The new P1+(P16x512A-) chip, what will you do with it?
Rsadeika
Posts: 3,837
Parallax
So, should the new board be something like the C3 or PropBOE or Activity Board or Propeller Platform? Or should it be something new and innovative, but what? At this point I am still scratching my head trying too figure out what would really be needed. Hopefully somebody will come up with some neat ideas that result in a relatively affordable solution.
Ray
Since the P1+ chip will probably not be available in a 64 pin DIP, that means for most of us we will have to rely on somebody making a board that will suit your needs. I thought I would open a thread to see if there will be anybody other than Parallax that will be jumping in too produce something. Also, I think that this may be good place to express some ideas as to what you would like to see, in terms of a board, that would suit your needs. I am user not a maker of boards, so I am interested in who will be jumping in and what they will be making available. And it looks like Parallax is still on track to be selling the P1+ chip in December 2014....This time we won't be making a bunch of boards, too. We're supporting and leaving it to the ecosystem to grow with us.
So, should the new board be something like the C3 or PropBOE or Activity Board or Propeller Platform? Or should it be something new and innovative, but what? At this point I am still scratching my head trying too figure out what would really be needed. Hopefully somebody will come up with some neat ideas that result in a relatively affordable solution.
Ray
Comments
I envisage:
1) I need simple and cheap. A 64 pin DIP format, say, with everything on board to run the chip.
Plus a USB programming/communications socket at one end.
Plus, if it can drive it, an ethernet jack at the other end.
External RAM not required.
2) Add on board for Raspberry Pi. Gotta leverage those two million Pi users. I guess Bill will be on this.
3) Perhaps possibly a Propeller board that has a DIMM socket to accept the up and coming Raspberry Pi compute module. With some extra bells and whistles, like the USB, Ethernet, HDMI sockets the Pi can drive.
Propeller 1+ Project Board USB - it's a good, general purpose workhorse and can be built into low quantity commercial products.
Propeller 1+ Activity Board (and/or something that replaces Activity Board and PropBOE) - education programs will eat that up.
Quickstart + - A quickstart footprint with the 40 pin header the same as the Quickstart and then an additional 40 pin header in place of the touchpads/LEDs. This will allow folks to use Quickstart daughter cards plus open up a market for QuickStart2 daughter cards.
Maybe a PCI-E card like was discussed for the P2 - not so much as a platform for itself but as a precursor for the P2 if it is still intended to be a PCI-E plug in module.
Parallax needs to pick a footprint for their expansion cards so if people want to jump on a standard, there is a standard to jump on. I've bene here three years and I've seen "official support" for the Propeller Platform come and go and then lukewarm support of the QuickStart footprint. Plus the other various platforms the third party guys are coming up with...plus some attempt at Arduino shields.
The third party guys are going to be having fun. I bet there's a DIP footprint on someone's computer just waiting - expose as many pins as you can, build on some (optional) goodies - great for breadboarders.
There will be something like the C3 that can be a standalone development system. Give it an interface to program a P1/P1+/P2 and I think you have a winner there (plus all the cool things the C3 can do).
Modularity doesn't always mean that you have to stack the board. You can plug in from the side, or even use flexible cables. It would be nice to see an LCD ribbon cable plug on one of these boards with maybe a 3x4 keyboard input as well.
A board with a substantial memory expansion (maybe SPI SRAM) seems attractive.
A board with the new Propeller 1+ and a Propeller1 providing user interface services seems logical.
A board for the BOEbot is almost a cultural requirement, but is it really forward thinking?
But the biggest problem is that I don't know what I want... I just know what I don't want. I don't want really tiny minimalist style boards that are hard to handle, next to impossible to wire, and have no holes to mount into a chassis.
Having an option to NOT use a barrel plug to power the board is very appealing to me... like the Propeller Project Board. I understand that barrel plugs somewhat protect idiots from reversing polarity and destroying the board post haste; but when it is the only power input, it creates problems as well.
I personally dislike USB powered board as well. Nice for demos, but not a great long term solution for building a real project.
I have several special boards planned but when I first played with the P1 I did make a board that had the lot, Ethernet, PS/2, RS-232, RS-422/485, USB serial, VGA, Audio, Dual SD, optional ARM co-pro etc, all except prototyping area. This was useful for me to test out a lot of interfaces and this time I might do the same again but better and also allow my various Puppy modules to be added for all those special interfaces or for prototyping as I find it easier to add parts to plug-in matrix boards rather than "hard-wired" to a base board.
BTW, I hate all this dumb reference to the next in line from the P1 being referred to as a P1+ when it is not a variant in the slightest, it is a very different chip and what the P2 was meant to be and much more. Call it a P2 or a P2+ or even a P16 but please everyone, don't refer to this as a P1 of any kind.
P.S. shouldn't this thread be over in the P2 forum?
A simple Proto-Board would be another great addition. I prefer one without the USB connection as I can just use a Prop-Plug. Love those things.
Finally, I agree with Ross. A couple of really distinctive boards with a good set of experimental hardware globbed on makes a lot of sense. With the capability of the new chip, seeing one of these with a nice compliment of SDRAM, wide bus access that makes sense, buffered DAC outputs, large boot flash chip Megabytes, SD card, appropriate regulators and headers, keyboard, USB, Mouse, VGA.
On the DACS, personally I would love to see 4 or 8 RCA connectors, or maybe some great daughter board type thing that can be ribbon cabled onto a group of headers. The DACS will see a lot of use, input, output, audio, composite video, other... Having robust, easy to use connectors would be a plus in my book.
Chip originally referred to it as a P16X32B, which I think is better than P1+ or P2. Has he revised that nomenclature somewhere? If so, I missed it.
Ross.
Being able to be powered by USB is a must for any board that is intended for use by desktop hobbyists.
I do agree it is not required on boards intended for production use - but the first few boards will definitely be primarily intended for experimentation and to show off the capabilities of the chip.
Ross.
I'm hoping somebody will come up with a PII design with a SODIMM socket that will accept one of these:
http://www.raspberrypi.org/raspberry-pi-compute-module-new-product/
Of course such a board will also need to provide ethernet, USB, and HDMI connectors to allow the ARM to breath.
But then there are ather ARM SODIMM offerings that could be contenders http://www.karo-electronics.com/tx6.html
http://www.toradex.com/products/colibri-arm-computer-modules
With a board like this we can run the Propeller dev tools on the ARM. A self contained system for robots and other gadgets.
I agree. A cheap and cheerful board that can be USB powered is so convenient. My PropASC board used to travel with me and my laptop everywhere. Always ready for a quick hack or demo to anyone interested.
Of all the suggestions that have been made, a dev kit has not been mentioned, but then Parallax will probably have too fill that space. So, if it is a dev board that comes first, what should that look like. A couple of USB sockets for a mouse and a keyboard; a BT(class 1 or class 2?) unit instead of XBee; an SD socket with drivers to handle up 64GB cards; VGA socket that will do 1080p?; Of course sound; and what do you do with the 32 pins that are left? What if 512KB RAM is not enough, how could more be handled. But the one thing that concerns me is the COG RAM, 496 bytes, yea there will be 16 COGs(cores), but will there be built in restrictions? What else did I miss?
Maybe Parallax should reconsider manufacturing something like this in China? Or maybe some company in China can license the tech from Parallax, not all products being made in China is junk.
Now I have to think some more on what I would like see in an every use type board, and that is ...
Ray
Yeah, let's just have everything done in China, we can all just flip burgers here.
What's the flipping point of encouraging kids here to learn about technology when there won't be any jobs.
$%^$ China!
Chris Wardell
Amazingly the Raspberry Pi project shows that it is possible to make stuff in the west at competitive prices. The Pi boards are made in a Sony factory in Wales that used to make televisions. However they are making millions of units and the massively automated production facility only employs about 30 people.
Where do we get the money to spend when nobody has a job?
Chris Wardell
Don't confuse cost, price and value.
Define "dev kit" - a PPDB like board has been mentioned, a Activity Board and BOE type board has been mentioned. These range from dev kit to demo boards in their functionality and features. Most of the items you list below are in soe form or another on the Activity Board or on the BOE. Maybe those features sound more like demo board features....so we're back to needing a definition for "dev kit". Um, use them for I/O for whatever you want to develop that already isn't on your dev board? Talk to other Propellers, talk to RasPi, blink LEDs, play? use those extra pins for external memory of your choosing? You mean having 16 cores each with 496 registers that can also be used to execute code? That sounds pretty darn exciting and marketable to me! 512KB of Program/data memory that can is shared by 16 cores? That sounds pretty darn exciting to me too! Of course there will be restrictions, of course there are limitations - any physical device has these. No, No, nobody said that.
I actually like the idea that I can buy American made products. I'm at the age where it gives me a warm fuzzy feeling to have a country with some manufacturing capability. I'd like to see more US made durable goods.....of course I'd also like to see durable goods that really are durable goods and not commodities.
What is an every use board???
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If I have to start thinking about the high cost of the available units then maybe this is not the hobby that I should be involved in.
Ray
When you find that "inexpensive" hobby, please let us know......I haven't found one yet!
Amen brother!
The question I have for you is this... do you want to learn how to make your own boards? We're willing to teach you.
That is just the sort of board I gravitate to. I eschew big cluttered boards full of ancillary stuff. Let me add, myself, just what the task needs and nothing else..
There is definitely a place for both. Something similar to the propeller project board to handle those projects where you only need a few additional chips, and a small dip module that can be plugged in to a board full of logic, I/O and drivers when that is required.