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Amazon patents photographing against white background — Parallax Forums

Amazon patents photographing against white background

W9GFOW9GFO Posts: 4,010
edited 2014-05-17 10:13 in General Discussion
I can't help but wonder if Amazon is serious about this or making a point on how broken the patent system is.

http://www.engadget.com/2014/05/09/amazon-studio-arrangement-patent/

Comments

  • GordonMcCombGordonMcComb Posts: 3,366
    edited 2014-05-16 07:45
    The Amazon patent covers a highly (make that very highly) specific arrangement, down to even the focal length of the lens and the output (very high) of the lighting. I'm guessing, but I'd assume the examiner considered this combination novel for -- as an example of usefulness -- the elimination of shadows on the background. I seriously doubt Amazon intends to sue photographers for infringement, but might have filed to prevent a competitor from doing it first, and disrupting a business practice. This is not at all uncommon.

    The patent is certainly getting attention. Even Stephen Colbert spent a good five minutes lampooning it this week.
  • CuriousOneCuriousOne Posts: 931
    edited 2014-05-16 13:02
    Average pulse duration of studio flash at full power is 9000 microseconds. Energy stored in discharge capacitors is around 600 joules. So when converting these parameters into kilowatts (as amason patent says), 40kw is nothing special for average studio setup.
  • ValeTValeT Posts: 308
    edited 2014-05-16 13:58
    I'm surprised they'd want to patent this. Why bother with such a minor thing when you have more important business to attend to (delivery of goods through the use of drones)?
  • mindrobotsmindrobots Posts: 6,506
    edited 2014-05-16 14:03
    Well, I say since they specified a focal length but didn't specify an image size, the patent is either invalid *or* if you assume a 35mm image size, then you just use a different image size and no longer will be using an 85mm focal length for the same effective image. You are then outside the specifications of the patent - Problem solved!!
  • GordonMcCombGordonMcComb Posts: 3,366
    edited 2014-05-16 16:24
    CuriousOne wrote: »
    Average pulse duration of studio flash at full power is 9000 microseconds. Energy stored in discharge capacitors is around 600 joules. So when converting these parameters into kilowatts (as amason patent says), 40kw is nothing special for average studio setup.

    Studio flashes are rated in watt seconds. Assuming they meant watt seconds, 40,000 watt seconds is a ton of light, and I bet most photographers don't have that many units. The background unit alone is stipulated at "about 10 kw." A large studio unit is rated at maybe 1kw/s.

    The "consuming 40kw" notation may be an obfuscation, since the consumption of energy does not specifically indicate a level of light -- halogen bulbs versus photoflash versus LED for example. However, this is academic as elsewhere they mention tungsten lamps and not photoflash; either way it's still a lot of light, IMO. In any case, as Rick notes the "plurality" of fairly rigid specifics suggests to me this is Amazon protecting a very specific business process.
  • Bill HenningBill Henning Posts: 6,445
    edited 2014-05-16 16:47
    In studio, I normally shot with two 300ws strobes, but I do have a 900ws and some other smaller strobes.

    Mostly I used even the 300ws at about 50%, just for faster recycling times.

    The 900ws light was mostly for my 5' octadome, the 300ws lights were plenty for 2'x3' softboxes or umbrellas.

    I was shooting against seamless white paper as far back as 2000 (maybe even 97, I'd have to check my old files) ... others for many decades before that.

    It is not difficult to do the seamless blown out background, with as little as one strobe for the background, a strobe for the subject, and a reflector.

    More strobes make it easier of course.
  • W9GFOW9GFO Posts: 4,010
    edited 2014-05-16 17:25
    I don't see what the novel part of this patent is. I don't think that anyone that knows photography sees anything special going on. What did they come up with that is not obvious to someone skilled in photography? If the patent is so specific that defending it is impossible, what is the purpose of filing it in the first place? Why would it be necessary to protect yourself by filing a patent on a specific lighting arrangement, that you are currently and have been using, (and is similar to thousands of studios) so that someone else doesn't patent your specific setup first? It is beyond probability that the competitor would use the same, highly specific setup in their patent.

    This notion that Amazon has filed an absurd patent to protect themselves from a competitor filing an absurd patent shines a 40kW light on how broken the patent system is.
  • ElectricAyeElectricAye Posts: 4,561
    edited 2014-05-16 19:26
    W9GFO wrote: »
    ...

    This notion that Amazon has filed an absurd patent to protect themselves from a competitor filing an absurd patent shines a 40kW light on how broken the patent system is.

    It probably boils down to one four-letter word: patent trolls.

    And here's another four-letter word for you: copyright trolls. Google that and see what kind of scams those type of trolls pull on random everyday people.

    I filed a patent for a general anti-troll device: it's basically a trap door that you install in your office and it drops open into a moat full of hungry crocodiles. (It does, however, raise the question of whether or not reptiles are cannibalistic.)
  • GordonMcCombGordonMcComb Posts: 3,366
    edited 2014-05-17 08:08
    W9GFO wrote: »
    If the patent is so specific that defending it is impossible, what is the purpose of filing it in the first place? Why would it be necessary to protect yourself by filing a patent on a specific lighting arrangement,

    The US has moved to a first to file system, rather than first to invent. So the first (inventor) to file gets the patent. Assuming Amazon filed to protect a business interest, there's a very good reason to do it if they have developed a business around this technique, and suspect a competitor could find out about it, "invent" it themselves, and make a prior claim. By patenting a very specific approach Amazon is protected, even if someone else now comes and patents a different technique for photographing against a white background.

    Gaggles of filings is one of the by-products that critics have leveled against the move to FTF. They have warned the change, which went into effect last year, will bring a ton of fairly meaningless patents. While Amazon filed this before the changeover, their IP lawyers would have known about the impending move at the patent office. I'm sure there are dozens if not hundreds more like this one in the pipeline. The move to FTF was one step to try to fix the patent system, and bring it into line with other countries, but here in the US it will probably have the reverse effect.

    The "novelty" can be in the various claims. I once worked for a Hollywood film lab that for years was under siege because a competitor filed -- and got -- a patent that merely combined two everyday activities.
  • TorTor Posts: 2,010
    edited 2014-05-17 09:16
    But wouldn't they be equally well protected by simply publishing their method? That's what the new system gives you, nobody can come and claim that they 'invented' anything unless they already filed a claim. And published inventions cannot (should not) be patentable.
  • GordonMcCombGordonMcComb Posts: 3,366
    edited 2014-05-17 09:57
    They would not be protected against trolling claims, and the USPTO doesn't monitor every conceivable source of publishing. They rely on the inventor to disclose prior art. It costs a minimum of $100,000 to defend a basic suit, but only a few thousand to file a patent. A clever troll will write their patent with language that appears narrow in the filing, but then they apply far broader scope for litigation. Courts in eastern Texas seem particularly sensitive to rights holders regarding these claims, which is why you see many such cases heard there.

    In the first-to-invent system, which had its pitfalls, most of this stuff was taken care of as trade secrets. The inventor kept a very good (and notarized) notebook. This is no longer considered a viable approach. IP experts are urging companies that rely on a trade secret that run a critical part of their business to seek a patent.

    Amazon's patent may be this, or it may be one of Jeff Bezos' jokes.
  • ElectricAyeElectricAye Posts: 4,561
    edited 2014-05-17 10:03
    Tor wrote: »
    But wouldn't they be equally well protected by simply publishing their method? That's what the new system gives you, nobody can come and claim that they 'invented' anything unless they already filed a claim. And published inventions cannot (should not) be patentable.

    Your point is completely valid. However, such arguments can be legally made only in court, and the way the Troll works is by threatening you with court action. You, as the defendant, might be entirely 100% safe in your argument, but you often can not even make that argument until you are dragged into a court, in which the whole freaking process of discovery, evidence, etc. must take place. Since the mere process can cost you tens of thousands of dollars, the Troll offers to settle out of court for some fraction of that. So, as a defendant, you are faced with paying what amounts to legalized extortion money or be forced to go to court and spend even more money presenting your case. This is the power of a patent troll. And in the case of copyright trolls, because the mere accusation can be so defaming, they can legally extort people for lots of money because the only way to prove your innocence is to spend even more money defending yourself. So, what you say is correct, but you don't get to say it without spending tons of money in court. That is the evil power of the Trolls.
  • GordonMcCombGordonMcComb Posts: 3,366
    edited 2014-05-17 10:13
    While on the subject of patents and the US's move to first-to-file, I wanted to point out that the USPTO did make an attempt to level the playing field for a system that is known to favor larger and more well-heeled business. They also instituted a tiered fee structure where individuals could file for very little money (not counting attorney fees if one is used, and for many patents one isn't needed if you do your research). These days you can easily obtain a patent for under $1,000 up front. As a so-called "micro entity" you can get a provisional patent for under $100. You have to cough up more money if and when the patent is awarded, but it's still at historical lows. The idea is that the increase in filings (many of which will not be award) will help to pay for more thorough examination of the others.

    It is a common misconception that the title of the patent broadly applies to the invention. It's just a way to name the invention, and the claims themselves spell out what is actually covered. If you read the Amazon patent, what seems as obscenely generic is actually so specific and unique to them that it is practically meaningless to the photographic art as a whole. It's insurance for Amazon, and little more.
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