Status of the "Spin Language" with LEARN/Simple IDE
Oldbitcollector (Jeff)
Posts: 8,091
I'm curious with the "Powers that be" regarding the status of the Spin Language with the LEARN site as well as it's implementation in Simple IDE.
I'm not seeing coverage on LEARN, it looks primarly "C" based.
Will the Spin language continue forward or is it being slowly phased out?
Just need to know if I should be jumping trains. I continue to be a big fan of Spin, but not objective to digging more into C.
Thanks
Jeff
I'm not seeing coverage on LEARN, it looks primarly "C" based.
Will the Spin language continue forward or is it being slowly phased out?
Just need to know if I should be jumping trains. I continue to be a big fan of Spin, but not objective to digging more into C.
Thanks
Jeff
Comments
Suggest all new developments be made in C.
As far as I know it's still the way to get the most functionality into a Propeller. C compiled to LMM is much bigger. Not sure about the CMM thing.
Certainly it is still the easiest way to program a Propeller.
Should we ever get a Propeller II into our hands that assessment may change as it is not planned to have a Spin interpreter in the ROM and there is a lot more RAM to play with.
C gets attention in education because of revenue opportunities.
BTW have you seen this? OpenSource PropellerIDE
Spin and C will be supported by Parallax, and more importantly by our customers. You use both languages for reasons cited above, and you should count on us to support both of them in the future. Spin is designed close to the heart of the Propeller and appeals to those wanting something different, and C is used by the masses and education. Production customers so far are using Spin/ASM but a few are now using C.
Both languages, all the time, equal treatment! I think Jazzed's post above is proof around the importance of open source Spin support in multiple OSs.
Ken Gracey
What created the question in my mind is the LEARN site. I couldn't find any Spin examples or projects that used Spin.
There are several amazing spin hardware and software projects which would seem to be good additions. Then again, perhaps this is simply not the direction of LEARN.
Jeff
Thank you!
That would seem to be a good item to add to LEARN...
Jeff
. . .because the primary purpose of the site is for in-classroom use by students and teachers, and they want C. We've talked about this before, in person.
Ken Gracey
http://learn.parallax.com/propeller-board-education
You will also find Spin code examples in all of the Microcontroller KickStarts:
http://learn.parallax.com/KickStart
Of course, the Propeller Education Kit & text are still available; that simply predates the web site.
However, the Parallax Education Team is currently focused on developing the Propeller C Tutorial program, in response to long-standing requests from the educational market.
On the main page of LEARN, there ARE Spin projects, but they are not stated as such, while several C items are stated as "Propeller C".
Once you click into any project, there is a new menu which appears on the left side (see attatched) which DOES have a way to sort Spin projects.
If this menu appeared on the main page, it would give the apperance of Spin having an equal voice and probably would have averted the question from this direction.
Jeff
You asked what prompted the question.. I answered...
I understand that LEARN isn't geared in this direction, but it does leave one curious when it appears from the homepage of Parallax that things are heading in a new direction, that being C. It's not unreasonable to have direction changes and adjustments. I'm noting that Parallax Semiconductor has merged back into Parallax.
Edit, I think I'll duck back out now.. It appears that I'm only frustrating the "Powers that be". My intent was to better understand the current direction. When asked how the question arose, I'm only trying to convey the thought-process-path so that it can be understood and perhaps adjusted if desired.
Thanks, My original question is answered. Sorry, if I added frustation in my attempts to provide helpful information on how I arrived at the question.
Jeff
Seriously, I would have much preferred to teach robotics with the ActivityBot in Spin instead of C. In either case, so much is pre-packaged that students don't really learn the language anyway -- only how to make funciton calls to library methods. So I don't see much advantage in throwing total support behind a language to which students become only peripherally exposed, yet still have to suffer its syntactic annoyances.
I think my students have learned a lot about robotics (but very little about C). I also think we could have covered still more ground in robotics with a language that didn't get so much in the way.
I well understand that C is what most educators demand and that that demand has to be met. At the same time, perhaps those educators need to be educated about productivity in the classroom and making every session count. I think a curriculum using Spin would beat one in C hands down in classroom productivity.
Anyway, I admit to bias in the Spin vs. C debate, so a grain of salt should probably accompany this post.
-Phil
Jeff has a good point...
The front page of learn.parallax.com has references to tutorials on C, the Basic Stamp and the Activity Bot (which links to its C-based tutorials), but no mention of Spin. Going deeper, the tutorial for the Propeller BOE is definitely filled with Spin examples (http://learn.parallax.com/propeller-board-education). Maybe just a link for that tutorial should be on the front page.
I think the issue is more about just the exposure to Spin as its own entity, not the lack of good examples and tutorials. Just a sprucing-up with links to the tutorial would help
dgately
We have talked internally about Spin support on Learn and I've brought it up several times primarily relative to ActivityBot (not what you're directly referring to). We're pretty slim on resources internally as we switch gears to summer Educator's Courses. If and when you see Spin for ActivityBot, I think it'll appear without side-by-side tutorials in C, but as a complete zipped code library. And this wouldn't be able to come from Parallax - we'd have to rely on customers. Several accomplished coders have expressed interest in writing Spin for ActivityBot but those discussions have not turned into real commitments.
I'm not cranky - maybe just a little bit today - but I'll let you know we're doing our best to make our decisions with you and for you, whereas the label Power that Be (if that includes us, Jazzed and other tool creators) implies we're acting on our own. We don't want to behave that way.
Ken Gracey
I just needed to make sure that what I show them will not leave them lost when I send them to the Parallax site.
I'd rather show them friendly Spin, but not objective to jumping trains.
As for me personally, you guys can do whatever you want. I don't care. I have Propeller Tool, BST, and now Simple IDE support for Spin.
Heck, I don't care if I'm the last guy still using Spin on the planet. I'll wget the entire obex.parallax.com if I start really feeling nervous.
Jeff
It looks like I'll be doing this again next year. If I have a choice by then, and if the "powers that be" in the school permit it, I'll probably switch to Spin.
-Phil
Just tell them it's Python ;-)
Major changes to website navigation are being planned, which will make it easier for folks to browse to content by various criteria. In the mean time, the home page is designed to make it quick for a person to find the documentation for the EDU robot kit they purchased.
As for newcomers and students, I believe C is the way to go, because C programming is much more likely to play a major role in their life as compared to Spin.
John Abshier
It's coming to an MCU near you: http://micropython.org/
Nothing like Spin of course.
Which library would you like?
Which library would Parallax encourage?
There is a Spin library git repository ... should that be used?
BTW, the Open Source Propeller IDE is open to new feature development. I would rather it be open source than open sores.
You will have to ask Parallax which library they would encourage. Again, I know of only 1 for Spin.
I went to http://git-scm.com/ and searched for spin with no matches. Does Parallax have a link to the git repository?
I think that Spin should be provided with a library at a minimum consisting of software perpherials ( I2C, SPI, UART, PWM, etc.) and support (squishy definition) objects (floating point, mouse, keyboard, TV, VGA, servo, quadrature encoder, numbers, license, stack length, etc.). Objects for Parallax products (Ping, compass, etc) can be on the product pages.
I want you to know that I do appreciate the work you have done supporting the Propeller. Skills that I don't have. I also believe that I, like some other people on the forum, am several standard deviations away from the centroid of Propeller users.
John Abshier
https://code.google.com/p/propsource/
Library is here:
https://code.google.com/p/propsource/source/browse/#git%2FDevelopment
John Abshier
As long as the repository is official and is less than a few MB it doesn't really matter what it contains.
I just need an answer from Parallax about what is acceptable to include in a package. All I hear is crickets right now.
since OpenSpin and your IDE are supposed to be a replacement for the Prop Tool the only Library making sense is the Library, Demos and Examples contained in the Prop Tool installation.
Almost all spin projects will use them as a reference. The Prop Tool has no way to set any libraries, it just uses this single location.
So why using something different as that?
confused!
Mike
Because library files can change and a stale package is not desirable.
On the technical side, once the gadget is built and ya have to do is point the gadget to the source files. Any code updates are immediately published without having to create new images or modifying the base page.
While I have a lot on my plate, I'd be willing to help in any way that I can.