my frustration is that I don't have enough time to fully participate. I don't doubt that Chip will come up with an interesting chip although probably not the one I was hoping he'd create. However, there is no guarantee that the features I want would make the chip sell better. I'm sure it will be interesting though and at least the current P1 users will spend endless years learning to use it effectively. I'm afraid I'm one of the people who has a limited understanding of P1 so my comments on P2 probably aren't worth much especially in areas of deterministic behavior or video generation. I'll just wait and see what happens and maybe in the meantime learn more about P1. Thanks Parallax for the opportunity to watch this process. Sorry that I get frustrated on occasion!
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2014-05-17 06:47
    David,
    That means that I probably don't understand the process by which the P2 design is evolving...
    No worries. Nobody out here does.

    From what I have observed Chip invited us to contribute preferences, ideas, solutions, suggestions. Starting from the simple question "more COGs or more RAM?" some years ago.

    Suggestions came in their thousands, as we might expect with hindsight, and some of them were worked into the PII design.

    The PII grew and grew, every step along the way being just a "trivial" addition.

    Eventually it became a monster with a 1000 obscure opcodes that no normal human being would ever comprehend. Essentially unusable. Whilst at the same time requiring it's own power station to run it.

    Yes, yes, I'm exaggerating a little there.

    Now, you have to admire the cojones of Chip to hit the reset button on that and go back to basics. Or as they say in Finnish "sisu". That thing that you need to have when all the odds are a against you and you need a lot of perseverance to continue. (Think Fins trashing the mighty Russians in the winter war of 1939)

    I am guilty of contributing this mess also. Having suggested automatic thread scheduling at some point in the proceedings.

    My guess is that things are now on a much more lean and mean track, lessons having been learned along the way.

    On a positive note. I'm totally blown away by Chip and Roy's new shared memory arbiter. Has anything like that been done before?
  • Roy ElthamRoy Eltham Posts: 3,000
    edited 2015-07-01 22:45
    Cluso,
    Agreed, and sorry if I ****** anyone off along the way here also.

    Heater,
    It's not too far different from how some GPUs do things to get more memory bandwidth... They tend to call it a 256bit or 384bit bus, but it's really a bunch of 32bit ones each going to different banks of memory.
  • rod1963rod1963 Posts: 752
    edited 2014-05-17 09:17
    Cluso

    The comportment of the posters on this board have been quite restrained. I see nothing out of bounds written by any poster.

    Sure there has been criticism of the open design process because of what happened when a bunch of inner circle gurus threw in everything but the kitchen sink and the poor processor died from bloat and overheating like some horrid glutton at a all you can eat buffet. It was quite amusing to watch in the same way a Monty Python skit or Dilbert strip is funny - illustrating the absurdity of people in action.

    I'm sorry but you have to have a thick skin and a sense of humor for this sort of stuff.

    But it's the price paid when you bring in people with their own agenda and pet ideas. Everything but the kitchen sink gets added and it did.

    Seriously, it is.

    Ever hear the old joke that a Camel is a horse designed by a committee?

    Now some posters see the same thing happening again and made their concerns public given that the same crew who that sunk the last design are busy giving advice again. Other posters bring up issues like commercial viability or even flaws in the Prop architecture. Nothing out of the ordinary nor rude about these aspects being brought up.

    They should be unless you just want a echo chamber of fanbois.

    And like Brian said if Parallax wants a open board on the design of their new processor they should be able to handle any valid criticism and concerns by the user community. If they can't they can simply put up a forum for insiders and gurus only. That way they will hear only what they want to hear.
  • KMyersKMyers Posts: 433
    edited 2014-05-17 09:37
    AMEN!! I try to stay out of these discussions but they have been getting to me. I say let Chip and Ken do their things and we will use whatever they come up with....and be happy!!!
  • kwinnkwinn Posts: 8,697
    edited 2014-05-17 09:48
    +1 to Ken's sentiment. I don't think I have posted anything that would be offensive to anyone, but if someone has taken offense to one of my posts, please forgive me. None was intended.
    KMyers wrote: »
    AMEN!! I try to stay out of these discussions but they have been getting to me. I say let Chip and Ken do their things and we will use whatever they come up with....and be happy!!!
  • David BetzDavid Betz Posts: 14,516
    edited 2014-05-17 13:04
    KMyers wrote: »
    AMEN!! I try to stay out of these discussions but they have been getting to me. I say let Chip and Ken do their things and we will use whatever they come up with....and be happy!!!
    I'm not sure that is what Chip wants. He invited ideas and suggestions and I think he's implemented some of them as well. I guess we just need to realize that not everything that we suggest will make it into the chip. Maybe he'll refute this but I don't think he wants us to remain silent.
  • KMyersKMyers Posts: 433
    edited 2014-05-17 14:10
    Promised myself I would not say any more but...
    I am sure Chip wanted ideas and NOT the bad feelings this has generated. We all have preferences we want to see add to the new chip. But leave it to us it would become very bloated a lot like windows.

    I am not the person to even offer an opinion on this chip but I am interested in what happens to it and to Parallax.

    I will be quiet now and go back to lurking and watching!!:nerd:
  • edited 2014-05-17 15:03
    Cluso99 wrote: »
    If you don't, then expect the remainder of the design to be done behind closed doors with a select few.

    At this point I believe that closing the doors on further discussion to all but a select few would be a reasonable course of action.

    Sandy
  • koehlerkoehler Posts: 598
    edited 2014-05-17 16:28
    At this point I believe that closing the doors on further discussion to all but a select few would be a reasonable course of action.

    Sandy

    And, had they done that maybe a month or two ago, its quite likely the insiders would have been the echo chamber that pushed it ahead into production...
    No one knows whether that would have been ultimately revenue generating, or a loss.

    However, being open and allowing 'negative' postings may have just given Chip/Ken a reality check.

    From all the forums I've seen or been on, I have to agree with Rod, this is easily the tamest, and honestly, most lock-step cult of personality one outside of Apple.
    If someone wants to interpret that as mean, then I'm not going to waste my time trying to disuade them.

    Unless someone is being actually profane, or deliberately being a serial troll, being 'Open' means you have to not only be ready to receive the never-ending fawning accolades, but the occasional gripe or pointing out of failures.
    Ken runs a multi-milllion dollar business with 70 employees, and Chip has had people questioning him for almost a decade on the feasbility or not, of the Prop, s/w peripherals, etc.
    I happen to think they're both intelligent, and thick-skinned enough to handle anything thrown at them with aplomb. They certainly have so far.

    Parallax has an On-Call Mod Squad to hose people down when needed. If they aren't moderating, then its just possible that someone has too thin a skin, or might better be served here.

    Or, Parallax can avoid all of this by moving to a closed echo-chamber of its most loyal followers. That'll undoubtedly speed up the decision making....[/Sarcasm]
  • jazzedjazzed Posts: 11,803
    edited 2014-05-17 16:33
    At this point I believe that closing the doors on further discussion to all but a select few would be a reasonable course of action.

    Sandy


    Suggesting Pandora's hope?
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2014-05-17 18:44
    What makes this forum interesting and lively is the diversity of personalities and priorities. Suppressing irascibility and high dudgeon is unhealthy. I would not change a thing -- and I say this both as a contributor and as a moderator. Any animosity manifest here is merely transient. If we were all in the same room together, I'm certain that we would all be friends with a common bond.

    -Phil
  • edited 2014-05-17 22:03
    jazzed wrote: »
    Suggesting Pandora's hope?

    There might still be hope if you can get the lid on quickly enough.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2014-05-18 00:02
    Cluso,
    If you don't, then expect the remainder of the design to be done behind closed doors with a select few.

    How would that happen exactly?

    Would the P2 threads and/or sub forum be locked down?
    Would "disagreeable" members be locked out / banned from the forum?
    Would Chip stop reading these threads.?
    Would Ken take Chip's internet connection away?
    Would Chip simply stop posting his notifications of progress?

    I think none of those things is likely. It would take a major catastrophe to cause any one of them. Conversely it would be a major catastrophe if they happened.

    I do agree, decorum on the forum Gentlemen please.
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2014-05-18 01:39
    heater wrote:
    I do agree, decorum on the forum Gentlemen please.
    Gentlemen?!! I say! To whom is that pejorative directed, good Sir?

    -Phil
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2014-05-18 01:50
    "Sir", who you callin' "Sir"?

    I find a bit a decorum here and there is OK occasionally but too much soon get's boring:)
  • JRetSapDoogJRetSapDoog Posts: 954
    edited 2014-05-18 01:50
    Did someone call for more rum in the forum? To be specific, "the core rum," from the cores of sugarcane, apparently (I had to look that up). Have we outgrown the opium den, then? Ah, it was probably the opium den that precipitated the new hub configuration (Steve Jobs might argue so, not that I would agree with him or have any experience with that to judge). Now, we need something less hallucinogenic to flesh the thing out, hence breaking out the core rum.

    On a more serious note, I agree with Phil about the desirability of keeping the forum "lively." But I have noticed that some people tend to be quite argumentative. And some of those people are the most knowledgeable and experienced among us. I find that regrettable.

    I've noticed a tendency to jump on people for just choosing the wrong word and so on. It is not surprising, though, as what interaction I've had with technical people has convinced me that maybe one-third to a half of them are often difficult, to say the least. Well, there's a 5-letter word that starts with 'p' that, in so-called vulgar usage, means "a person regarded as highly unpleasant, especially a male" (www.thefreedictionary.com). I've been a p-word at times, just not on a full-time basis. I still hate it in others, though. But then I'm too sensitive. Anyway, we really do sometimes need thick skins in here. Not having face-to-face contact really exacerbates misunderstandings and misbehavior.

    You know, just because you know something or you're right (or the other person is wrong or not being logical based on your version of logic) doesn't mean that you have to be a p-word about it. I think that's one of the things we admire in Chip: although he's quite sharp and accomplished, he's not a p-word about it; quite the opposite.

    By the way, I don't think the p-word I'm avoiding is offensive. It perfectly describes the type of person I'm talking about (and which we've likely all been at one time or another). And the mental feeling we experience dealing with p-word types is similar to the unpleasant physical feeling one feels when one impels an appendage on a sharp object, the standard usage of the word. But the dictionary (I checked) doesn't show the meaning I'm using as a standard meaning, but only as a slang/vulgar meaning, hence my self-censorship. Anyway, let's not be a bunch of p-words.

    By the way, my reference to being "right" reminds me of a moving scene from an episode of Everybody Loves Raymond, in which father and son continue to thrash it out after a strong disagreement over what color to paint Ray's house. This should be an award-winning scene in my opinion. Peter Boyle (Frank, Raymond's father) -- now deceased, so thank God for his lasting contribution -- gives an amazing performance bouncing off the equally exquisite acting of Ray Romano (Raymond, Frank's son). For anyone interested, a link to the full show is below, but the main action of the scene goes from the 17:25 point to the end of the scene at 19:42, with the scene starting at 16:02 (recommended, if you have time).

    Everybody Loves Raymond: Frank Paints the House S5E24: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVSPg7dq3wA <
    16:02/17:25 -to- 19:42

    It's good to be right. But it's not the only thing. Oh, and, like Ray does at the beginning of the scene, it doesn't hurt to humble oneself and say "I'm sorry" on occasion. It's good for the soul and helps us to avoid being p-words in the future. Lastly, I love Frank's line, "Being right is all that matters; everything else is Smile!" Of course, I don't agree with it, but I love how he expressed what he was feeling.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2014-05-18 02:03
    JRetSapDoog,
    ...as what interaction I've had with technical people has convinced me that maybe one-third to a half of them are often difficult, to say the least.
    So about the same proportion as the rest of society, as far as I can tell from what interaction I have had with them.
  • JRetSapDoogJRetSapDoog Posts: 954
    edited 2014-05-18 02:32
    Heater, you're quite possibly right. But I've found that a very high proportion of programmers, in particular, are arrogant and argumentative. I think there's a relationship between having the ability/logic to code and being too picky or demanding when it comes to other people's behavior, as well as being insensitive, for some reason. Yep, I'm stereotyping. Guilty. Point taken. Maybe I've just had too many bad experiences with them, as I've also had with lawyers. I'm sure others can say, "Some programmers I know are among the nicest people on earth." Lucky them!
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2014-05-18 03:10
    JRetSapDoog,

    Indeed I would say that "most programmers I have dealt with have been very likeable". In decades of working with all manner of programmers I only recall one being a pain, who coincidently was one of the smartest guys I have ever met. He was the kind of guy who would complain to me "Why do I have to have all these idiots on my team when I have to rewrite everything they do myself to make it work anyway?!". Still, I even managed to get on his good side after some months when he realized that occasionally I know what I'm talking about.

    I love a good anecdote, don't you?
  • JRetSapDoogJRetSapDoog Posts: 954
    edited 2014-05-18 04:23
    Hi, Heater. Could be that my "sample size" is too small, then, making my perception distorted and my comment off base. Did you at least like my "decorum" (the core rum) pun? Yeah, I know, many puns cause people to emit groans of reluctant acknowledgement. I once got an unappreciative groan when, after a guy told me he had never eaten buffalo meat, I remarked that he should go out and bison (buy some). But before someone jumps on that to set me straight on the difference between the two beasts, they are commonly confused, and they're in the same family. And that relates to part of what I'm saying: one would do well to try to find something in the other person's words with which one can agree, instead of always jumping on people for their mistakes or partial-truths. I see too much of the latter, here. But I can accept it. And we're all learning. Still, people! As Frank said in that video I linked above, "I'd be fine if it weren't for people." But seriously: imperfections aside, we have a great forum, here (the best I've ever seen). Oh, yeah, anecdotes are fun. They aren't proof, of course, but they make life interesting.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2014-05-18 04:30
    When I worked for English-Electric-LEO-Marconi they assumed that anyone who was disabled in some way would have compensating abilities that would make them a good programmer or engineer. One of the systems programmers was an incredibly short-sighted chap who was always rather dirty and smelly, who used to use the executive lift. He was in the lift with one of the directors and peered at the director's face from a couple of inches of away, to see with whom he was sharing the lift. The director phoned the maintenance department complaining about one of their staff using the executive lift.
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 18,069
    edited 2014-05-18 05:33
    Maybe my xoom deserved that spray of coffee! Of to get a replacement, coffee that is ;)
  • Invent-O-DocInvent-O-Doc Posts: 768
    edited 2014-05-18 10:18
    Overall, the parallax forums are pretty darned fun.

    @Heater - 10,000 posts coming soon.
  • kwinnkwinn Posts: 8,697
    edited 2014-05-18 12:16
    Good thing I didn't have my mouth full when I read this. Reminds me of a programmer at a company I worked for in the 70's. He was the scruffiest smelliest person I've ever met, but a brilliant programmer. Wrote a tape drive diagnostic for me in about 20 minutes.

    First memorable incident was an office chair flying by me as I was about to step into the main corridor of the office. Seems a customer was annoying him by asking about some software he was working on. Customer managed to duck, but after that customers were not allowed in the back where he worked.

    One time my car was in for service and an urgent service call came in. He insisted that I use his car to take care of it and eventually I gave in. It was a station wagon, and the entire back seat and cargo area was filled with old fast food wrappers and containers. The stench was incredible. Had to clean it out and drive with the windows open to keep from gagging.
    Leon wrote: »
    When I worked for English-Electric-LEO-Marconi they assumed that anyone who was disabled in some way would have compensating abilities that would make them a good programmer or engineer. One of the systems programmers was an incredibly short-sighted chap who was always rather dirty and smelly, who used to use the executive lift. He was in the lift with one of the directors and peered at the director's face from a couple of inches of away, to see with whom he was sharing the lift. The director phoned the maintenance department complaining about one of their staff using the executive lift.
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